Is there such a thing as an evil person?

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Is there such a thing as an evil person?

Post by Med Tech »

Valkenar
"You said "evil folks intent on harming you or killing you are of no value." That is our fundamental disagreement. I do not believe there is such a thing as an "evil person" I don't even believe in evil per se, it's just a description of things we don't like. There are people who do horrible things constantly, but they're still human."
Valkenar, my apologies for lifting this from another discussion, but I'm narrowing it down to this sentiment to avoid tangents as much as possible. I believe this idea of whether or not evil or evil people exist, is central to the world view that says moral judgements on GLBT, illegal immigration, and a host of other issues, are out of line, and unreasonable.

The subject of good and evil has been hashed over for centuries, but I believe people are capable of great good, and great evil. I also believe that character is defined by ones' actions, and if the actions of an individual are evil, and unmitigated by acts of good, or even the prospect of good deeds, then that person is evil.

What do you think?
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Re: Is there such a thing as an evil person?

Post by Valkenar »

Med Tech wrote:Valkenar
Valkenar, my apologies for lifting this from another discussion, but I'm narrowing it down to this sentiment to avoid tangents as much as possible.
Not a problem at all.
I believe this idea of whether or not evil or evil people exist, is central to the world view that says moral judgements on GLBT, illegal immigration, and a host of other issues, are out of line, and unreasonable.
Well, just to clarify I don't think it's exactly unreasonable to make a moral judgement about anything you want to. Morality is ultimately not a rational process.. What I would say is wrong is acting on those moral judgements in certain ways.
I also believe that character is defined by ones' actions, and if the actions of an individual are evil, and unmitigated by acts of good, or even the prospect of good deeds, then that person is evil.
I won't say that the idea of a person who is wholely evil is absolutely impossible, but I don't think it's ever happened. I think maybe it comes down to a matter of definition. I certainly think there are people who are more bad than good. If you want to define that as an evil person that makes logical sense to me, though I wouldn't define it that way myself. Also I would add intention. I don't think someone who makes a terrible mistake is evil, which is a situation you can get into if you only consider the act.

To me, an evil person, or a good person is a sort of idealized concept that reality only approaches. For someone to be an evil person, they have to be completely and totally evil, both in action and in intent. The reason I would define it this way is because generally when people talk about evil persons it tends to sound like they think the person is, in every way, scum. Now if you ask them, they might say that they don't really think the person is ALL evil, but in practice it seems to work out that way. I think my definition works with the idea that a person does both good and evil, but is neither.

In my mind this is not a helpful approach because it tends to make us ignore a person's positive qualities when we've already decided they don't have any. The same goes for the reverse. We're inclined to think that people we like and respect don't really have flaws. Either way is fairly unrealistic.

Another reason I define it this way is because often when people describe a person as evil, they seem to be talking about a characteristic that is inherent and unchanging in that person. I do not think this is true, and I think it locks us into a counterproductive mindset.. I believe almost all of could seem evil if the right pressures were placed on us. I also believe almost anyone who seems evil now could appear (or could have appeared) good given the right circumstances.

Hitler is the obvious example of someone who is evil. But I would argue that if he had been born at a different time, in a different place, he might have used his abilities in a way that we would consider great. And even in the situation he was born in, he was not Dr. Sinister every minute of the day, he had personal relationships and so forth. Yet clearly he is a man who did great evil.

A current example, is terrorism. Some people talk as if terrorists are these inhuman creatures that are nothing like us. Well I not only think that's untrue, I think it limits our options to frame it that way. When we aren't willing to think of them as people who are being immoral rather than people who fundamentally are immoral, we cut ourselves off from avenues that attack the circumstance. Please, dear readers, don't construe this to mean I think we can just talk with them and work it out, nothing of the sort. But to treat them and consider them to be unthinking animals is a mistake both intellectually and tactically, in my opinion. That's somewhat off-topic though, my appologies.

I think that ultimately either of our definitions work, though I would have to add motive to yours to be comfortable using it.
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Post by Med Tech »

Well, just to clarify I don't think it's exactly unreasonable to make a moral judgement about anything you want to. Morality is ultimately not a rational process.. What I would say is wrong is acting on those moral judgements in certain ways.


I disagree in two ways; 1. I think that morality is LARGELY a rational process, morals being largely defined by one's cultural, religious and familial background, and informed by whatever information is available to them. That people get very emotional about their moral values is another matter.

