Uechi-Ryu.com

Discussion Area
It is currently Tue Sep 16, 2014 2:57 am

All times are UTC




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 130 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 ... 9  Next
Author Message
 Post subject: Townhall Debate..
PostPosted: Sat Oct 09, 2004 3:37 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Tue Jan 20, 2004 7:03 am
Posts: 878
I have no problem saying that I'm a Bush - Cheney supporter from the start and so I won't try to decieve anyone.I just wanted to post here and display my opinion of tonight's debate October, 8.I was really impressed with Mr.Bush tonight and I really believe We saw the same song and dance and wishy washy thinking from Mr. Kerry.I think Especially when it came to the topic of abortion Mr. Kerry was in his try to say yes and no to please everyone mode as always.He said something to the effect that he respected the rights of life but couldn't protect them because of his role in government.He voted no to ban partial birth abortion but was generally against it.This was just one of many issues I feel he was wishy washy on.

Mr . Kerry even has a demeanor that worries me because he sits and shows no sign of emotion or objection even while his opposition is speaking in a way to to deconstruct his silly notions and plans.Often times he smiles while he is being torn apart with truth and for a man who would be in a serious position if he would become president this is kind of troubling and you wonder to yourself does this man has any passion for he calls his values and beliefs and if he truly did then why doesn't he quit smiling like a moron and pandering for the camera with his false obnoxious smiles and get up and really take a position on something.He has to be bothered and I don't believe it's Kerry displaying cool collected leadership skills by doing this.I think it's the man doesn't know what he cares about enough to become passionate about it as always.

Win for W. By a landslide here in my opinion and same Old Prop up Kerry and say what you think people will like and hope it works in another words throw crap against the wall and see what sticks and take it from there. I prefer a plan Like Mr Bush has.

Jeff


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Oct 09, 2004 1:34 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed Jul 09, 2003 12:20 pm
Posts: 2117
Location: Virginia
Quote:
I have no problem saying that I'm a Bush - Cheney supporter from the start and so I won't try to decieve anyone.


OK so you're biased.

Quote:
.I think Especially when it came to the topic of abortion Mr. Kerry was in his try to say yes and no to please everyone mode as always.He said something to the effect that he respected the rights of life but couldn't protect them because of his role in government.He voted no to ban partial birth abortion but was generally against it.


Did you not hear Mr Kerry say why he voted against the ban? He said because the ban didn't give lee way for things like when the Mom's life was at risk. You probably don't remember because GW said "you can run but can't hide" and then accused Kerry of being wishy washy.. I'm sure that stuck in many a Bush supporters mind. (my blood boiled when Bush said that BTW :) )
What about Bush's flip flop on stem cell research?

Quote:
Mr . Kerry even has a demeanor that worries me because he sits and shows no sign of emotion or objection even while his opposition is speaking in a way to to deconstruct his silly notions and plans.Often times he smiles while he is being torn apart with truth and for a man who would be in a serious position if he would become president this is kind of troubling and you wonder to yourself does this man has any passion for he calls his values and beliefs and if he truly did then why doesn't he quit smiling like a moron and pandering for the camera with his false obnoxious smiles and get up and really take a position on something.


Interesting point of view. We as karate practitioners should know the value of self control. If a man can't control himself in the little things like a national debate what will he do during a crisis? Hide in a bunker or fly in airforce one for a few days while the VP runs the nation? Stare blankly into space for seven minutes while we are under attack? Rush into a war without a plan for peace?

Kerry showed self control. THere was one point in the debate where Bush completely ignored the moderator and spit out a diatribe because he was so angered. This isn't Jerry Springer Folks!

_________________
Hydrogen Peroxide removes blood stains!


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Oct 09, 2004 2:44 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Mar 11, 1999 6:01 am
Posts: 3754
Location: Richmond, VA
"he sits and shows no sign of emotion"

Could it be a result of the Botox?

Rich

_________________
Member of the world's premier gun club, the USMC!


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Oct 09, 2004 3:41 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Mar 11, 1999 6:01 am
Posts: 17094
Location: Richmond, VA --- Louisville, KY
Quote:
Could it be a result of the Botox?

Yes.
Quote:
Interesting point of view. We as karate practitioners should know the value of self control.

I have shown great restraint in my life when it comes to fighting. My actions speak for themselves.

