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I would like to get people's thoughts on kyu kumite. Like it? Waste of time? What is essential to doing it well? What is it trying to teach? Does it really help you in free sparring?

Here are some of my, mostly negative, thoughts:

- The stepping seems awkward. Two whole steps backward in each pass? Very inefficient/slow way to move. Slidding is faster and more stable.

- Two wa ukes as a defense against a punch-punch combination? Is this really what wa ukes are about? I'll give you good money if you can pull off two wa ukes against someone throwing a realistic punch-punch combination.

- Why so much retreating? I almost never retreat in free sparing. Are we training bad habits? ... in people's first exposure to kumite no less.

- And what's with the lame punches. Only karate people punch like this. Chambering between strikes? I've never seen punch combinations like these in 'real' fighting.

- Where's the continuation? One punch/kick to the ribs is the end of most of the sequences... is that going to realistically put anyone out? OK, so maybe we're learning controlling movements--on the grabs that proceed the punches/kicks. But if I have control of someone, a punch to the ribs is not first on my agenda. I'm going to try to put them down with something far more devestating. And I'm going to follow it up until I'm sure they're out.

Granted, mindset counts more than anything. And if you do this exercise with great intensity you probably will get something out of it. And of course we need to start people off somewhere. Throwing them into a UFC as their first fighting experience surely is not the way to go. But, I find it difficult to justify this exercise. Show me what I'm missing!

- Tim

Good Morning Tim,

Here, ladies and gentlemen, is a PERFECT example of the discussions going on in this Forum, and on Gary K.'s forum. Namely, the "right" way to do yakosuko(sp) kumite!

If, at Dan ranking, you (no one person intended) do Kyu Kumite in such a manner that:

- You do two, time-wasting, full wa-uke blocks

- Do "lame", chambered punches

- Do it without "mindset"

- You can't visualize other targets, other
than the one you are hitting (which, yes, we are hitting there for safety).

Then you're doing it incorrectly.

Gene

Tim,

I believe all the prearranged kumite are great. We do a number of them at my dojo. They are intended to help you get into the freestyle fighting with the knowledge of technique, balance, moving, and eye-distance.

Like Gene says, it depends on how you train it with how much you get out of it. I teach white belts the fullness of each technique and the proper stepping, etc.;however, that is not the way I do it. My suggestion to you, is to find a partner and do kyu as a freestyle match. Screw the proper stances and use your most comfortable fighting stance. Punch from realistic positions and not chamber, and use the blocks in a more realistic manner. Not full blocks but only the parts that actually affect the attack. And for God's sake, use movement. Not just back and forth, but to the sides and angles as well.

I think you'll get something out it then!

yours in budo,

mike

Tim,

I actually find that kyu kumite is much more "realistic" than dan kumite. The combinations are simple - just don't cock the punches. Yeah the double wauke is lame, but the blocking/parrying and countering movements on #2 and #3 more than make up for that. I actually think it is a great exercise for beginning to intermediate level students.

Dan kumite, however, reminds me of overlong chorography for the many bad martial arts movies I saw as a kid. No way will you ever find that much effective attack/block/parry/counter in any exchange in real time.

Interesting to see the differences in perspectives.

david

Thanks Gene and Mike. I thought I might get answers like yours. "Technique, balance, moving, and eye-distance" seems to be exactly what prearranged kumite is trying to teach.

Mike writes: find a partner and do kyu as a freestyle match

I do this often; it can be a lot of fun. I don't believe kumite/bunkai should be multiperson kata and I don't practice them this way. And yes, the value of anything depends on how you practice it. Sanchin, Kotekitae, kata, sparring, etc. all will be of no value if you have no passion.

But this doesn't address the underlying question--you can say the above about anything. If you play basketball with great intensity it may very well help you develop a tough mindset, but I wouldn't play basketball to learn to fight.

So... Let's take the easiest example of chambering. The way I have seen kyu kumite taught to new students involves a lot of chambering. I can see why you might want to get your students to chamber in hojo undo or Sanchin, but I can't see why you would want to take this over into kumite, why you would want to teach it (here) to anyone (even kyu ranks). I see chambering as a crutch; you do it in hojo undo to let new students (hopefully) feel some power in their strikes. But ultimately you want to take the chambering away and ultimately one point of Sanchin is to develop explosive power very, very quickly (without chambering).

