Another small step for the Second Amendment

[Kevin Mackie]

There's no place like (a safe) home.

http://www.boston.com/dailynews/327/nat ... din:.shtml

kevin

[lookingglass]

"Sheriff Gerald Gilkey said the ordinance makes him concerned for the safety of his officers."

This is a crock of horse #####...
What is this simple voted in sheriff afraid of? What are his officers prone to sneak around homes and act sneaky? Why would he be afraid about this. Does he believe the good Kansas people of this small town are going to revolt and begin shooting Deputys just because they are just now given the right to own firearms.
I am sure the Sheriff knows people in that area that hunt and he probably has hunting buddies.
Why is it someone always has to step up with that some old trash talk and ask the stupid questions and make dumb remarks such as that.
What does he believe that only his officers should have firearms?
I bet you If I was, notice that if I was, a person bent on killing the sheriff I could do it as he sat and drank coffee and ate his donut in the local diner...
We are all easy enough targets to those that really want to get us.
Way off subject but I think the man is an idiot for the one comment that he made.

[Panther]

While there are many good, freedom-loving, intelligent people that wear uniforms and carry badges, it just goes to show that none of those qualities are prerequisites to get the job. Perhaps they should be prerequisites, but then we'd have to argue over who gets to set the standards.

[IJ]

Anyone notice that this is simply forbidding gun ownership in reverse? I mean, hell, what's better about forcing people to own guns than denying them the right? I guess there's an out-clause for conscientious objection, but frankly, if people's opinions were going to be respected, then no one who didn't want one would be forced to buy one and then we'd basically have the situation most of us should be in--can buy if desired, can avoid if desired. What if you've got an unreliable kid in the house? What if you just don't want one or don't want the government in your business? This is a forum where we generally rail against the idea of making motorcyclists wear helmets to protect their brains and save $ (public $) and lives--why would we more welcome the forced ownership of guns? Is forced training coming with it? Ought to, I spose. Gosh, I hope this crime spree gets shut down (or was there one at all?) and the government finds better things to do with its time.

Has anyone ever heard of a voluntary firearm ownership drive or the creation of a local, organized, volunteer militia / police force?

Psycho.

[RACastanet]

Hello Ian. Happy Thanksgiving. If you see Tim anymore tell him I said hello.

My take is this law is designed to create the thought in every bad guys mind that this town is a bad place to commit a crime. The reality is not everyone will be armed, but the perception is almost as important. A few years ago I saw the crime rate for Kennesaw GA, a town where this has been in effect for about 20 years, and the crime rate was very low compared to surrounding areas.

On a larger scale, look at WW2. Hitler never considered invading the small country of Switzerland even though the Axis surrounded it. Why? Every able bodied man was in fact armed (still are, except now with fully auto weapons) and the risk to take the country over was very high.

Also, during WW2 the US was concerned that Japan would invade the west coast after they had pretty much wiped out our Pacific fleet. However, after the war documents showed that Japan had no intention or plans to do so because they feared facing our armed populace. True or not, the perception protected us.

In Richmond, the city's murder rate is on the rise again after years of decline. The Chief of Police has suggested creating an armed civilian force made up of volunteers to help out. In fact, a city officer asked me if I'd like to ride along with her on patrol... and please bring a weapon. My wife did not think much of that idea but the armed militia may be sanctioned in the city.

Likewise, Henrico County, where I reside, is considering a six week training session for willing citizens to become sworm LEOs (unlike Richmond, this group would be paid) and help increase the ranks of the county police force quickly.

Rich

[Van Canna]

Good post Rich.

Not many people are able to see it the way you put it.

I have heard this argument a few times before, always makes me chuckle.

[Panther]

I concur... Good post Rich.

I've seen the arguments too. The fact is that I think there are some people who shouldn't own firearms (who aren't otherwise prohibited because of being a felon, etc). Those mainly consist of folks who say things like, "I'm against guns because I know that if I'd had one the other day {in traffic, at the checkout, in the mall, fill-in-the-event-here} I'd have lost it and shot someone!" I generally think that those people who don't have enough maturity or self-control that they actually believe that they could "just snap" if they had a firearm are quite correct that they shouldn't have one! However, that isn't any reason to punish those of us who do have the proper adult self-control and maturity to know what actions are appropriate when carrying a firearm. In fact, the responsible gun-owners who I know universally agree that when they've been carrying and a situation has arisen, they've been far more likely to de-escalate because they are carrying and know the enormous responsibility that requires. Many non-gun-owners don't understand that and seem to think that because they don't have a firearm, they have license to be rude, crude and abusive towards others {in traffic, at the checkout, in the mall, fill-in-the-event-here} and that having a firearm automagically will turn them into Billy the Kid. Perhaps it would. Only they can honestly answer to that. If they are telling the truth that they are afraid they'd "lose it", then I whole heartedly concur that they should not have access to firearms. And there was an out in Kennesaw Ga, just as there would be anywhere. The most telling thing about the Kennesaw GA law was that at the same time another small town (forget which one off the top of my head) had passed an ordinance completely banning guns. 20 years later, where Kennesaw GA had a much lower crime rate than surrounding areas, that other town's crime rate had increase more than the surrounding areas. Hmmmmmmm.... Just like anyone else, I guess criminals don't like "hazardous" work environments!