On the other hand, I bawl like a baby at funerals. When my best friend's mother died, I clutched onto my newborn #2 son all the way through a beautiful ceremony and cried nonstop. At the end of it all, my face looked like some of the pictures in another thread on the OC event.

The amygdala will do what the amygdala will do. It is up to our higher brain functions to intercept and modify these signals - if they are capable of doing so. Uncontrolled emotion is one thing, showing the amygdala has conquered rational thought. Controlled emotional responses are virtue, and not vice.

It takes a better man shamelessly to show emotion where it is appropriate. When Bush got on the air that day and announced that freedom had been attacked, his voice cracked. Believe it or not, this trait that Bush has is one of his saving graces in the eyes of the public.
Quote:
OK so you're biased.

As for Bush's behavior on September 11, 2004, your comments, Ben, come straight from Moore's movie. Talk about biased...

So it's bad for Bush to be passionate during a debate, but it's out of control for him to...
Quote:
Stare blankly into space for seven minutes while we are under attack?

And by the way, he wasn't staring blankly into space. He was reading to children. The events obviously registered in his eyes (I saw it...) but they did not deter him from doing what was important AT THAT POINT IN TIME. Remove Moore's music and hateful language from the F-911 movie playing in your head, Ben. Get back to unedited Bush. The man was reading to school children. He was out IN THE FIELD showing his support for literacy and public education. You know, the mean old right winger who does terrible things to our educational system? Meanwhile, his staff was on the ball. They were informing him of the progress of events as they were happening. That's delegation of authority. That's multitasking. That's leadership.

Moore has the luxury of 20/20 hindsight. I'm sure when the first plane hit, he immediately called Delta and arranged a flight to NYC where he could pour coffee for rescue workers giving their lives for fellow New Yorkers, right? Riiiighhttt.... I saw him on films of NYC. Didn't you? Riiiggghhhtt.

I was there, Ben. I remember 9/11. It was the day I was diagnosed with walking pneumonia. Most of us remember that day. I remember the fellow in the office next to me (Jeff Walter) coming in and saying a plane had crashed into the WTC. He was in the military reserve, and a strong, stoic kind of guy. We sat and pondered what could have caused such a tragedy. We had no f***ing idea. And neither did you at the time, unless you didn't get your news until long after everyone had figured it out.
Quote:
If a man can't control himself in the little things like a national debate what will he do during a crisis? Hide in a bunker or fly in airforce one for a few days while the VP runs the nation?

It is the job of the Secret Service to protect both the president and the Vice President. That is a matter of NATIONAL SECURITY. These were well-executed plans. As soon as they knew that this was a terrorist event - and it took THEM a bit of time as they monitored events in real time - then they took over. The president was whisked away to an undisclosed location. Cheney reports that the Secret Service came into his office, informed him that they were going to take him to a safe location, and grabbed him from each side. He says his feet never touched the floor from that point until they had him several floors below ground level.

And by the way, the president can and does lead the country from his "undisclosed location." Air Force One is capable of communicationg with the world, and even launching a nuclear attack if necessary. We as a nation were completely safe. In case you didn't notice, orders were given to bring all planes down to the ground IMMEDIATELY. Thanks to our good friends in Canada who accepted these redirected flights, more tragedy potentially could have been averted. It was the most impressive redirection of thousands of civilian flights in history, and it went off without a hitch.

Bring Mr. Moore on, Ben. I'll take him on in a national debate, and allow the media to check facts afterwards. Any where, any time, any place. I'll kick his a$$ - figuratively speaking - with controlled but deliberate passion.

- Bill


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Oct 09, 2004 3:59 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Mar 11, 1999 6:01 am
Posts: 17094
Location: Richmond, VA --- Louisville, KY
Comments from all sides welcome. Just keep it civil.

- Bill


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Oct 09, 2004 4:19 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed Jul 09, 2003 12:20 pm
Posts: 2117
Location: Virginia
Bill,

I was painting my front porch 9/11. Before that it was 0900 a plane had just hit the WTC.. OK I'll give that one to Bush. I too thought it was a private plane that hit the WTC. I had been to the top of the WTC before and saw just how close planes could fly to it. It seemed reasonable that could happen. At 0930 I was at the dentist office at 0930 they had a tv on with continued footage of a second crash. I still get chills. I remember vividly just knowing that it was some Islamo@#$%$#@ group who did it.

