http://www.newsmax.com/archives/article ... 2158.shtml
In other parts of the country, he would have been given a medal. But he was in NYC and the local politically-motivated DA just can't grasp the Right of self-defense. The local NYC DA obviously has been listening to too much British propaganda.
A father goes to Jail for protecting his children!
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Guest
kind of *****
okay 1 day for not having the proper permit.
2 days for not killing the perp?
This guy is the victim, he was protecting his family in his version of the castle.So he had an unregister firearm his paper work was wrong......hell he took out a stranger in his kids room . Kind of tramatic. If the police can't keep this scum out of your kids room some one must do the job.....paper or no paper. Pin a medal on him!
This is crap!
Someone should have shot the DA. That's the real EBG in this story.
Actually thats not very pc of me. Let dad out of jail!Put the DA in jail with the wounded perp.Maybe he can share a cell will the B&E specialist. Who knows maybe they can develop a close relationship while inside.
Now that would be justice.
Laird
2 days for not killing the perp?
This guy is the victim, he was protecting his family in his version of the castle.So he had an unregister firearm his paper work was wrong......hell he took out a stranger in his kids room . Kind of tramatic. If the police can't keep this scum out of your kids room some one must do the job.....paper or no paper. Pin a medal on him!
This is crap!
Someone should have shot the DA. That's the real EBG in this story.
Actually thats not very pc of me. Let dad out of jail!Put the DA in jail with the wounded perp.Maybe he can share a cell will the B&E specialist. Who knows maybe they can develop a close relationship while inside.
Now that would be justice.Laird
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benzocaine
- Posts: 2107
- Joined: Wed Jul 09, 2003 12:20 pm
- Location: St. Thomas
Felon
One other thing that ***** about this poor guys plight is that he now has a felony charge on his record. Doesn't that mean he can't vote anymore or own a gun? Makes me sick!
I am glad I live in VA where we fry our capital murderers and you don't need to register you guns.
I am glad I live in VA where we fry our capital murderers and you don't need to register you guns.
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flavor flav
- Posts: 58
- Joined: Sun Nov 03, 2002 6:01 am
wow, so this guy goes to jail... he didn't even kill the robber.. and yet years back some kid gets blown away (killed) on halloween night for showing up in a costume to the wrong house... and the guy in that case gets off free?
this just happened again recently too. some teenager played the oldest prank in the book, knock on the door and run away... and he gets shot in the back and killed... I wonder if the shooter in this case will go to jail?
the whole gun debate is mind numbing. there are soooo many different sides. Here a father protects his house and children in a pretty standard way and he is in big trouble... and on the other hand, you can get away with shooting first ask later...
sad.
this just happened again recently too. some teenager played the oldest prank in the book, knock on the door and run away... and he gets shot in the back and killed... I wonder if the shooter in this case will go to jail?
the whole gun debate is mind numbing. there are soooo many different sides. Here a father protects his house and children in a pretty standard way and he is in big trouble... and on the other hand, you can get away with shooting first ask later...
sad.
Canadian sounds off
Maybe I'm overstepping since I just joined this afternoon, but I'm interested in the variety of topics you have on this site, and I like debates.
Registering guns (although I support it) has little to do with the outcome of a potentially violent situation - if you're defending your family you're not going to put the gun down because you forgot to fill out that federal firearms registry form. All the same, the father *did* break the law. And from what I understand, the criminal was (or will be) duly punished by the American penal system. It's not as if they let the criminal go while they punish the father for not having a piece of paper. Jaywalking is illegal - everyone does it and no one really says anything, but you *are* breaking the law, and a cop on a particularly nasty day could write you up for not using the crosswalk.
This may be slightly harder for me to understand because our Canadian constitution (to us) is not the venerated document that the American constitution is (to you); but I don't think you should be able to pick and choose the laws you want to obey. If you obey the law about being allowed to carry guns, then you should obey the law about no jaywalking, no littering, no not-registering your guns.
Having said that, if anyone came near my children (should I ever have them) and tried to hurt them, I wouldn't think twice about killing to defend them. I think that on a lot of levels that's a parent's perogative.