My question is, then, are there things in kyu kumite that we shouldn't be teaching to anyone (no matter if, as we advance, we despense with the formality and make it a lot more flowing, realistic and powerful)?

- Tim

[This message has been edited by Tim Ahearn (edited 12-10-99).]

There is a lot I think everyone is missing when it comes to kumite, dan or kyu. When performing kata, we all know that it is good to visualize attacks and strikes so the kata has a practical purpose. That's well and good in the mind but how do you know you can really pull this stuff off? The only real way of knowing and getting it right is to do some prearranged sparring like the kumite where blocks and punches are thrown in full speed. And the only way to make sure that you can actually pull this off in a real sparring match is to practice those techniques in full speed over & over & over again; until you can pull them off with your eyes close or with the someone who really has speed and power behind them. As far as double wa-ukes, full steps and chamber punches, they are all very useful. Performing a wa-uke block might be a simple task for you, but are you *so* efficient at it that you would be able to perform 2 of them off double punches? You'd never get there unless you tried it over & over. And the chamber punches, you might not always be in position to use an explosive sanchin to deliver power. Chambering is a great alternative, i.e. try punching with someone holding down your gi on your opposite arm; your not going to get much power to break free unless you chamber. And how about full stepping vs. slide stepping. If you are always slide stepping, are you going to be ready to retreat enough to cover a block on a skipping front punch or kick? The bottom line is this: open of the imagination and your arsenal of punches and blocks for things that you might be able to pull off in sparring. Repetition in kumite (regardless which one) will help you realize things that work for you and things that don't. I good practice for you if you think that it's lame is to make it not lame. Make the moves work by getting them down to a science where you can pull them off. Don't always rely on techniques you do well, you might not always be in the best position to perform these techniques.


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:> Ken

Tim

The reason people are taught to chamber their punches from the beginning of there studies is so proper technique is learned. Chambering a punch teaches you how to put your hip and stance into the punch. It helps you keep your elbow behind the punch. Helps you relax the arm while keeping the shoulder down and the lat focused. If you want to get power out of a short punch from Sanchin, the majority will never achieve it by jumping right into it. It's a long process of learning how your body mechanics work, and the easiest way to learn it is by chambering your punch. So when do you incorporate chambering your punch out of your study? Never. The greatest athletes in any sport are the ones that constantly practice the fundamentals. Now that's not to say you'll never learn a more efficient punch, it just takes time. You need to crawl before you can walk, and walk before you can run. Kyu Kumite is there to help people start to walk.

Same goes for the Wa-uke. You ask why do two, full Wa-uke? Because we ALL need the practice! I don't agree with practicing a shorten Wa-uke, it may seem at the time to be more efficient. But you're also working in a controlled environment with out any pressure. When the sh*t hits the fan, most techniques will become shorten and sloppy as it is, so why practice it that way? Your only hurting your self when the pressure is on.

Kyu Kumite is just one of the many teaching tools in Uechi, just like Kata, sparring, or conditioning. Each one has something different to offer and each one has its limitations. Each one will be viewed differently depending upon the person studying. But only a complete study of all will bring forth the correct technique.

My teacher says, "I'm not teaching you Karate I'm teaching you how to practice. With enough practice Karate is what emerges."

I have a little theory that sometimes when people start hitting the dan ranks they tend to forget that at one time they didn't know and understand all things Uechi and that you need to walk before you run. Please, this is not meant to insult anyone, just to point out that we all don't start out at the black belt level. So here are my views on kyu kumite from a kyu rank perspective. I don't practice KK to learn to spar or fight. I practice it to get the feel of the basic moves, timing, intent, and distancing. It also helps me to get use to having someone come at me...I'm a notorious "flincher". I get hit enough times during KK to know if I don't follow the basics I can't get the moves to work against a stronger opponent. If I don't keep a good sanchin, I'm going to be pulled off balance. Granted in KK it does have the defender stepping back, but I don't count this as retreating, but as learning to maintain the proper distance. KK does have 2 parts: a defense and an attack. I think it's during the attack side, that you work on moving into the defender. Anyway, I find KK to be highly valuable and though I don't use it to learn how to spar, I find that the knowledge I gain from it does improve my sparring and my kata. It's like anything else we do, the benefit comes from how much you put into it.