Two days after the attack Bush shone. He himself says he was empowered by God during that time. I agree. Bush posessed geat abilities during that moment in time. Those abilities seem to have vanished unfortunately :(

As far as Micheal Moore being my source for Cheney running the show ... nope. Got it from the history channels's 9/11 story. Is Micheal Moore an inspiration to me? No Bill, sorry. I don't need MM to point out GW's improper handleing of our financial future is wrong. He's the first presidenet EVER to cut taxes during a WAR. We are spending faster than we can bring it in.

I find it entertaining that people think that if you don't like GW you've naively bought into Micheal Moore's propaganda. To be honest MM is an embarassment to me. A half truth is a full lie.

_________________
Hydrogen Peroxide removes blood stains!


Last edited by benzocaine on Sat Oct 09, 2004 4:53 pm, edited 2 times in total.

Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Oct 09, 2004 4:23 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed Nov 27, 2002 1:16 am
Posts: 2758
Location: Boston
I can't really imagine what I would have said or done (this doesn't matter) as a President getting 9/11 news, or what I would have asked a President to do before a 9/11 (this does matter) when informed of an enormous terrorist attack, because it's over and we've reflected. But I don't think delegation means continuing to read to kindergartners during the biggest tragedy in decades. Maybe ideal would have been to calmly excuse himself and go get a full briefing and brainstorm responses ASAP? It's hindsight, so I don't think this is a big deal.

Back to the debates... and abortion rights. MOST americans support abortion rights but have misgivings about actual abortion. This isn't wishywashy. It's how I feel and it also reflects how I and many others feel about smoking, motorcycles, junk food diets, and it happens to be how adults who respect the Constitution could approach gay rights despite personal opinions about homosexuality (ahem, Mr. President). Just because you don't like something doesn't mean you ban it. People recognize OTHERS may not consider abortion murder, or they recognize that serious health or personal reasons factor in. Maybe they remember desperate women getting illegal abortions and dying or being maimed by the consequences? Maybe they remember religious conservatives efforts to ban abortion in all its forms, with some even opposing abortion for the health or life of mom, even opposing birth control (the Pope's position; wants contaception banned and equates OCPs with murder). 3rd party candidates actually proposed zero abortion policies during their debate.

My purely medical perspective is that in states where abortion rights have been curtailed, and more rights have been given to fetuses, women have had their medical decision making denied--they've undergone forcible surgery or confinement against their will because of pregnancy. The next logical step is fetal protection with enforced diet, surveillance for alcohol use and smoking, etc, etc. Everyone is supposed to be able to choose treatment but if fetuses are felt to be full citizens, women WILL have their rights curtailed because they got pregnant. A bioethics text on the matter concluded, (here i paraphrase from memory) "it is better that some private wrongs occur than that state sponsored control of women becomes part of the legal landscape." So while abortion makes me queasy and I'm not going to put myself in a position where I would be asked to do one, I remain prochoice. Like Kerry, I would never support a moronic law that requires doctors to watch a woman die instead of doing a partial birth abortion when one was medically necessary. Talk about crazy politics!!

And unlike Bush & Co, my solution to the abortion problem isn't chopping rights but reducing abortion by reducing unwanted pregnancy. Despite the very high rates of sexual activity in our high schools, for example, or the proven fact that abstinence education delays sex for some people but leads to more unprotected sex when it occurs, he continues to support a counterintuitive policy of failing to arm young people with the skills to prevent pregnancy and STDs.

_________________
--Ian


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Oct 09, 2004 8:49 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Mar 11, 1999 6:01 am
Posts: 3754
Location: Richmond, VA
As I recall, Kerry stated that on 9/11 he remained motionless in his office for 30 minutes or so. Should he be in the Oval Office? Can anyone help me with the deatails on that?

Bill said: "Cheney reports that the Secret Service came into his office, informed him that they were going to take him to a safe location, and grabbed him from each side. He says his feet never touched the floor from that point until they had him several floors below ground level."

A good friend, name preferred unmentioned in that role, was one of Cheney's military advisers (they carry the attache case with the launch codes of the day) at the time, and recounted that story to me. I believe he said Cheney protested but had no input or choice in the matter. Cheney was out of there with this advisor carrying the 'football' close on their heels had Cheney needed to call in a nuclear attack (had the President been somehow taken out).

Rich

_________________
Member of the world's premier gun club, the USMC!


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Oct 09, 2004 9:20 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed Jul 09, 2003 12:20 pm
Posts: 2117
Location: Virginia
Quote:
As I recall, Kerry stated that on 9/11 he remained motionless in his office for 30 minutes or so. Should he be in the Oval Office? Can anyone help me with the details on that?