Registering guns (although I support it) has little to do with the outcome of a potentially violent situation - if you're defending your family you're not going to put the gun down because you forgot to fill out that federal firearms registry form. All the same, the father *did* break the law. And from what I understand, the criminal was (or will be) duly punished by the American penal system. It's not as if they let the criminal go while they punish the father for not having a piece of paper. Jaywalking is illegal - everyone does it and no one really says anything, but you *are* breaking the law, and a cop on a particularly nasty day could write you up for not using the crosswalk.
This may be slightly harder for me to understand because our Canadian constitution (to us) is not the venerated document that the American constitution is (to you); but I don't think you should be able to pick and choose the laws you want to obey. If you obey the law about being allowed to carry guns, then you should obey the law about no jaywalking, no littering, no not-registering your guns.
Having said that, if anyone came near my children (should I ever have them) and tried to hurt them, I wouldn't think twice about killing to defend them. I think that on a lot of levels that's a parent's perogative.
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benzocaine
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- Joined: Wed Jul 09, 2003 12:20 pm
- Location: St. Thomas
The guy was in the process of getting his gun registered. It's not like he was carrying it concealed out on the streets.This may be slightly harder for me to understand because our Canadian constitution (to us) is not the venerated document that the American constitution is (to you); but I don't think you should be able to pick and choose the laws you want to obey. If you obey the law about being allowed to carry guns, then you should obey the law about no jaywalking, no littering, no not-registering your guns.
Twiggy
As much as I hate to say it, I think Al Gore had a good idea by making gun permits national. That way we wouldn't have this bullsh!t New York pushes on people. Imagine.... I could actually carry my gun from VA to Mass without worrying that I'll be jailed!? Huh, go figure.
I thought our constitution gaurantees the right to bear arms. Isn't that our NATIONAL constitution which is supposed to suprecede state laws? Didn't we fight a huge war over states individual rights?
And even if he was, why would that be a problem? He wasn't a criminal intent of harming anyone, he just wanted to protect and defend himself and his loved ones.benzocaine wrote:The guy was in the process of getting his gun registered. It's not like he was carrying it concealed out on the streets.
No, Al Gore's position was that if all gun owners had a national permit, then the Feds would be able to outlaw and confiscate their firearms easier. Bzzzzt, thanks Al, but No Thanks! You can carry from VA to MA legally in some cases. If you are licensed at your point of origin and licensed at your destination, then you can transport in between. (See the FOPA, "Firearms Owners Protection Act", it's Federal Law, but often denied by the gun-grabbers.) (IE: many of us have licenses in multiple states and certain states have reciprocity as well. While few states have reciprocity with MA, there are quite a number of states that have reciprocity with NH, FL, VA...)As much as I hate to say it, I think Al Gore had a good idea by making gun permits national. That way we wouldn't have this bullsh!t New York pushes on people. Imagine.... I could actually carry my gun from VA to Mass without worrying that I'll be jailed!? Huh, go figure.
Yes, there was a war fought over State's Rights. State's Rights died at Appomatox. The reason that the Second Amendment isn't nationally recognized is simply because it hasn't been "incorporated" under the 14th Amendment. Sometime when both of us have time, I will tell you the expensive tale of my ex-brother-in-law who believed it was a national Constitutional Right and that his home-state license was good throughout the US just as his driver's license or marriage license were! He ended up in a costly situation facing a free long-term stay in NJ because of it.I thought our constitution gaurantees the right to bear arms. Isn't that our NATIONAL constitution which is supposed to suprecede state laws? Didn't we fight a huge war over states individual rights?
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I won't bother explaining the difference between "lawful" and "law-abiding", but suffice it to say that one of the reasons that society works as well as it does is not because people are "law-abiding", but rather because the majority of people are "lawful". Enough of that for now... to your statement...Twiggy wrote:Having said that, if anyone came near my children (should I ever have them) and tried to hurt them, I wouldn't think twice about killing to defend them. I think that on a lot of levels that's a parent's perogative.
I don't know anything about you Twiggy (beyond the fact that you're obviously from Canada and I have a few assumptions where you stand on some issues, but those are just my personal assumptions based on one post and I can easily dismiss those to avoid any incorrect preconcieved notions). To tell the truth, I don't have to know you to posit the following scenerio, it is based strictly on the quoted comment.
Now, you may well be a 250+#, umpteenth-degree balck-belt in a dozen styles of martial arts... Or you may not. No difference. Even though I assume from your alias that you are female, there is really nothing that dictates choices of login name. No difference.