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Shelly

I hope people don't think I'm too down on kyu kumite (or prearranged kumite in general). I'm not. I believe it to be a valuable tool when practiced correctly. Their are miriad ways to perform prearranged kumite and my comments are not meant to be relevant to all of them. Certainly no one would have trouble justifying the way Mike Murphy's group demonstrates kumite/bunkai at camp.

Chambering:

Paul, no disagreement here. I think we're saying pretty much the same thing about what chambering teaches (Nor do I believe, Ken, chambering has no place in kumite/bunkai--just it seems inappropriate at the point we see it in kyu kumite). But, we chamber in kata, in hojo undo, in Sanchin, in Kotekitae, in everything. We do it enough; I question doing it in partner exercises (at least in the manner it is currently done). Take the mechanics we learned in kata, say, and apply them somewhat realisticaly in kumite. That's what kumite/bunkai is about, isn't it?

Double wauke:

I understand the need to do waukes over and over and over again. How else can one learn to do them right? But, I guess its all a matter of how you're interpreting the kumite (at that moment). My point was not that we don't need to practice our waukes, it was that two waukes is not a reasonable defense against a punch-punch combination. (The way I see it, you've done something wrong if you need to do two waukes in a row.)

And Shelly, your point about needing to walk before you run is well taken (I think I addressed it breifly in my first post.)

So... It seems we can all defend kyu kumite... But, does anyone have anything critical to say? Is there anything you don't like about the way you see it taught? Would you change anything in your prearranged kumites?

- Tim

Tim,

Your point is well taken about wanting to do Kumite as realistically as possible without hurting your partner. But Shelly makes a good point about it being a Kyu-Kumite. Remember this Kumite is being taught at the white to green belt level, where control is a definite question. Certain restrictions need to be in place. Hence one reason why your always backing up on the defence. One of the things I was taught when I first learned Kyu Kumite was to think of it as a retreating Kumite. Make your Wa-Uke blocks soft and gentle. Your block is literally being done with your feet. When performing it that way with someone who really knows what they're doing gets very frustrating. When your going in full boar trying to nail this guy but all you hit is air, and the most you feel is a slight brush on your arm from the Wa-uke, that's when Kyu Kumite can become very humbling. It's very easy to be hard and want to bash everything that comes near you when you first start studying, but it's very difficult to be soft. And I think that's one of the main goals of Kyu-kumite to help teach a person the soft side of Uechi. Possibly another reason for the numerous Wa-Uke blocks. Doing two very soft Wa-Uke blocks in a row on somebody trying to punch through your spine can easily take the attacker off balance since he/she expects some resistance. Try it sometime, if you don't already, and watch the frustration appear on the attacker's face.

As for doing things differently if I had a choice. Of course I would especially in the last part when the attacker throws a kick to your head, the defender catches it, throws it away, and finishes with a punch to the back of the head/neck. If I caught somebodies kick I would NEVER just throw it away. The fist thing that comes to mind is a snap kick to the groin, or a sweep to the supporting leg, or both. But don't get caught up in "Why is it done that way?" "I would never do this". These Kumites aren't meant to be the end all be all for each technique, they're just examples. Though of course there is nothing wrong with thinking I would rather strike to the throat here, or kick you in the groin there. That's the beauty of pre-arranged Kumite it starts out restrictive but can be expanded when the student is ready.

Tim

What a great thread you've started here. And great responses too.

I do not want to be redundant here. So I'm going to make a few points. Isolated, they may seem disjunct. But taken in the context of the other good responses, they will add to what has already been said.

ITEM 1

Since I know you, I'm not quite sure exactly why you are so concerned with chambering. But let's address this, and I'll separate it into lead attacks, follow-up attacks, and counter attacks

First of all, I don't even allow a white belt to chamber on the first (lead) punch. And I know for a fact that George does this the same way. The very first attack should be done in a manner that considers that you are attempting to bridge the gap between you and the opponent, and do it without getting nailed in the process. Pulling the arm back to a chambered position or doing anything that would "telegraph" your intent would indeed be suicide in practical application. At the very least, even a beginner should throw the very first punch from sanchin, realizing that one is basically attempting to do the real damage once you have entered into the fighting range.