Well since he is a legislator and not the Comander in Cheif I'd suppose it didn't matter what he did during that moment. It's not as though the senate do anything without the president,

Yes he should be in the Oval Office. :)

I sincerely hope you guys in Richmond are well. I obviously don't see a lot of political insights as you, but I'm sure there are a lot we do agree on. I just wanted to let you know I respect your opinions and you all as well... I just disagree with some. If I've come across a disrespectful, let this be my chance to clarify that it's not intentional, and I am mainly attacking the statement and not the individual.

_________________
Hydrogen Peroxide removes blood stains!


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Oct 09, 2004 9:43 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Mar 11, 1999 6:01 am
Posts: 17094
Location: Richmond, VA --- Louisville, KY
Quote:
As far as Micheal Moore being my source for Cheney running the show ... nope. Got it from the history channels's 9/11 story.

I want documentation. I have never heard this, Ben. Furthermore, it doesn't makes sense.

Why?

My home office is in Eden Prairie, MN. Another company I help run is in Phoenix, AZ. And where do I work? Wherever I am. Mostly it's in an office in Richmond, VA, but sometimes it's from a hotel in Baltimore, MD. I have a cell phone. I have a computer with internet link to anywhere in the world. One of my direct reports is in New Haven. The other is in San Diego. This is the way work is done today in our modern, telecomuting world.

Air Force one is the oval office, Ben. It's the epitome of telecomuting.

Furthermore, I reiterate what I said before. The plans were in place for the response in such a national emergency long before 9/11 happened. At that point in time, the Secret Service tell the president what to do. It's like a game of chess, Ben. When you checkmate the king, it's over. You must protect command and control.

Remember - the terrorists took out the heart of our financial system. They attacked the heart of our military. And one of the planes was supposed to attack the heart of our government (either Congress or the White House).

Nobody knew the extent of the attack until days after it was over. Right? Did you? When did you have it ALL figured out?

In my view, the response was brilliant.

And Bush's decisions after that remain a matter of debate. Especially since I read about the bribery of France, Russia, China, and members of the U.N. with Saddam's oil credits, I am so bloody glad we went in there. We removed a bad situation waiting to happen (with the U.N. poised to facilitate it), and we found the documentation which proves the bribery was going on.

Let Kerry whine about "no WMDs" all he wants. Mr. Revisionist voted for this war, after all. This new position du jour is just more classic Kerry.

Ian

I am for a woman's right to choose.

Bush just told you he wasn't going to have a litmus test for members of the Supreme Court. Good... That's all I want. He wants strict interpretation of the Constitution. What's wrong with that?

And what's wrong with the government not paying for abortion?

And do you have a proven plan to prevent pregnancies? Fine...do they also prevent STDs? Abstenance, after all, is the only proven method.

I've been in the business of disease management for a long time now. As a physician, you should know what it's like getting people to change self destructive behavior. Replace one simple solution with another, and idiots will still eventually self destruct. I just don't see a whole lot more than "expert opinion" going on here, and that doesn't exactly move me.

We need smart people like you knocking some sense into peoples' heads. My wife just this morning was telling me about a handful of patients who refuse to get on birth control, in spite of repeated visits to her for all kinds of nasty vaginal infections and infestations. And they will call her from some foreign place for a prescription for "the morning after pill." Again, and again, and again.

She now has a new policy for these idiots who don't listen to her. "Get a new doctor. No to the prescription."

- Bill


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Oct 09, 2004 10:08 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Mar 11, 1999 6:01 am
Posts: 17094
Location: Richmond, VA --- Louisville, KY
Remember that these early polls tend to be a little less representative of the final reaction than the ones taken over about a 3 day period. But this is interesting - once again.

CNN/USA TODAY/Gallup debate reaction poll

- Bill


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Oct 09, 2004 10:23 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Mar 11, 1999 6:01 am
Posts: 17094
Location: Richmond, VA --- Louisville, KY
Quote:
it happens to be how adults who respect the Constitution could approach gay rights despite personal opinions about homosexuality (ahem, Mr. President). Just because you don't like something doesn't mean you ban it.

Ian, you are much too smart a guy to make a statement like that. I'll let you read it. Your own words hang you.

Can you live with Vice President Cheney's view?