[Van Canna]

Those mainly consist of folks who say things like, "I'm against guns because I know that if I'd had one the other day {in traffic, at the checkout, in the mall, fill-in-the-event-here} I'd have lost it and shot someone!

True. And I have another take on these idiots. I think they are just saying this out of their miserable fears, and opposition of firearms. I don’t think they’d have the balls to carry through their implied actions.

I have been in company of such jerks when some sh** went down, and they were the first ones to disappear under the tables.

[Panther]

True. And I have another take on these idiots. ... I don’t think they’d have the balls to carry through their implied actions.

I have been in company of such jerks when some sh** went down, and they were the first ones to disappear under the tables.

Hmmmm... Now that you mention it, my experiences have been the same, except that "under the tables" isn't even part of it, they just disappeared like ghosts in a fog only to reappear later and talk about how bad the sh** went down! Riiiiiight, and your injuries are? Interesting.

Take care...

[Van Canna]

Ha..Ha..right on my friend.

They end up on the “Ghost Ship” waiting for them…..

***



Here is Francesca, singing “Ogni notte” that Italian, haunting, love song. Have you seen the movie yet?

[Panther]

Haven't seen the movie yet. I've seen the Lord of the Rings on video, and the Matrix, but that's all I've taken time away for. Probably a good thing... Something about those dark haired beauties that makes my heart race! And with the one that I married, I'm not sure I could take much more sultriness without a sedative, glass of scotch, good cigar and time in the hot tub!!! Those eyes! That look! What is it about the European-Italian-French beauties that makes your knees to shake? Ya know... It's just another form of the "chemical cocktail" that we have to learn to deal with! Perhaps a thread on that! Another great reason to train for the chemical cocktail!!! (On a side note: Having a Degree in Musical Composition, prior to going back and becoming an engineer, I love a good well sung opera. Just wish I could understand the words, but alas, I listen for the music and emotion and am content with knowing the rough translation and story line.)

[lookingglass]

I like the post you put down, RACastanet. The thing that makes me chuckle is some people believe that they are safe from attack and the military can take care of all that. Saying that is what they get paid for.

All the anti gun conversation is a ploy to get us to that area that our enemies are able to stop right down our home street and have not any fear because with the arms they carry we are left simply infierior.

I personally today do not have a firearm, no the divorce was tough and I thought to sell them all for safty sake. Like not drinking and driving, a conscious effort I applaud myself for.

I am happy to here about the situation with the law and how the people are givin a chance to assist in the crime reduction action. Seems the police report in my area has been that the people are the problem and if we disarm them then the police can act out of duty instead of not acting out of fear.

As far as movies goes "Gothica" Was a great and chiling movie. There were young and old that went to see the movie and it was great. The action was never boring. Hally was sexy. The mystery was intruiging and I kept guessing, but never the right answer.

All around great film for buddies and couples to see, it is saturday fellows...

[Van Canna]

Hi Panther

Haven't seen the movie yet.

It’s on cable/Satellite…scheduled again this week. Quite a story, and the soundtrack and visual effects are stunning.

Those eyes ! That look ! What is it about the European-Italian-French beauties that makes your knees to shake?

The invention of the devil, you know.

If you watch Francesca, move, when she sings the melodic song, you won’t be the same guy for a few days.

[Panther]

Hi Panther

It’s on cable/Satellite…scheduled again this week. Quite a story, and the soundtrack and visual effects are stunning.

I'll have to get the DVD, I don't have cable or satellite right now.

The invention of the devil, you know.

It's rare that we disagree, but I think this is purely Heaven-sent!

If you watch Francesca, move, when she sings the melodic song, you won’t be the same guy for a few days.

Good Gawd Man!!! Watch her move!?!?!

