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I've come across a couple of articles lately which state that some of the popular techniques today were ineffective on the battlefield. Looking at two such techniques, the triangle choke and the cross arm bar. The triangle choke can be countered by a good bite to the inside of the leg or worse.
The same is true of the cross arm bar. According to the articles these techniques grew out of the sport growth of Judo and later BJJ. But were not preferred techniques of old Jujitsu. Theres a few more techniques also if you think about it.
I believe Bruce Lee countered a cross arm bar in Enter the Dragon with a well placed bite!
But is this not true if you nail these techniques quickly, not giving them the opportunity to sink their teeth in?
f.

I think it was rarely used because of the possibility of being bit. Or it could have been the armor preventing it. The info in the classical jujitsu book just stated that it was rarely used prior to the late 1800's before the introduction of Judo. The technique was around before judo, just rarely taught. But with the rules it was able to be effective.
It just isn't fair that a technique that requires that much skill and practice can be defeated by something as simple as a bite.

Would you use it Joe say in a bouncing situation in a club?
fred

Fred, I'm a little confused. If the triangle choke evolved from sport Judo, which I'm sure it did...how was it found to be ineffective on the battlefield at a much earlier date?

I feel that there are pros and cons to every martial arts technique. All techniques have a list of weaknesses...does this mean we should use none of them?

As to being bit while executing the triangle...OUCH! that would ******!!!

Later buddy

Joe P.

I attended a seminar by Michael Depasguale Jr. (sp?) where he was demonstrating the cross arm bar.

One participant pointed out that he could be bitten.

Mr. Depasquale’s reply was – “Yeah, but that’s when I break his arm.”

I think that we should remember that in NHB fights the cross arm bar is used to submit an opponent, therefore, it is applied in a manner that can allow the opponent some time to respond.

If it was used in the street it would be to break the arm thus it would be put on fast, hard and full force, therefore not giving the same time factor for the bite to take place.

As for the triangle choke, yes you are in a position to be bitten, but if it is cranked on, as it would be in the street, well ... the chances of the bite diminish (nothing disappears completely).

Rick

The reason battle field styles of jujutsu look different on the ground is less to prevent the enemy from biting you (or something equally distracting) than from having someone stick a spear in your back. Mobility and alertness, which require a fairly upright stance, were keys.

Some of the differences...

The older styles assumed and used a weapon. Ideally, the enemy went down, you slammed your full body weight on the point of your knee either to the back of his neck or his lower spine and then shoved a knife or short sword, his or yours, into his neck. In an un-ideal situation, where you were brought down, you tried to take him with you- which can turn into a scramble that looks a bit like later sport grappling, but with an emphasis on getting weapons into play or disarticulating the spine.

There are no submission holds- what we think of as submission holds are just stages in a disarticulation, quickly passed through.

Take downs are targetted, meaning that the force is either focused on to a bad place, such as the point of the shoulder or a bent neck, or is combined with a lock (all of your weight plus all of the bad guys weight landing on his locked wrist and shoulder is crippling). Or targeted in the sense that he lands on something bad... such as your raised knee across the lower back or nape of the neck. (Seeing a pattern here? When fighting armed men in armor, breaking the spine is the way to go.)

For want of a better example, look at the battle scenes in Braveheart and imagine trying to wrestle in a surging mass of armed men. Scared, angry armed men. And charging horse. Don't forget the 3/4 ton beasties with the sharp hooves. You can't stay down in that environment.

Which brings up another difference, time. A duel or sparring is as much a battle of wits and will as it is a test of strength or skill. But in mass battle, every second might bring on more opponents or give an archer a second to aim at you. You have to finish the enemy in front of you, now, because the rest of his clan is right behind him. And if you don't finish him befor moving on to the next, he'll be crawling after you, to stick a knife in your knee while you fight with his brother.

Okay, that was long winded.

Rory

Rick,
Depends on the skill of the guy putting that arm bar on. I've fumbled with it in contest for quite a while and if you don't have it right, that's when they get you. I have also seen national level judo competitions when a guy seemingly has it, but the guy resisting has enough flexibility that he can take it. Gracie senior continued fighting in the 50's with a broken arm also, tough guy just never gave in! Not to say the technique doesn't work, just takes a lot of mat hours.

Rory,
Nice post, sometimes we forget the vicious world these arts come from, I'm sure a lot of throws were different then as well. Judo has a kata which was descended from fighting in armor, and it looks quite different from the throws I've seen. I love that movie braveheart, my Scottish grandfather made me read a book about him when I was 12, always thought it would be a great movie.
F.

[This message has been edited by f.Channell (edited May 31, 2002).]

Fred, you had asked if I would use the triangle choke from the guard position if I were a bouncer (which I was , for Brothers Security out of Brockton for about three years.

The answer is yes I would. I would if I were put in a situation where using that technique would be the best option at the time.

The quard position, in a real fight, is not a primary fighting position. The guard is to be used when you have become overpowered, or out-skilled, and find yourself in an inferior (on the bottom) position.

Yes, in sport Judo and BJJ it is used much more often.

If, while acting as a bouncer, I get overpowered and find my self on the bottom and had to use my guard, I would perform the triangle choke if the attacker managed to put himself in a position where one of his arms was left in my guard and the other one out. Many times, when an attacker doesn’t know the guard, he will punch and flail wildly. This gives the person on the bottom the opportunity to execute the triangle.

Great thread Fred!

Joe P.

PS. I do feel quite comfortable using the triangle choke. I won two of my seven NHB fights with it.

Joe,
I got a lot of work to do on my triangle choke. I did almost get a nice gi choke on in my last tournament from the guard but wasn't quite deep enough to get a submission. Thats why I'm coming over saturdays in july when my weekend classes end! Interesting to know you would use the triangle on the street, biting might not come that natural to someone after all.
f.

Fred, I look forward to seeing you on Saturdays. I can show you how to apply the triange so that the opponent's mouth is covered to minimize the risk of getting bit.

Joe P.