Let's suppose that you don't own any firearms at all. And let's suppose that you haven't made the appropriate pre-planned arrangements for the safety of yourself and your children. And let's suppose that a group of 4-8 street thugs break in to your home. Now... what do you suppose are your chances against this group of drugged up punks who want to rob you of your possessions, group sodomize you for hours and serve your delicious children on your good china with a little hollendaise sauce for their twisted cannibalistic initiation urges? Would your chances be better if you had a nice, polymer-framed, hi-capacity, semi-automatic handgun with night-sights, loaded with good hollow-point Federal Premium Hydra-Shok Personal Defense ammo and a bright tactical light? Would your chances increase even more if you added monthly practice and the attendance at some tactical firearms training courses? (Supplimenting your continued advanced-dan martial arts training, of course) Now, would your AND your children's chances increase exponentially if you add to those things a pre-practiced safety plan (including such things as a safe room and emergency provisions)? Currently, governments are registering, restricting, banning and confiscating firearms of various sorts. Thus removing that choice for defense of your self and loved ones. The next thing that may be restricted, banned or otherwise stopped is your study of martial arts. Really, who needs to learn how to hurt, maim or KILL others with their BARE HANDS! ohmygawd! It's a slippery slope to take away your God-given Right to self-preservation. And if you think that isn't a possibility, simply look to England, were self-defense in your own home routinely getes the home-owner charged for "violating the rights" of the perps. happens all the time there, especially since they basically banned the private ownership of firearms... And regardless of claims to the contrary, the cases are well-documented and numerous.
Think about that the next time you wonder why some of us are so adamant about maintaining our Right to Keep and Bear Arms. And remember, that when Government has all the power, they have the power to take everything away from you.
Take care...
==================================
My God-given Rights are NOT "void where prohibited by law!"
My God-given Rights are NOT "void where prohibited by law!"
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benzocaine
- Posts: 2107
- Joined: Wed Jul 09, 2003 12:20 pm
- Location: St. Thomas
Are we not already in a national database every time we (legally) purchase a gun? I'll do some research to educate myself more about this... but I though Uncle Sam already knows I have a couple of guns.No, Al Gore's position was that if all gun owners had a national permit, then the Feds would be able to outlaw and confiscate their firearms easier. Bzzzzt, thanks Al, but No Thanks! You can carry from VA to MA legally in some cases.
I don't like the idea of them knowing I have guns.. but they do. I am just thinking of ways to work with what we have, and right now we have states like NY and MA that make it pretty damn hard to bring a legally bought gun there.
Finally back to take a look at the board, and I've got a few things to say, that is, if my right to free speech isn't compromised.
Taking care of a small issue first - sensing a lack of respect for a feminine presence on the board, particularly for one so un-martial as to choose the name of a 1960s supermodel. I specifically choose not to mention my training, my style(s) or my skill level because I don't feel that any of this has any relevance to a debate, although I do notice that several people bring this up in their posts. You can learn from a novice as you can a master. Youth and intelligence are not mutually exclusive.
Take a look at this and tell me that guns in the hands of the untrained are a super idea! http://www.cbc.ca/cp/world/031111/w111152.html
I'm not anti-gun. I like guns. I've been around them all of my life. But in Canada, when you're NOT using a gun, it has to have a trigger lock on it, it has to be in a cabinet and locked up, and the ammunition must also be locked up in a separate part of the house. I suppose the idea is so that by the time you get your gun unlocked and together, you'll realize that shooting your husband's lover isn't such a cool idea after all.
You're talking about killing human beings, not shooting haystacks or tin cans. The fact that you can be so glib about shooting another human being makes me more afraid of you than I am of that stranger walking down the street. Martial arts is supposed to be about body, mind and spirit - do we teach the skills to kill without teaching compassion to temper them? Buddhism teaches that every living thing has the same needs and desires as every other living thing. By that logic, if I am on a bus on the way home, can I safely assume that the guy sitting across from me is thinking about raping me when we get off? Or is he probably thinking that he misses his mom's spaghetti and that he's tired from work?
If you prefer a Christian perspective, the prayer of St. Francis is another example - "Lord, make me an instrument of your peace; where there is hatred let me sow love, where there is injury, pardon; where there is doubt, faith; where there is despair, hope; where there is darkness, light; and where there is sadness, joy." Not, where there is the possibility of danger, let me sow 10 rounds of bullets in somebody's ass.
