Illegals Legal?!

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benzocaine
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Illegals Legal?!

Post by benzocaine »

Secretary of State Colin Powell says prospects are improving for congressional action to grant legal status to millions of undocumented aliens in the United States.






Powell in Mexico for talks with President Fox
Immigration high on agenda

Tuesday, November 9, 2004 Posted: 10:47 AM EST (1547 GMT)

MEXICO CITY (AP) -- After almost four years of minimal progress, Secretary of State Colin Powell says prospects are improving for congressional action to grant legal status to millions of undocumented aliens in the United States.

The immigration issue was high on Powell's agenda Tuesday as he headed into talks with President Vicente Fox and other senior Mexican officials.

Powell flew to Mexico with five fellow members of President Bush's Cabinet.

Last January, in an apparent bid for the votes of Hispanics and segments of the U.S. business community, Bush unveiled an ambitious immigration reform proposal whose key feature would provide temporary legal status to many of the more than 8 million migrants who live in the United States without government approval. Migrants would have to provide proof of employment to qualify.

In the 10 months since Bush spelled out the proposal, however, it has failed to make any headway.

Powell said now that the election is over and since there has been substantial progress making the U.S.-Mexico border more secure after the September 11, 2001, terrorist attacks, "there could be a more favorable environment" for immigration reform legislation.

He acknowledged, however, that it is not yet clear how the new Congress taking office in January will deal with the issue.

Fox said the time is ripe for a migration accord. "We have done all the analysis, diagnostics and problem solving possible," Fox said in a radio interview Monday. "There's no reason to lose much time."

Mexican Foreign Secretary Luis Ernesto Derbez praised the Bush administration's support for Mexico's efforts to promote consular identification cards that help Mexicans living abroad open bank accounts or apply for a driver's license in some parts of the United States.

Powell planned to spend several hours Tuesday with his colleagues grappling with a series of cross-border issues.

Mexico supports U.S. immigration reform, objecting to the precarious situation that many Mexicans in the United States without permission face despite their significant contributions to the U.S. economy. Last week, Mexican Interior Secretary Santiago Creel called U.S. migration policy "absurd."

Bush and Fox first broached the subject of immigration reform less than a month after Bush took office in 2001. Fox said last week he believes that 2005 may finally be the year when significant progress may be possible. (Mexico's Fox backs Bush on immigration)

"Neither of our countries will be in elections next year," Fox observed. But Creel warned against "raising expectations beyond what is politically viable and really possible."

On hemispheric relations, Powell acknowledged there has been a shift to the left in several South American countries but said he is "not deeply troubled by it at all. I want to work with whoever the people elect in those countries."

He said it wasn't shocking that people in the region are beginning to make different choices when they go to the polls if they haven't seen the kind of progress they were expecting.

As an example of the leftist trend, he cited the election two years ago of Brazilian President Luiz Inacio Lula da Silva, but he said Silva "has been acting quite responsibly with respect to economic and fiscal policy."

Powell reserved judgment on the implications of the leftist coalition that was elected last week in Uruguay.




Well I for one was pi$sed when I heard about this last year(I even wrote the Whitehouse and resighned from the Republican party).. and am mad it wasn't brought up during the presidential debates.


Does anyone else feel that this is absolutely INSANE?
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Med Tech
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Post by Med Tech »

Homeland Security is a joke. Bush shows no sign of reigning in the border situation, and now it'll be easier for terrorists to enter and then settle in.
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Post by Valkenar »

Why do you think it's insane to provide legal status to people who are already here working? Is it an economics issue? If so, would the cost of trying to round them all up and deport them save money? I doubt it, since they're here being productive. They may be getting less than minimum wage, but they're still doing work. If they had legal status, then those jobs would be paying minimum wage,.

If it's security, I think this helps, if anything. The illegal immigrants clearly have shown the ability to stay in country for years. The immigrants we're talking about need to work, which means we'll at least be aware of their presence. Right now that 8 million is just a guess because we have no idea who is here. If we document them, that's at least one step better than total ignorance. Further, real terrorists that are well-funded and don't need to work can live under the radar indefinitely, immigration papers or no immigration papers. Making 8 million mexicans legal isn't going to give them an ability to pull off terrorism they couldn't have otherwise.

Furthermore, I agree with medtech that homeland security is a joke, but probably for different reasons. It's almost fundamentally impossible to secure a large border without truly extreme measures. A giant wall across both borders, government seizure of all ocean-front property and inspection of each and every crate coming off of international cargo liners might do it. Even then I wouldn't count on it. There's basically no way to guarantee that no terrorists will get in. Security is that it's only as good as its weakest spot.
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Post by Med Tech »

Valkenar wrote:Why do you think it's insane to provide legal status to people who are already here working?
Um, cause they broke the law to get here? To work here? I don't know about you, but if I break the law, I expect to get arrested. Try being an illegal immigrant in France, and see where it gets you.
Is it an economics issue?
No, it's not, though that's what the pro-side always makes it into. It's a matter of the rule of law and the sovereignty of the USA. The laws need to be enforced, and the US needs to determine its' own immigration policies, instead of helping Mexico get rid of its' problems.
Right now that 8 million is just a guess because we have no idea who is here. If we document them, that's at least one step better than total ignorance.


Sounds alot like the pro-gun liscencing argument. Same problem, only those who plan to be law-abiding will do it, leaving us in a state of false security concerning those we don't know about. Add to that the burden of the masses that will flow over the border looking to get mass legalization themselves.