2. Acting on moral judgements in 'certain ways' is vague, but I'd be willing to bet that we disagree on appropriate and inappropriate acts.
I won't say that the idea of a person who is wholely evil is absolutely impossible, but I don't think it's ever happened. I think maybe it comes down to a matter of definition. I certainly think there are people who are more bad than good. If you want to define that as an evil person that makes logical sense to me, though I wouldn't define it that way myself.
Here it can be a difficult line to draw, but I think everyone can and should be able to draw that line for themselves. I think that if a person is more bad than good, that the person is obviously not a good person. Does this make them a 'bad person?' You say no. I say yes.

In a self-defense situation, do you feel that someone has a right to kill their attacker if the attacker put the victim's life in danger?
Also I would add intention. I don't think someone who makes a terrible mistake is evil, which is a situation you can get into if you only consider the act.
Depends on the mistake, don't you think? If the mistake costs lives and/or immense property damage, then by their negligence or wilfull act an evil thing has happened. If they refuse to be held accountable for that mistake, THEN they are committing an evil act. In my opinion, living a life of CYA at the expense of others makes a person evil in a way, and should be treated as such.
To me, an evil person, or a good person is a sort of idealized concept that reality only approaches. For someone to be an evil person, they have to be completely and totally evil, both in action and in intent.
I disagree, because I believe that evil is the corruption of good. Whether the person's intent is only to secure riches for themself and their family is irrelevent if their actions result in the irrevocable loss of life or quality of life. I don't believe there is such a thing as a wholly good person, so setting a standard of absolute evil as a standard of evil is disingenuous for myself.
The reason I would define it this way is because generally when people talk about evil persons it tends to sound like they think the person is, in every way, scum.
Now if you ask them, they might say that they don't really think the person is ALL evil, but in practice it seems to work out that way. I think my definition works with the idea that a person does both good and evil, but is neither.


I can't deny that water-cooler conversation tends to be over-generalized and stereotypical. I generally don't contribute to that at work. If someone asks my opinion, I usually take a good half-hour answering it, since I try to draw more than a yes-or-no from them. I don't often get asked the same question by any of my co-workers, so the trade-off of not getting asked alot of questions is that I don't often have to repeat myself;)
In my mind this is not a helpful approach because it tends to make us ignore a person's positive qualities when we've already decided they don't have any. The same goes for the reverse. We're inclined to think that people we like and respect don't really have flaws. Either way is fairly unrealistic.
Wouldn't you agree that we also see the flipside of this? Consider recent biopics and books about controversial figures like Casius Clay, Kinsey, Yasser Arafat and Martin Luther King, Jr. How often do you hear about character flaws, or known deeds that are more often than not shoved under the rug? If a person is percieved as good, how often are they set up on a pedestal and washed of their sin for the 'greater good' of the causes they championed?
Another reason I define it this way is because often when people describe a person as evil, they seem to be talking about a characteristic that is inherent and unchanging in that person. I do not think this is true, and I think it locks us into a counterproductive mindset.. I believe almost all of could seem evil if the right pressures were placed on us. I also believe almost anyone who seems evil now could appear (or could have appeared) good given the right circumstances.
If a person is possessed of a character trait that has led to evil acts, then it is highly unlikely that they will redeem themselves at some point. Recidivism is high among those who have served time in prison. People who commit evil acts, and are not caught, often repeat them until they are caught. These are facts. I think that whether a person is good or evil relies largely upoin how they act under the right OR wrong circumstances. Circumstances define character. People define the perception of that character. OBL may be percieved as a leader and a good person among some middle-eastern people, but that does not change the fact that he has plotted murder and destruction and profited from such. He is an evil person, regardless of the warm and fuzzies some might get over how he acts towards his wives or children.
Hitler is the obvious example of someone who is evil. But I would argue that if he had been born at a different time, in a different place, he might have used his abilities in a way that we would consider great


But he wasn't and didn't. We only get one chance in life, Val, and I while I believe we should look at what a person had the potential to do, we must look at what a person does as the ultimate factor. Bill Clinton had great potential, but he bungled it. Was he a bad president? I don't think so, but I also don't think he was a good one, even though he could have been a great one.
A current example, is terrorism. Some people talk as if terrorists are these inhuman creatures that are nothing like us. Well I not only think that's untrue, I think it limits our options to frame it that way. When we aren't willing to think of them as people who are being immoral rather than people who fundamentally are immoral, we cut ourselves off from avenues that attack the circumstance.
I happen to think that someone who can murder an innocent person, or three thousand innocents, is inhuman, and nothing like me, and less than human. Does that mean that I am incapable of such? No. I am capable of great good and great evil, just like anyone else. But committing such acts would make me less than I am.