OK, so now what about the subsequent attacks? Well from the attacker's standpoint, a great lead attack that explodes into the defender and puts them off balance affords you the time and protection (best defense is a good offense) to chamber the subsequent technique - IF YOU CHOOSE TO DO SO. A chambered attack will have more power, so should be done if you ever set yourself up to do so.

What about on the defender's end? Well basically in blocking, one really never chanbers in kyu kumite until the end. And the way I teach kyu kumite, I tell people that THIS kumite is all about completely controlling your opponent before delivering your counter-attack. Again - as I teach it - you should have AT LEAST a half second where you have grabbed and controlled the person you will hit. If you aren't, why not? Might as well close the fists and do generic blocks and play the one who hits the most/first wins. So....IF you have controlled your opponent, you now have the opportunity to bring your fist way back in a chambered position and send it through your opponent until you envision it coming out the back of their gi. THAT is what control affords you. No control? Better not chamber!!!

Yes, Tim, the advanced student who has developed the Bruce Lee patent-pending one-inch punch can resort to just doing a quick, explosive, whole-body attack from the sanchin elbow-up-front position. But 99% of practicing karateka aren't there....yet. So in the mean time, you do what it takes to make this counter attack count. This means that a beginner needs to chamber more than an advanced student TO ACHIEVE THE SAME OFFENSIVE END.

What about in real life? Well watch a really good boxer in slow motion some time. When the left hand goes forward, the right hand comes back....some. Even in the best. No, it doesn't come all the way back to fist-beside-rib position. But there is a certain degree of "mirroring" that one does between limbs that affords the best power for individual movement and the best flow from movement to movement. This means that chambering happens in real fighters and real fights, but not to the extent that you see it when a kyu rank is just trying to feel and experience the motions and the kinsesthetic sense of the flow (thoughts that Shelly expressed herself).

ITEM 2

Stepping back twice is a problem? Where were you when Gary Khoury was teaching his sparring classes last camp? (And I know you were there.) Gary and I "spar" a lot in our ideas, but this is just the fighting spirit that two passionate karateka display. Actually when I view someone like Gary teaching sparring moves (as I did in August), I see him do things that even he doesn't know he does well. I even told him that after viewing his class. One of the things that Gary was teaching was how to handle a charging opponent, and counter when the time comes. You know what? His foot movement was RIGHT OUT OF KYU KUMITE. And the blocks were all there. No, Tim, he was not doing two full circle blocks. But he was demonstrating how he would step back several times until he got back in his left stance and had his right hand (he openly admits he hates to hit with his left) cocked and body coiled, ready to explode. Then BOOM, he fires a body-stopping blow that wins him a point, and in the real world might set him up to finish off an aggressor.

This is not unlike how a real fight may progress. I personally am not one to throw the first blow. That's my personality and disposition, and I need to deal with it. In several instances I've had someone attack me and it took just a brief period of time to realize what was going on and how I should respond. In the 2 circumstances I am thinking of, they got several attacks off, and then my own right (I'm just like Gary in that sense) exploded without me even realizing what had happened. And yes, there was a brief "retreat" period before I had my wits and my balance about me. Yes, that is a real attack/defense scenario (in my own very limited experience). The good guys don't usually hit first, but they do hit last.

When we get good at this though, we no longer do linear movement back. Mike Murphy alluded to that in his response. Diagonal stepping is a start. The REALLY good ones end up with net forward movement (even if forward and slightly to the side). It's hard to do that in kyu kumite without interrupting the flow of the exercise. But in reality, we should be so lucky or that good that we make a perfect response to the fist attack....game over.

ITEM 3

As they say, timing is everything. And in this case, I am speaking about the timing of one movement in your body with respect to another.