If you're agnostic or atheistic, easily obtained statistics will tell you that Canadians own more guns per capita then Americans, and we have about 3% of the American murder rate. This isn't to say that Canadians don't get mad and want to kill people; anyone who says that hasn't watched enough Montreal/Toronto hockey games. Maybe it's because we don't walk around with them in our purses, glove compartments, desk drawers, pillowcases, night tables, kitchen cupboards... or maybe we just can't remember where we put the keys to the gun cabinet.
With all due respect Panther, my response to you on protecting yourself from the government is simply that you have a very undemocratic political system (not that Canada's is any better, because ours is probably equally bad, if not worse). And if it hasn't been updated since 1776, then you should start writing letters to Congress and your other elected representatives and begin campaigning for government reform. Better yet, run for office yourself and change it from the inside. Of course these days, dissent can brand you as a terrorist (or worse, unpatriotic and a wussy pinko communist) so you might want to check out local anti-terrorism laws before you start waving any signs.
Looking south, I see a culture that markets fear. Fox News seems particularly bad for this - all of their broadcasts prominently feature rape, murder, abduction, assault, break-ins, new diseases, killer bees, etc. They report every single fearful incident, but they neglect to tell you nice, normal everyday things because that's not what people want to see. People tune in to know how many murders happened so they know how many bullets to buy the next time they're in WalMart. Fox doesn't care about the 50th wedding anniversary of Joe and Jane Smith or the annual Girl Scout cookie sale, because that's just not scary enough to report.
I respect your opinions as gun-toting American citizens because I can understand why you feel the need to arm yourselves. But I don't feel that need. I am aware of the risks and choose not to walk alone down the street at night. I don't walk anyway and pack a Glock 9 in my purse so that I can shoot people in case they make threatening gestures at me, because frankly, I'm not prepared to point a gun in someone's face, pull the trigger and watch their brains fly out the back of their head. Maybe that will be the death of me, but then again, maybe it won't.
In debate, the point is not to bully someone into your point of view, but simply present your own viewpoint and your reasons for supporting it. The winning side is not the one who convinces the other side of the virtues of its own opinion, but rather the one who presents the best argument. In order to have a debate, you must have a contrary position TO debate; that is what I am providing you with. If you choose to censor what I have to say, then you're going to have rather dull discourse.
Taking care of a small issue first - sensing a lack of respect for a feminine presence on the board, particularly for one so un-martial as to choose the name of a 1960s supermodel. I specifically choose not to mention my training, my style(s) or my skill level because I don't feel that any of this has any relevance to a debate, although I do notice that several people bring this up in their posts. You can learn from a novice as you can a master. Youth and intelligence are not mutually exclusive.
Take a look at this and tell me that guns in the hands of the untrained are a super idea! http://www.cbc.ca/cp/world/031111/w111152.html
I'm not anti-gun. I like guns. I've been around them all of my life. But in Canada, when you're NOT using a gun, it has to have a trigger lock on it, it has to be in a cabinet and locked up, and the ammunition must also be locked up in a separate part of the house. I suppose the idea is so that by the time you get your gun unlocked and together, you'll realize that shooting your husband's lover isn't such a cool idea after all.
You're talking about killing human beings, not shooting haystacks or tin cans. The fact that you can be so glib about shooting another human being makes me more afraid of you than I am of that stranger walking down the street. Martial arts is supposed to be about body, mind and spirit - do we teach the skills to kill without teaching compassion to temper them? Buddhism teaches that every living thing has the same needs and desires as every other living thing. By that logic, if I am on a bus on the way home, can I safely assume that the guy sitting across from me is thinking about raping me when we get off? Or is he probably thinking that he misses his mom's spaghetti and that he's tired from work?
If you prefer a Christian perspective, the prayer of St. Francis is another example - "Lord, make me an instrument of your peace; where there is hatred let me sow love, where there is injury, pardon; where there is doubt, faith; where there is despair, hope; where there is darkness, light; and where there is sadness, joy." Not, where there is the possibility of danger, let me sow 10 rounds of bullets in somebody's ass.
If you're agnostic or atheistic, easily obtained statistics will tell you that Canadians own more guns per capita then Americans, and we have about 3% of the American murder rate. This isn't to say that Canadians don't get mad and want to kill people; anyone who says that hasn't watched enough Montreal/Toronto hockey games. Maybe it's because we don't walk around with them in our purses, glove compartments, desk drawers, pillowcases, night tables, kitchen cupboards... or maybe we just can't remember where we put the keys to the gun cabinet.