Please, dear readers, don't construe this to mean I think we can just talk with them and work it out, nothing of the sort. But to treat them and consider them to be unthinking animals is a mistake both intellectually and tactically, in my opinion. That's somewhat off-topic though, my appologies.
No apology necessary. I agree, to the extent that to diminish the enemy's intelligence and ability is a flawed way to approach the defeat of that enemy.
I think that ultimately either of our definitions work, though I would have to add motive to yours to be comfortable using it.
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Post by Valkenar »

I think that morality is LARGELY a rational process, morals being largely defined by one's cultural, religious and familial background, and informed by whatever information is available to them.
True enough, but at their core they are not a rational process. Ultimately you are either taught morals or derive them from something you consider to be a priori truth. They are not rooted on a logical foundation. Even people who attempt to derive them from very basic assumptions are still working from assumptions. This is what I mean when I say it is not a rational process. One can extrapolate rationaly from your one's beliefs, but those core beliefs are not themselves rational.
Acting on moral judgements in 'certain ways' is vague, but I'd be willing to bet that we disagree on appropriate and inappropriate acts.
I think that's quite certain. :) Banning gay marriage is the recent example, of course.
I think that if a person is more bad than good, that the person is obviously not a good person.
That's just it, by my way of thinking it doesn't really make sense to say someone is a "good" or "bad" person. You can talk about what they've done and what you expect they might do, but that's not the same thing. Here we just disagree about the use of words more than the concepts I think.
In a self-defense situation, do you feel that someone has a right to kill their attacker if the attacker put the victim's life in danger?
Yes, if someone is going to die anyway, it should be the attacker, in most cases.
Depends on the mistake, don't you think? If the mistake costs lives and/or immense property damage, then by their negligence or wilfull act an evil thing has happened.
The accountability is a seperate issue. I would agree it is wrong to fail to clean up after your errors. If someone designs a faulty elevator and people are killed by it, that doesn't mean it was an evil act to make a mistake in the design. But yes, if the company who produces the elevator keeps making it figuring they'll make more money selling them and paying off lawsuits than they would redesigning it, that would be an immoral act.
I disagree, because I believe that evil is the corruption of good.
How do you mean?
I don't believe there is such a thing as a wholly good person
Neither do I. I don't believe I could ever be a wholly good person, I don't think anyone can be, really. It's an ideal. It doesn't bother me that I can never achieve my ideal of ultimate goodness, just as it doesn't bother me that I can't achieve my ideal of ultimate physical ability.
Wouldn't you agree that we also see the flipside of [idealized historical figures]?
Definitely, and it's just as bad.
If a person is possessed of a character trait that has led to evil acts, then it is highly unlikely that they will redeem themselves at some point.
That's just it. The same character trait can lead to good or evil depending on the circumstance.
He is an evil person, regardless of the warm and fuzzies some might get over how he acts towards his wives or children.
I fully agree that he does way way more harm than good. But I'm not willing to cast him as a one-dimensional evildoer, because he's not that simple. Nobody is.
But he wasn't and didn't. We only get one chance in life, Val, and I while I believe we should look at what a person had the potential to do, we must look at what a person does as the ultimate factor.
Right, and if you ask me what kind of person Hitler was, I'd say he was a person who did terrible things. I guess I don't see what is to be gained from distilling people down to characterization as good or evil.
I happen to think that someone who can murder an innocent person, or three thousand innocents, is inhuman, and nothing like me, and less than human.
Well I suspect we have different ideas of what it means to be human. I would presume from what I know of your beliefs that you believe in a soul, whereas I don't. I think being human simply means being a certain type of mammal.
I think that ultimately either of our definitions work, though I would have to add motive to yours to be comfortable using it.
Just what I said above, that without allowing intention into the act you end up with some kind of absurd conclusions, like that children who accidentally shoot each other are evil and so forth. What I mean is that your definition is generally fine, but if I'm going to be specific I would prefer mine.
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Post by cxt »

Yes, there is such thing as an evil person.

Weirdly enough very few of them actually see themselves as "evil."

Even Hitler was convienced of the "rightness" of his actions.