Let's take it at the most fundamental level. When most beginners attack in kyu kumite, they 1) step, 2) punch, 3) step, and 4) punch. When they get a little better, they don't wait until they have completed the step before they begin the punch. That is suicide. You do not walk into someone's attacking range without something to do (preferably an attack). So at an intermediate level, the person completes the attack at the end of each of the steps. But the process should not stop there. Good fighters do not waste energy. When your foot makes noise at the end of a step, you are dissipating energy. What a good fighter will do is lead with the attack, and make the fist hitting the target be a sound that happens before the feet stop your body. I call this "break timing". That way, you send more energy into the opponent, and THE PUNCH GETS TO THE DEFENDER FASTER. In fact...so fast that it's very difficult for the defender to recover. This is kyu kumite at a very advanced level.

The same can be said about the timing between the block and the counter. In the beginning, it's block/chamber, then counter. But in the end, you can - on some techniques - change the timing so that the block and counter occur simultaneously.

ITEM 4

Yes, Tim, if I were the Uechi King and my subjects had to obey me, I would choreograph a new kumite. But I think I would leave kyu kumite alone. As Paul_C says, it is "kyu" kumite after all.

For my renshi, I submitted a series of partner exercises that were interpretations of the hojoundo. I went out of my way to do things different. In many cases, I used sliding steps instead of full steps for the attacks and defenses. But you know what? I find that these are very difficult for people to learn. Hmmmm.... part of my development of those 12 exercises then was to separate them into beginner, intermediate, and advanced ones. And the difficulty with the intermediate and advanced ones had more to do with movement than anything else.

Wierd....even though movement is so crucial to good fighting, it is one of the last things that a student of fighting absorbs. All the beginners really know how to do is stand still and swing. It takes a while before they can walk and chew gum...play the guitar and sing. We need to take it one step at a time (sorry...).

- Bill

Does anyone believe that there is some reverse reasoning going on here? We have our conclusion (kyu kumite) and we are going to come up with theories to support it.

Is prearranged kumite really the best way to, as Mike says, "get you into freestyle fighting with knowledge of technique, balance, movement, and distancing"? If not, what is the best way? Is it prearranged kumite at all? Bag work, "in air" sequences, one/three step sparring drills, etc.? (I'm sure you'll say all of the above AND kumite/bunkai ... but indulge me) I'm not saying prearranged kumite is irrelevant.

Bill, lengthy response, as always. I am not obsessed with chambering and did not mean for it to become so central to this discussion. Oh well. How could I disagree with your description of correct chambering? I couldn't; I don't.

The problem is, and this is the crux of my whole argument, that I don't see many people chambering in the manner you describe. I see people starting the sequences with a somewhat floppy lead punch, pulling their other hand back to their side (statuesque). No explosive first strike driving the other person back-- giving you the split second you need to drop your elbow to your side slightly and really explode into your next technique. And this is not just white belts. I see this sort of thing in dan ranks--karate frozen at its most basic form. Does no one else see this? Am I crazy? (I hope not.)

Bill also wrote: Where were you when Gary Khoury was teaching his sparring classes last camp? I attended a couple of those. Must of fallen asleep during that segment. Stepping back is not the end of the world, and can be applied effectively. Though for me, I find it somewhat awkward as applied in the kumite. Anyone else find it so?

Ultimately, it comes down to what you are comfortable with and can apply effectively. Ultimately, you shouldn't be concerned with whether you are in a left lead or right lead; do what comes natural, what works for you.

Still, there was more to my original comment about stepping. And the point is made nicely by Bill: When we get good at this though, we no longer do linear movement back. Mike Murphy alluded to that in his response. Diagonal stepping is a start. The REALLY good ones end up with net forward movement (even if forward and slightly to the side). It's hard to do that in kyu kumite without interrupting the flow of the exercise. But in reality, we should be so lucky or that good that we make a perfect response to the fist attack....game over. It's hard to do kyu kumite with this advanced movement without interrupting the flow. And this can mean that we end up training bad habits. We don't want to interupt the flow so we alway retreat. Make a perfect response on the first movement, you say... Fine by me.

- Tim

Tim

Points well taken.

To be fair, I've been in discussions with Gary online here where he basically says that kyu and dan kumite are bull**** past a point...that you can only learn to fight by putting the gear on and entering the sparring ring. I see his point (bad pun). And yet I see him do some things very well that I in turn can teach a "slower" student (99% of the rest of the world) in a fixed format exercise like kyu kumite.