Further, real terrorists that are well-funded and don't need to work can live under the radar indefinitely, immigration papers or no immigration papers.
Thus the need to secure our borders better.
Making 8 million mexicans legal isn't going to give them an ability to pull off terrorism they couldn't have otherwise.
The problem with the 'great economic benefit' being touted here, is that once these people are citizens, they can't be paid migrant wages. Then we'll have all these minimum-wage workers, no jobs, and a need for more migrant workers. When does the nanny-state end?
Furthermore, I agree with medtech that homeland security is a joke, but probably for different reasons. It's almost fundamentally impossible to secure a large border without truly extreme measures
Bologna! Are you saying that you honostly believe the most powerful country in the world can't secure one border?
A giant wall across both borders, government seizure of all ocean-front property and inspection of each and every crate coming off of international cargo liners might do it.


No wonder you don't think it can be done. Look, the Border Patrol says it can be done. We just haven't given it the tools it needs to do its' job. I can't believe where we're at today. Can anybody think of any other country in the world where people think if they go there, they have a right to citizenship upon arrival?
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Post by cxt »

For what its worth.

The questions of the border and immigration has always been loaded.

But the bottom line is that a nation that cannot control its borders is in for major problems.

And in world where nut jobs can kill thosands of people on a whim, not having control of the borders is an open invatation to mass murder.

The USA has one of the most "easy" views on immigrants in the world.

Try to become a Japanese citizen sometime.

We really don't ask much.

I was argueing with a bud-ette (girl buddy) who insisted on comparing some of the propsed security measures--such as using the army to close the borders--as being "Stalinist."

Difference is that the Stalin was trying to keep folks from leaving their OWN nation.

Not even in the same ballpark as keeping folks from illegally entering YOUR country.

Its a major security risk, its illegal and it needs to be stopped.
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Post by benzocaine »

I suggest that people who really are angry about this issue do as I did and invest 37 cents on a stamp and write the Whitehouse and let GW know how you feel. Also write your senators and Congressmen.

This won't just go away unless we let the government know how we feel.

Here's GW's adress:

The White House
1600 Pennsylvania Avenue NW
Washington, DC 20500
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Post by Med Tech »

benzocaine wrote:I suggest that people who really are angry about this issue do as I did and invest 37 cents on a stamp and write the Whitehouse and let GW know how you feel. Also write your senators and Congressmen.
I envy you. I have no such confidence in my senators. Nothing I say will sway them one way or the other. Not even if 90% of my state agreed with me. This is just not an issue big enough to squash their pork-barrel careers. My congressmen are another issue entirely, but then I know based on their records and statements that they oppose this. I'm still sending reminders...
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Post by IJ »

I live in SoCal now and am caring for several people at this moment who are getting extensive, prolonged hospital workups and treatments (>/= 6 weeks, including workup for a liver transplant which is a scarce resource) so I'm sensitive to the issue. For sure.

Keep in mind that universities across the world have noted an astonishing influx of talent. Oxford and Cambridge have said they've pretty much seen nothing like it before. Why? It's getting harder for talented people to get into the USA. It's a 2 way street.

(NPR)
--Ian
benzocaine
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Post by benzocaine »

Ian,

Let's not forget that it just doesn't pay to be a Physician like it once did. Assuming we allowed more people into the US, I'd stillbe willing to bet that most of those people who sneak into the US in the dead of night are not Med School candidates.

I wonder what you are talking about when you talk about the transplant list? Are those folks illegals?

I've care for more than a few illegals who got "free" care because the hospital would never be able to find them again.. unless they wanted to give birth and become US citizens.. and then collect welfare for there new US ciizen babies. :evil: :x :bad-words:

Med Tech,

Send letters anyways.

I agree that polititians don't give a Rats behind aboput our needs.. especially if they get reelected and have lots of lobyist money coming there way. :( :bad-words:
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Post by IJ »

I know that those jumping borders aren't headed into R&D. The international brain drain is more a concern with those seeking visas for education here. The illegals DO perform a lot of desired manual labor here. A lot of people who bitch about them happily receive cleaning and lawn care on the cheap.
--Ian
benzocaine
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Post by benzocaine »

Trust me Ian. Here's one guy who will not give one red cent to an illegal to cut his grass. Oh.. and I don't Bitch.. I complain :)

And there are pleanty who don't go directly to L&D when they cross the borders, but soon after. I'm not sure about how many pregnant women you've interacted with but I my wife worked right up until delivery, so it IS possible.
benzocaine
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Post by benzocaine »

To continue on let me point out as Med Tech did earlier, that these people broke the law to work here.

And we are going to reward them for it by giving them legal status?

OPEN THE FLOODGATES!
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Post by Med Tech »

IJ wrote:I know that those jumping borders aren't headed into R&D. The international brain drain is more a concern with those seeking visas for education here. The illegals DO perform a lot of desired manual labor here. A lot of people who bitch about them happily receive cleaning and lawn care on the cheap.
Ian, I would say that illegals pouring over our borders makes it difficult to bring in more talent through legal immigration. As I said before, the illegals who perform manual labor illegally would no longer perform that labor legally, and we'd be stuck with manual labor that needs to be done, and a massive group of people unqualified for anything but minimum wage.
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Post by IJ »

Not sure I follow how illegal immigration for manual labor will cause physicists to loose interest in research positions and how and influx of manual labor will leave us with manual tasks undone..
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Post by Med Tech »

IJ wrote:Not sure I follow how illegal immigration for manual labor will cause physicists to loose interest in research positions and how and influx of manual labor will leave us with manual tasks undone..
Illegal immigration makes it harder for pro-immigration laws to be passed that would bring in fresh talent.
An influx of manual labor that once made citizenry and cannot be paid less than minimum wage leaves LOTS of tasks undone.
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