For that reason I tend to shy away from moral/relgious views of what makes an "evil" person.

Mainly due to the ideosyncratic nature of such judgements.

ie. They tend to very.

By way of example look above at Valkenars statment of the difference of people BEING immoral and FUNDAMENTAL immorality.

See, according to their relgious interpretation--THEY ARE NOT "BEING" IMMORAL.
They are in fact "heros."
The fact that mainsteam Islam see's them as quite different is exactly my point.

I also tend to remove "intent"--after all that again is very subjective.

I pretty much focus on actions and behavior.

Crashing planes into blgds full of innocent people= Evil

Blowing up a busload of innocent people=Evil

Serial Killers= Evil

Child Molesters=Evil
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Post by Sochin »

Apropos to the topic is Staton Samenow's Inside the Criminal Mind, ISBN: 0-8129-1082-6:

Chapter Two - Myths about Criminals

Chapter Three - Parents don't turn their children into criminals

Basic tenent: career criminals are born twisted...

Of course, this is much maligned!

A lot of new psychology follows in this tradition - I just saw a book in the school counselors office, (waiting for a meeting about my foster kids), which delves into the child 'pathological' liar but I can't for the life of me remember the name of it.

As a Christian with a studied understanding (eight years study of comparative religion and Christian theology) of how I think the human psyche works, I believe in human evil. And working with angry, criminal, deranged and just plain bad kids for nearly 30 years, has not changed my mind.

I don't argue religion on martial arts sites so this is the last post here on this topic...just expressing a pov, not wanting to harrass anyone.
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Post by IJ »

I'd say there have to be evil people, otherwise the word has no meaning. Some people are just cruel, selfish, violent, nonproductive animals without empathy. This is another thing we can argue re: nature/nuture, but if you want to know if there is evil out there spend a few nights watching "forensics files," and see how people are tortured and killed for entertainment. Great show in that you can watch and know they'll catch the baddie, too.

As for moral judgements being irrational, etc, that depends on what they're derived. There are a lot of core moral values that are pretty uniformly defined and accepted:

beneficence: help people (charity, sacrifice, relief and prevention of suffering, creation and preservation of things of value)

nonmaleficence: first, do no harm.

presevation of autonomy: leave people alone to make their own decisions.

truth telling: a commandment to some, the right thing to do for most.

In general: the golden rule. Do unto others....

Etc. These are big ones though. Fairly noncontroversial. And, I believe, not irrational. These are all things that 1) can reasonable be expected to improve our lot if we all subscribe 2) we would like to have extended to us. That's a perfectly rational basis for a moral system.

There are clearly disputes. These priorities conflict: medicine makes me choose to deny people their autonomy when they aren't well enough to choose for themselves. Or, if they are, I have to let them make bad health choices. I shade the truth in a calculated effort to break news to people in as pleasant and understandable terms as possible. I balance needs of the few against the many with limited health resources. But, even when reasonable people disagree, most of the time we can all see we're all trying to follow that golden rule.

Religion is another area of controversy. To the doubtful, adhering to rules proposed by beings whose existance or intent is debatable is not rational. *I* don't think it is strictly rational to violate the above rules just because an abstract belief system tells you to. But then, some of the best parts of life aren't rational. Art. Love. Etc. And I don't worry about a system being strictly rational (in my littel opinion) when I can also tell adherents are at least trying to do the right thing. So we sit down, or type away at the forum threads, and try to reach compromises.

There are some serious a$$holes out there who aren't trying to do the right thing. If they have control over their actions (contrast: psychotics), they're the ones we call evil.
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Post by RA Miller »

There is evil.

If someone can cut open a two-year old baby with a tin can lid and rape the wounds, there is evil.

If that criminal can then be nice and polite, even charming, it only means that evil can hide.

Totally evil would depend on how much mental gymnastics you are willing to do. If you can convince yourself that the criminal has a perfectly good kidney that might be transplanted and save the life of an innocent person...hence by the value of his kidney he's not COMPLETELY evil then the concept is meaningless.

Here's a paradigm: Needs, desires, wants and whims. To a truly evil person, their whims are more important than another persons needs. They will strangle out of boredom. A slightly less evil person will burn someone for attention. Slightly less evil will shoot someone for the last cigarette or unrequited love. The balance tilts at needs, where most people will kill to live.

Just an idea.

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Post by benzocaine »

Are there evil people??