I'm not the same man just from the pictures you posted!!!!

Hmmmm... I gotta go have an, ummmmm, aaaaaa, talk (yeah, that's it) with the missus...

[IJ]

Several good posts have missed the point....

The situation recent posts have been about is whether an armed populace can be a deterrent to criminals and axis powers--and that's all well and good. We've also heard that a lot of people who pride themselves on not carrying guns are cowards and rude and jerks and and and yaaaaaaaaawwwwwwnnnnnn. Heard that tired tale again. But none of that really doesn't justify the law in the least because:

1) People have not shown that there is a less intrusive way to reach the same goal and

2) The ends do not justify the means (except in some extreme cases, not satisfied here).

Let's put it another way: let us ASSUME that there was good data that a law banning guns for a town would decrease crime rates 25% across the board. Not bad, huh? I would be happy to bet every penny I own that such an inconvenient fact wouldn't dissaude gun enthusiasts from opposing such a law on several grounds:

1) They have the right to own guns as enshrined in the Constitution. Even if they didn't, people should have the right to make their own decisions and live with the consequences, which is part of what makes the whole country special and worth fighting for.

2) Responsible gun owning individuals would suffer because while there might be a net benefit to the town, they were at no risk from having a gun, and losing it would put them at greater risk of a home invasion--why should responsible people suffer to benefit those locals who COULDN'T safely manage a gun in the home?

Hey, those are good reasons. I'd be with gun ownership rights advocates on that one. Sadly, while people seem to be supporting the obligatory gun ownership law because they feel it would benefit the town, it isn't intellectually consistent to NOT support a hypothetical gun ban that WOULD benefit the town. Come on, which gun enthusiasts here would trudge down to their police station and drop their piece in the government bin if they heard that data and lived under that law? What we're really dealing with is a pre-formed decision that people support gun ownership--then depending on the circumstances the logic for that position is flexible. The cart is before the horse.

What's been written above about guns decreasing crime as either an explicit or tacit expression of support for the obligatory ownership law is at odds with the individual rights rhetoric that has rightfully been trumpeted on this page many a time. The point ought to be--as it has been before--that the freedom to choose is the important thing and if one truly has the freedom to make decisions, they have the freedom to make bad ones. We should be allowed to make our OWN assessments of risks and benefits to owning a gun and make up our OWN minds rather than having the government decide one way or another. If we don't support that right for others even when we disagree with their choices (whether its their choices in guns, diet, relationships, drug use, etc) then while we may feel like advocates of freedom when we discuss a topic where WE feel oppressed, we become the tyrants advocating what OTHERS feel are restrictions when we discuss other topics.

What this government ought to have done if they felt strongly about this is:

--advertise gun ownership of locals with signs that might deter criminals
--encourage gun ownership in a voluntary basis by supporting civilian gun training, perhaps offering tax breaks on guns, by making licenses cheaper and easier to obtain, and educating people so that they CHOOSE to own guns on their own.
--make it clear under what circumstances a criminal might legally face firearm defense of a home--then take steps to make sure peopel don't blow away exchange students knocking on the wrong door and local teens playing a door bell prank and their spouses arriving home late.

Let me steal some thunder by pointing out that I support measures to reduce smoking, improve diets, encourage seatbelt and helmet use, among others. There are ways to make this encouragement voluntary however--that includes tax breaks on helmets, tax penalties on people who abuse their health to pay for their health care costs, DECENT nutritional info on foods, and sin taxes on unhealthy behaviors that leave them legal but shift people to healthier living. I know its hard to part with cherished positions to have a consistent logic and I'm not perfect myself. I'm sure I supported helmet laws on here at least once and am still conflicted about the smoking ban, even though smoking is noxious and dangerous to many.

As far as non-gun-owners being jerks at the checkout lane, I would like to see stats that show that gun owners are actually more polite in public than abstainers. I know very few gun owners just because of the crowd I run with (health care professionals) and know by extension there are tons of polite abstainers out there. Further, I don't know anyone well who actually played a role in violence going down. I had one karate student 5 years ago who got in a fight drunk who was advised not to bring his issues to our dojo. Otherwise everyone I know has been peaceful and, if involved in violence, has been there because they were assaulted (this is me, several times, because of who I was or what I said) and generally split when they had the chance or did their best if they didn't get the chance. In short, while ***I have no doubt that many gun owners have a heightened sense of responsibility for good behavior and expect that many posters here are among that bunch***, I doubt gun ownership is at all useful in determing who's likely to be polite out in the world.