Will a throw really work in a self-dfence situation?

Will a throw really work in a self-dfence situation?

Postby Senosen » Fri May 12, 2000 1:46 am

I know that throws work in training.
Very effectively. But isn't that just because of the gripping that you and your uke have, and the fact that he/she is waiting for you to do that?

If someone is running at you or trying to push you constantly (I tried this once at karate and it was very difficult), how can you throw the person? You might be able to grab their arm and then tuck in really quickly (for a shoulder throw) but isn't that kind of risky? Wouldn't it be easy for the opponent to slip a choke on you right when you turn around..

Maybe I'm missing something, or doing the throw wrong, I don't know.

Any pointers for this kind of situation?

------------------
Attack the attack
Senosen
 
Posts: 23
Joined: Sat Apr 15, 2000 6:01 am

Will a throw really work in a self-dfence situation?

Postby RA Miller » Fri May 12, 2000 7:09 am

Senosen-
Strange forum to choose for this question, however...
Throws work fine. Especially against a committed attacker or one who closes to grapple and hook punch. I have used O-goshi and koshi guruma and uke goshi in real encounters. Various colleagues and students have used the same throws effectively. They give you the advantage of keeping your feet while taking the threat to the ground with a lot of damage.
Disadvantages- most practitioners are taught to follow through to protect uke. You have to get over that.

The only one that got me in big trouble was attempting a sacrifice throw in a multiple opponent situation. I took considerable damage from the other one.

Rory
User avatar
RA Miller
 
Posts: 818
Joined: Fri Apr 14, 2000 6:01 am
Location: Ptld OR USA

Will a throw really work in a self-dfence situation?

Postby Evan Pantazi » Fri May 12, 2000 12:02 pm

Senosen San,

Your post has got me to thinking why I haven't looked into whether Kyusho could add anything to throws. As Professor Wally Jay always says..."There's so much to learn"...

There is one that comes to mind (I don't remember the name as I have been out of Judo and Aikido for so long)...the throw is off a charge where you step inside the attack at a 45 degree to grab the neck, turn pulling it into a downward circle to flip the assailant.

As far as the Kyusho goes the slap could be an open palm to GB-20 and ST-6 simultaneously to have the shock help weaken the structure of the opponent.

Another thought on this is that this strike will have a tendancy to jolt the head back...so either the flip won't occurr and the opponent will swan dive to the matt, or they will flip over to their back. This is all on speculation as I never tried this and probably won't as either fall would have some safety issues to it.

Does anyone have the name for this throw?

------------------
Evan Pantazi
users.erols.com/kyusho
Evan Pantazi
 
Posts: 1897
Joined: Thu Sep 17, 1998 6:01 am
Location: N. Andover, Ma. USA

Will a throw really work in a self-dfence situation?

Postby student » Fri May 12, 2000 12:49 pm

Kali Mera, Pantazi-Sensei:

After my last disasterous interpretation of which throw you meant (my mistaking a judo Seoi Nage for an aikido Shiho Nage), I really ought to hesitate....

Oh come on, did you really think I wouldn't join in? Image

Depending on right hand placement (assuming a right side throw), you could be describing either koshi guruma (hip wheel), wherein the right arm goes around the opponent's neck and secures him to the body in a side headlock, or (which I believe to be more likely) tsuri komi goshi (lift-pull hip throw), wherein the thrower is very low, hips against the opponent's thighs, and the right arm is almost straight up behind him, right hand grasping the collar of the opponent roughly at his left carotid level.

Genjumin could probably describe them better, or know which one you mean. John!

student,
whose applications of Judo has been roughly equivalent to Wile E. Coyote's applications of Acme, Inc. products: They Work In Theory - Or For Others. Image

[This message has been edited by student (edited May 12, 2000).]
student
 
Posts: 1064
Joined: Mon Nov 08, 1999 6:01 am

Will a throw really work in a self-dfence situation?

Postby Kyle » Fri May 12, 2000 7:42 pm

Senosen:

It only failed because you were trying to force it. Throws, like any other technique, must be executed at the right moment. If a throw does not seem like it will work, do not attempt one. Here is a pointer though: before attempting a throw or takedown, control their balance. If you have the opponent's balance, you are free to excersise any number of options.

Pantazi Sensei:

I have found that most strikes work wonders with throws. Proper throws rely on stealing the opponents balance and a good strike goes along way for interpupting someone's mental and physical balance. I do not know much about pressure points, but I'd imagine that they would be a very big help.

If there are any kyusho strikes that will really "daze" a person I think that those would complement throws very well.
Kyle
 
Posts: 16
Joined: Thu Jan 27, 2000 6:01 am

Will a throw really work in a self-dfence situation?

Postby Jake Steinmann » Fri May 12, 2000 10:18 pm

Could be a kaiten-nage (The Aikido term)...

Jake

------------------
Defeat is worse than death. You have to live with defeat - Seal Team Slogan
User avatar
Jake Steinmann
 
Posts: 1184
Joined: Fri Apr 30, 1999 6:01 am
Location: Newton, MA

Will a throw really work in a self-dfence situation?

Postby Evan Pantazi » Fri May 12, 2000 11:10 pm

I don't remember the name, just the flight.

It is a one hand slap/catch to the side of the neck that pulls the opponent in and head down for a flip. It can be done standing (after much practice) and usually done as Tori goes down to one knee.

Student San,

Calla, Calla...but that's it for Greek except the great explicatives. I was raised in mostly Greek until 5, then lost all of it, actually when I visited Greece last year some expressions came back from my childhood...Shupee sapata calo, Kootalla, Vrea, and Mr. Codriote...(please pardon the Americanized spelling).