This is just an exercise and it has its place. But to some it's a very useful exercise. As a dojo instructor, I've done my best to assure that people don't get hurt in my class. One of the rules that I have that seems to work is that I never let anyone spar until they have completed tests that include (among other things) ukemi, kotekitae, kanshiwa bunkai, and kyu kumite. By then I know they understand the concept of blocking (if not the practical application) and I know they'll have some degree of control over their attacks when the s*** hits the fan in a free-form format. I also know they can take a hit and they won't crack their skull if they fall. It has worked amazingly well for me. I've observed sparring in a lot of dojos over the years. I've seen people arm themselves to the teeth with protective gear and still get hurt. And yet I've operated Uechi dojo with sparring with people using damned little in the way of protective gear. And my people get hurt less!

Is there a better way? Good question. If I were to pick some methods that I like at least equally well, they would be the kinds of things they work on in Wing Chun. The format is the same, but their techniques and applications are different. The hand trapping moves are very nice. The many possible sequences are nice. The movement is nice. The very direct responses to attacks are exactly the kind of things that I think you would like.

If I had a bias, I would like these prearranged kumite of our style to look a little more like those in this Chinese cousin. To me, they have taken a Fuzhou style and have applied ill-fitting kah-rah-tee clothes. But...that's my personal bias.

There are other approaches that are nice. Styles like jiujitsu or aikido work on one-steps, and the defensive responses to them. So do many karate styles. But these simple sequences lack the ability to work on flow from technique to technique. Without a string of attacks to respond to, that flow is then only learned in the freeform arena.

- Bill

While I agree with what has been said, I think of the basics, that start with kumite.

To me, the idea is to establish right habits and build confidence in offense (correct stepping and punching) and defense (correct stepping and blocking).

Timing and distance are variables the student should begin to appreciate. There should be some effort, by the teacher, to control them at this basic level.

On offense, most students should learn to begin their step and punch at the same time and likewise end the punch when the foot stops. That simple precaution insures the variable of timing... that the punch has a base (that the student isn't throwing the punch lunging ahead of his feet) or on the other extreme, isn't leading with his face.

On defense, the variable of distance should be set by the defender. George used to say 'see the eyes and feet at the same time for proper distance'. That way, you can neither be sucker punched or lunged at (blocking a thrown arm).

Once those things are understood and learned, the teacher can concentrate on the blocking movement (and the defenders stepping). The block too, should start and end at the same time, for the same reasons. The defender should look like he has confidence in the block, not moving in advance of the punch or behind the punch (he should move with the attacker as one unit), no flaying of arms, or bending at the waist.

Blocking and moving backward should not be uncomfortable and to isolate the problem, it is important to first make sure the basic attack is sound, then watch for the students distance, timing and movement to ascertain the problem.

Those are the important things as I remember them (for student and teacher).

Please continue.


[This message has been edited by Phils (edited 12-10-99).]

Your kyu kumite sems to have an analogy to our Ju Jutsu wazas and Tae Kwon Do one steps or three steps.

An insight which I have had but recently is that there is no real difference between the conceptual people and the technique people (ala JKD and JKD Concepts) if you realize that we all do concepts; some merely explain it better than others.

Example: Our first Chung Do Kwan TKD one step is from a front right punch to the face. The defense is to step at a 45 degree angle forward in a horse stance to 2:00, simultaneously blocking with a left high, inside closed fist block (plam toward your own face while punching a traight right twist horizontal punch to the face of the opponent.

When teaching it to the white belts, I point out that they are learning concepts , not just a techinique:
1) avoid the strike;
2) zone into your opponent;
3) block the strike;
4) do not depend just on your avoidance or just on your block;
50 counterattack simulataneously from a well balanced position.

When viewing from a conceptual position, I realized that what we were learning was optimum body mechanics. Of course we won't be able to chamber each punch - but if we could, if everything was working for us, this would be the way to deliver the best punch while maintaing the balance among stance, power, stability, follow up, etc.

Each situation will be unique and your mileage will vary. But I believe kyu kumite/one steps/three steps have their place if not taught as literal truth and the only techniques to use. They don't teach flexibility, they don't teach much in the way of reaction. They do teach timing and placement - and concepts.

INHO, of course.

student