I support your right to do whatever you damned well please behind closed doors. And I hope society finds a rational solution to your legal issues. There is a way, after all, w/o pi$$ing the church off. Legal unions which guarantee the rights you want do not have to be matrimony, do they?

Remember Mr. Kerry's position (the most recent one) isn't going to do you much good. Voting for him to improve your legal status as a gay male may be a matter of cutting off your nose to spite your face.

- Bill


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Oct 09, 2004 10:51 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed Jul 09, 2003 12:20 pm
Posts: 2117
Location: Virginia
Quote:
I want documentation. I have never heard this, Ben. Furthermore, it doesn't makes sense.


Quote:
Air Force one is the oval office, Ben. It's the epitome of telecomuting.


OK. I'll try and find a reference to it on the 'net Bill. I could be wrong. It could have been Biography and not the History channel. Either way, we are told Bush and Cheney had no communication during the first 2 hours of 9/11. Does that make sense?

_________________
Hydrogen Peroxide removes blood stains!


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Oct 09, 2004 11:16 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed Jul 09, 2003 12:20 pm
Posts: 2117
Location: Virginia
This about as close to doccumentaion I can get Bill. It doesn't quite put it into the same words as the doccumentary did but it said...

"Mr. Bush says the first hours were frustrating. He watched the horrifying pictures, but the TV signal was breaking up. His calls to Cheney were cutting out. And he says he pounded his desk shouting, “This is inexcusable. Get me the vice president"

Yeah, hard to beleive that the most sophisticated comand center on earth wasn't working well that day. At least this proves I didn't just pull something out of thin air. I'll keep looking for the specific doccumentary.

_________________
Hydrogen Peroxide removes blood stains!


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Oct 09, 2004 11:25 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Mar 11, 1999 6:01 am
Posts: 17094
Location: Richmond, VA --- Louisville, KY
Quote:
Either way, we are told Bush and Cheney had no communication during the first 2 hours of 9/11. Does that make sense?

It makes sense to me. It doesn't mean this is necessarily bad - particularly since al Qaeda was trying to take the governement out. Worst case scenario - and they came close - would be to take out both the White House and Congress with those 2 D.C. planes. On the first pass, the plane that eventually hit the Pentagon aimed for the White House. He couldn't get the right angle, so he came back and got a secondary target - the Pentagon. The remaining plane was supposed to get the Capitol. What would it have been like if they had gotten the President, the VP, and all of Congress all at once? Who's in charge?

I am comfortable with the world not knowing where our two chiefs were, and that they don't know whether or not they were talking to each other. POTUS was still POTUS, and had everything he needed to launch the most powerful military in the world. But first we needed to figure out what the f*** was going on. Time to assess was a very, very good thing. Disappearing was a very, very good thing.

One more comment... I remembered you wrote this when I was watching football.
Quote:
I don't need MM to point out GW's improper handleing of our financial future is wrong. He's the first presidenet EVER to cut taxes during a WAR. We are spending faster than we can bring it in.

First... The stock market was imploding in the last year of the Clinton administration. I know... I watched my 401K turn into a 201K. First it was the internet stocks. Then it was high tech. Soon everything crashed.

And guess what? The stock market predicts what's going to happen to the economy SIX MONTHS in advance. This was Clinton's recession, Ben.

Tax cuts are used to stimulate a flagging economy, as do lowered interest rates. An independent Alan Greenspan lowered the prime rate to the lowest level in 4 decades (at least). What does that tell you about how bad the economy was, and how much stimulation it took to get it going again, Ben? And how much tax revenue is there going to be when companies aren't making money?

And then add in the fact that 9/11 started way back in the Clinton administration, with the first attack on the WTC. Remember? This time they succeeded, and the plans started well back in the Clinton administration. That takeout of the WTC screwed up our financial institutions and our transportation system. Security now costs us $$$. I am getting tired of taking my bloody shoes off. :evil:

And then there was the War in Afghanistan and again in Iraq when the recession just started. Bush needed to think long term here. We needed to strike back at a disperse enemy, and do it in a way that put the fear of Allah in anyone who thought they could get away with this.

You want to raise taxes in the beginning of a recession? You want to strangle a recessionary economy when it must support 2 war fronts? JFK never did this. He started Vietnam AND lowered capital gains taxes. And the economy went bloody nuts. I know - my dad started his third career as a stock broker. He made a ton of money on this.

But wait, there's more.

- Bill


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 130 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 ... 9  Next

All times are UTC


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group