------------------
Evan Pantazi
users.erols.com/kyusho
Evan Pantazi
 
Posts: 1897
Joined: Thu Sep 17, 1998 6:01 am
Location: N. Andover, Ma. USA

Will a throw really work in a self-dfence situation?

Postby Malcolm Wagner » Fri May 12, 2000 11:52 pm

Greetings all,

I am always looking for oppurtinities to use the eight Isshinryu precepts in conversation, and it looks like I have the chance with the "when to throw" question. "The time to strike (throw or any action) is when the opportunity presents itself". If you go into a confrontation with a plan, it will usually not work because of the variability of what your opponent will do. When I first started studying ground-work, I was always looking for my opponent to roll and give me his back so that I could choke him---I found myself trying to make my opponent do what I wanted him to do---obviously I was wasting much energy. I learned to relax and flow with my opponent, and started doing techniques when they presented themselves. If an opponent comes at you with a "rock" technique, don't play rock with him, play water. Throw only if a throw is presented to you.

Thanks for the time,
Mal Wagner
Malcolm Wagner
 
Posts: 155
Joined: Thu Apr 06, 2000 6:01 am
Location: Maurepas, La., USA

Will a throw really work in a self-dfence situation?

Postby RA Miller » Sat May 13, 2000 12:27 am

Evan,
Your throw is probably Koshi guruma, a full entry hip throw with the arm wrapped around uke's neck.

One of the big differences between jujutsu and judo is the forced refinement of judo. Judo randori is very much like a chess match where you wait for your opponent to expose a weakness or try to trick him into one. Jujutsu allows you to beat the opponent into a state of weakened balance. Kneed in the bladder, most people bend forward, setting up uchi mata. A palm heel to the chin makes rear sweeps like osoto gari and ouchi gari very persuasive. A good grip on the hair really increases the physical and mental leverage of a hip throw.

Kyle, you made a great point about the right time. To expand on it, most people try to throw in the wrong direction. Marc McYoung in his section on stance integrity explained the "Happo no kuzushi" better than anyone else. This post is already getting to long, but basically a few ounces of pressure in the right direction is more effective than fifty pounds in the almost right direction.

Rory
User avatar
RA Miller
 
Posts: 818
Joined: Fri Apr 14, 2000 6:01 am
Location: Ptld OR USA

Will a throw really work in a self-dfence situation?

Postby Senosen » Sat May 13, 2000 12:38 am

Okay, I think I know what I was doing wrong.

All I was thinking about was the throw and I didn't worry about any other techniques.

I guess I should just flow with the opponent more and use whatever is presented.

--Thanks

------------------
Attack the attack
Senosen
 
Posts: 23
Joined: Sat Apr 15, 2000 6:01 am

Will a throw really work in a self-dfence situation?

Postby Joe Swift » Sat May 13, 2000 12:17 pm

Hi all,

Just a bit of common sense advice that I recently heard from a mentor of mine, Murakami Katsumi (Hanshi 9-dan, direct student of Chibana Choshin, Kyoda Juhatsu, Inoue Motokatsu, Shimabuku Taro, Toyama Kanken etc etc etc) on this very subject.

"A body in motion is very light, one must learn how to exploit it."

Yours in Karatedo,

Joe Swift
Mushinkan Dojo
Kanazawa, Japan
Joe Swift
 
Posts: 21
Joined: Wed Sep 29, 1999 6:01 am
Location: Tokyo, Japan

Will a throw really work in a self-dfence situation?

Postby genjumin » Sun May 14, 2000 11:53 pm

Student says:'John!"

<Poof-Genjumin appears:-)>

Yes? The throw could be Koshi guruma from Judo, but sounds more like a te waza(hand throw,) perhaps more like tekubi nage(hand neck throw from Aikijutsu do) or even a tenchi nage (heavenand earth or 'splitting' throw from Aiki or shuai chiao.)

As I have some small passing acquaintance with pressure point theory and practice:-) I will tell you all that it does indeed augment if you slap the palm directly across the back of the neck at base of skull, then guide the now stunned attacker over and onto his back on the mat.

This also works great combined with a sidestep back into a kibadachi against a shoot attack.

<Pidiboff! Dissapears back into the mist.Hi, Evan!:-) >

Oh, by the way, the no touch works best against ones own students who have been accustomed to it. Don't think it's too practical in self defense except against a real sensitive guy, like Rich Mooney mentions. That's the lore on this one from China, though for me, the jury is still out.

Genjumin
genjumin
 
Posts: 209
Joined: Thu Aug 19, 1999 6:01 am
Location: Vincennes, In, usa

Will a throw really work in a self-dfence situation?

Postby Evan Pantazi » Mon May 15, 2000 11:48 am

Genjumin San,

Ah so you know the base of the skull slap, it's a great way to shock the opponent before the throw. I've also found that if the Uke is sitting and you use this slap that they will feel the electricty run right down their back.

As for the No Touch, let me say that this is just the beginning of the research. Just the fact that it does work is amazing enough, and look at the distance Sifu Mooney can cover. Applicable in combat? Jury is still out so far, but like I just mentioned let them work it for about 10 more years and what are the possiblilities going to be then. All in all it should be fascinating.



------------------
Evan Pantazi
users.erols.com/kyusho
Evan Pantazi
 
Posts: 1897
Joined: Thu Sep 17, 1998 6:01 am
Location: N. Andover, Ma. USA


Return to Grappling (For Stand-Up M.A.)

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest

cron