With all due respect Panther, my response to you on protecting yourself from the government is simply that you have a very undemocratic political system (not that Canada's is any better, because ours is probably equally bad, if not worse). And if it hasn't been updated since 1776, then you should start writing letters to Congress and your other elected representatives and begin campaigning for government reform. Better yet, run for office yourself and change it from the inside. Of course these days, dissent can brand you as a terrorist (or worse, unpatriotic and a wussy pinko communist) so you might want to check out local anti-terrorism laws before you start waving any signs.
Looking south, I see a culture that markets fear. Fox News seems particularly bad for this - all of their broadcasts prominently feature rape, murder, abduction, assault, break-ins, new diseases, killer bees, etc. They report every single fearful incident, but they neglect to tell you nice, normal everyday things because that's not what people want to see. People tune in to know how many murders happened so they know how many bullets to buy the next time they're in WalMart. Fox doesn't care about the 50th wedding anniversary of Joe and Jane Smith or the annual Girl Scout cookie sale, because that's just not scary enough to report.
I respect your opinions as gun-toting American citizens because I can understand why you feel the need to arm yourselves. But I don't feel that need. I am aware of the risks and choose not to walk alone down the street at night. I don't walk anyway and pack a Glock 9 in my purse so that I can shoot people in case they make threatening gestures at me, because frankly, I'm not prepared to point a gun in someone's face, pull the trigger and watch their brains fly out the back of their head. Maybe that will be the death of me, but then again, maybe it won't.
In debate, the point is not to bully someone into your point of view, but simply present your own viewpoint and your reasons for supporting it. The winning side is not the one who convinces the other side of the virtues of its own opinion, but rather the one who presents the best argument. In order to have a debate, you must have a contrary position TO debate; that is what I am providing you with. If you choose to censor what I have to say, then you're going to have rather dull discourse.
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Guest
The article doesn't say if the individual had any training or not……whats your point?Take a look at this and tell me that guns in the hands of the untrained are a super idea! http://www.cbc.ca/cp/world/031111/w111152.html
You think that’s good? These laws endanger the life of my children. I get cougars , grizzlies and wolves in my back yard. We all don't live in urban environments but Ottawa doesn't take that into account when the pass their legislation. So I have a choice follow the law or break the law. If I follow the law my child could be dead and dragged off into the bush long before I assemble what I need to stop the predator. Guess I'll just have to live with being a criminal. I keep a weapon at the ready just in case I need to remove a predator who's decided to hunt the neighbor hood kids.But in Canada, when you're NOT using a gun, it has to have a trigger lock on it, it has to be in a cabinet and locked up, and the ammunition must also be locked up in a separate part of the house. I suppose the idea is so that by the time you get your gun unlocked and together, you'll realize that shooting your husband's lover isn't such a cool idea after all.
No we are discussing escalating to lethal force in to eliminate a threat.You're talking about killing human beings, not shooting haystacks or tin cans.
I might be that stranger walking down the street. That's the whole point of the force continuum, you never know who or what threat you may face.The fact that you can be so glib about shooting another human being makes me more afraid of you than I am of that stranger walking down the street.
Thanks for telling us what the martial arts are supposed to be about, we would be lost without your guidance.Martial arts is supposed to be about body, mind and spirit
Twiggy what do you propose one does when someone forces their way into your house armed with a 2x4, Mahatma Ghandi impersonations might not be very effective. BTW have you ever been beaten unconscious with a 2x4? I have it *****! In my book people coming at me with lumber is justification for lethal force.
Laird
My point was, the guy shot and killed his neighbour for having the gall to step onto his property after said guy shoots said neighbour's dog. This is the kind of thing that can be resolved by calling Animal Control and/or local law enforcement and reporting the neighbour, not shooting him with a shotgun. A man died because he had a dog that barked a lot. Would the shooter be a wimp if he went inside, locked his doors and called police while the neighbour brandishing the two-by-four was on the way over?
These laws also protect your children from accidently picking up the loaded gun and shooting themselves or one of their friends. And while you may argue that your children are much too smart to ever play with a loaded gun, their friends may not be. All it takes is just a bit of carelessness and someone could be seriously injured or killed. I know this because my friend's older brother was killed when he and some friends got messing around with a rifle that was left loaded and unattended. I've seen the kind of pain his family lives with - if only someone had put it away, if only it had been locked up, if only it hadn't been loaded... but that doesn't bring Mike back.