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Post by Paul_C »

I agree Hitler was evil. But is evil sometimes defined by the victors? If Hitler won would he still go down in the History books as evil? Under the same token wouldn't Andrew Jackson be defined as evil for enforcing the Indian removal act of 1830? Or any American President involved in the removal/slaughter of Native Americans?
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Post by IJ »

I'm gonna go out on a limb here and say that decimating and displacing the Native American nations to take their land WAS indeed evil, regardless of who's writing the history books.
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Post by Med Tech »


I agree Hitler was evil. But is evil sometimes defined by the victors? If Hitler won would he still go down in the History books as evil? Under the same token wouldn't Andrew Jackson be defined as evil for enforcing the Indian removal act of 1830? Or any American President involved in the removal/slaughter of Native Americans?
I'm gonna go out on a limb here and say that decimating and displacing the Native American nations to take their land WAS indeed evil, regardless of who's writing the history books.
Okay, I'd say that yes, the Indian Removal Act was evil, and any act in support of it was evil. However, Andrew Jackson was a complicated guy. You could say he was evil for shooting others, but you'd have to ignore that those he shot were dueling him. You could say that Andrew Jackson was evil for enforcing the aforementioned act, but you'd have to ignore his background in that area, too. In the military, Jackson fought Native Americans for years. He witnessed the aftermath of the massacre of whites at Fort Mims. He battled the Creek. He fought against the Seminoles who were raiding the frontier in Georgia. You also have to take in account that for a president, he was poorly educated, had minimal experience in public service, and for all we can tell, honestly believed that in removing the Native Americans from the southeast, he was saving them from annihilation. Andrew Jackson was an immensely popular president who made another stupid mistake. Our economy took quite a hit when he eliminated the federal bank. Evil? No, I don't think so. Andrew Jackson was a hard man whose good intentions often resulted in bad things, but he was not a Hitler.
Last edited by Med Tech on Tue Nov 16, 2004 12:27 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by sarosenc »

There is indeed evil in the world. People who are evil, or are perceived to be evil, have chosen to do evil.

For evil to be judged to be such there must be a standard called good. This is at the heart of morality and is more than knowledge of good and evil, but something that we all are born with. No one is objectively moral or immoral. You must choose and there is an absolute truth. To be anything but absolute would make it a lie, by definition truth is exclusive.
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Post by Dana Sheets »

Andrew Jackson was a hard man whose good intentions often resulted in bad things, but he was not a Hitler.
Do you think you would say the same thing if you were Native American? If you knew that millions of your people lost their lives and their land and today are sentenced to poverty and anguish and are still ignored by our well-intentioned government that displaced them?

Evil is relative.

I think what gets fuzzy is the line between bad and evil.
Unless we agree to a working definition of "evil" then we can't really discuss it.

evil
adj. e·vil·er, e·vil·est
Morally bad or wrong; wicked: an evil tyrant.

Causing ruin, injury, or pain; harmful: the evil effects of a poor diet.
Characterized by or indicating future misfortune; ominous: evil omens.
Bad or blameworthy by report; infamous: an evil reputation.
Characterized by anger or spite; malicious: an evil temper.

Being evil means being bad, but does being bad mean you're being evil?
Did you show compassion today?
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Post by Med Tech »

Dana Sheets wrote:
Do you think you would say the same thing if you were Native American? If you knew that millions of your people lost their lives and their land and today are sentenced to poverty and anguish and are still ignored by our well-intentioned government that displaced them?
Perception of evil is not the same as evil. Native Americans can blame Jackson and the like for their present condition till they're blue in the face, and nothing will change, except the continued loss of potential. Or they can look at the Native Americans who have joined fully into the American society and thrived. Mostly it is those who continue to live on reservations and 'live the old ways' who are living in poverty and anguish. Unless of course they have a casino in place to finance their 'culture.'
Evil is relative.


Evil is not relative. Perceptions can be changed with truth and time, but evil is evil.
Being evil means being bad, but does being bad mean you're being evil?
Jackson was a good soldier and a bad president. Being bad at something doesn't make you evil. Then again, he didn't make as good a puppet as his supporters thought him to be, he fought hard against those who sought to control him, and against what he considered 'elitism.' Now, if you can argue that Jackson intended to move the Native Americans with the goal to up-end them, destroy their culture, and eliminate them by attrition, then you could say he was evil. Evil is not relative, and neither is good. Success or failure, perhaps, but not those.
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