You can sanitize it if you want, but "escalating to the use of lethal force to eliminate a threat" is killing someone. Lethal force is deadly force, which is force that kills someone. That's like saying the neighbour in the link "floated away to the Elysium fields" instead of "got hit with a shotgun blast".
Since you obviously think I'm some loud mouth junior who just learned how to throw a punch yesterday and I'm all hopped up on my own sense of self-importance, I'd just like to point out to you that you have no idea what my rank is because I'm not going to stoop to saying things like, "I'm a black belt, my opinion is more valid because you're only a junior belt." I respect everyone's opinion, regardless of the belt they're wearing. And I've met plenty of power-tripping senior students wearing black belts they didn't deserve - so a belt colour won't automatically earn my respect. I respect people, not their clothes. You don't know my story - so before you make assumptions about who I am and what I have and have not seen and done, you should think about that.
If someone broke into my house with a two by four, I'd lock myself in my room and call the police. Let them shoot him if they want to, it's out of my hands after I make that call. And no, I've never been beaten by a two by four, but I've been jumped and I know what that feels like.
If you're going to patronize me and treat me like I'm some froofroo bubblehead who's more concerned about whether her makeup matches her shoes than she is about having an intelligent conversation, then this is the last time I'm posting.
There really isn't any room for dissent at all here, is there? God Bless America! Double plus bless guns and the Make my Day legislation!
These laws also protect your children from accidently picking up the loaded gun and shooting themselves or one of their friends. And while you may argue that your children are much too smart to ever play with a loaded gun, their friends may not be. All it takes is just a bit of carelessness and someone could be seriously injured or killed. I know this because my friend's older brother was killed when he and some friends got messing around with a rifle that was left loaded and unattended. I've seen the kind of pain his family lives with - if only someone had put it away, if only it had been locked up, if only it hadn't been loaded... but that doesn't bring Mike back.
You can sanitize it if you want, but "escalating to the use of lethal force to eliminate a threat" is killing someone. Lethal force is deadly force, which is force that kills someone. That's like saying the neighbour in the link "floated away to the Elysium fields" instead of "got hit with a shotgun blast".
Since you obviously think I'm some loud mouth junior who just learned how to throw a punch yesterday and I'm all hopped up on my own sense of self-importance, I'd just like to point out to you that you have no idea what my rank is because I'm not going to stoop to saying things like, "I'm a black belt, my opinion is more valid because you're only a junior belt." I respect everyone's opinion, regardless of the belt they're wearing. And I've met plenty of power-tripping senior students wearing black belts they didn't deserve - so a belt colour won't automatically earn my respect. I respect people, not their clothes. You don't know my story - so before you make assumptions about who I am and what I have and have not seen and done, you should think about that.
If someone broke into my house with a two by four, I'd lock myself in my room and call the police. Let them shoot him if they want to, it's out of my hands after I make that call. And no, I've never been beaten by a two by four, but I've been jumped and I know what that feels like.
If you're going to patronize me and treat me like I'm some froofroo bubblehead who's more concerned about whether her makeup matches her shoes than she is about having an intelligent conversation, then this is the last time I'm posting.
There really isn't any room for dissent at all here, is there? God Bless America! Double plus bless guns and the Make my Day legislation!
Oh, one more thing - nice way to take my post out of context - "Martial arts is supposed to be about body, mind and spirit", which you so politely replied to, finished with "do we teach the skills to kill without the compassion to temper them?"
Obviously a rhetorical question, since you have so much disdain for St. Francis, the Buddha, and Ghandi. Their policy of non-violence clearly had no impact on anyone - except maybe that Ghandi guy, he did free an entire country from imperialist rule by refusing to get up when someone beat him. But in any case, maybe someone should've given them a few 30.06 Winchesters and they might have gotten their point across a little better.
Obviously a rhetorical question, since you have so much disdain for St. Francis, the Buddha, and Ghandi. Their policy of non-violence clearly had no impact on anyone - except maybe that Ghandi guy, he did free an entire country from imperialist rule by refusing to get up when someone beat him. But in any case, maybe someone should've given them a few 30.06 Winchesters and they might have gotten their point across a little better.
