Dewey, Chetham, and Howe at it again

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Can you really bridge the gap between reality and training? Between traditional karate and real world encounters? Absolutely, we will address in this forum why this transition is necessary and critical for survival, and provide suggestions on how to do this correctly. So come in and feel welcomed, but leave your egos at the door!
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Post by RACastanet »

You are speaking about the company in which George Westinghouse helped create right?
Nope, Tom Edison.
Do have access to all the levels of workings within one of the country's largest private employers?
Not since I decided to move on to do something else, but up to March 2003 I had very good internal info. For many years I was an at large member of the Industrial Review Board (led by company VPs and above) and reviewed what was going on in the company. Occasionally had dinner with the Board of Directors! Had lunch with the CEO (Welch) a few years back. Plus, anything that even smacked of impropriety was on the front page of the WSJ for all to see.

Now, as for your absolute statement, what do you base that on? What all have you done in your working lifetime? You are a school teacher right? Ever work in a Fortune 500 company. How about a Fortune 10? I spent almost 29 years deeply involved in the top tier of Fortune 500 companies, about 50 of them in fact.

In addition to being in industry for so many years I have 2 years as a high school teacher. Also, tomorrow is my 5th anniversary with the Marine Corps. Hmm... time for Med or Law school to round out this lifetime. :wink:

Big business is in the business to make money for the shareholders, nothing else. Some people do not like the fact that a GE posted a $16.6 billion profit last year, but in the process of doing so will employ those hundreds of thousands of people in really good jobs with good benefits. Also, GE paid out $8.6 billion in dividends to shareholders, and $$billions in fed, state and local taxes. Plus, the employees then paid out anywhere from 14.6% to over 50% in taxes on the money they earned. So, the GEs of the world are a huge driver of the economy and a huge fund source for the taxing entities.

A few companies are bad apples and spoil it for the vast majority of good companies. The ripple effect on the Fortune 500 caused by the Enrons and Worldcoms of the world have cost shareholders dearly.


Now, lets talk about institutions that should be under scrutiny... In the past few weeks the entire admin staff at a local school was fired for cooking the grade books. A teacher was fired for pedophelia, an athletic coach/teacher was fired for fondling students, a teacher was fired for bringing a loaded gun into the classroom... I can go on and on. This does not make the front page of the WSJ but should as some of those in charge of educating our youth are instead conducting illegal activities. But, are all schools and teachers bad? Nope. I really enjoy my time as a teacher.

My military experience is limited to the Corps but they are absolutely committed and honorable as a whole. Some like to blow off steam on occasion but all are GREAT AMERICANS.

So, once again, what experience do you have that allows you to make such broad statements? I personally do not believe you can speak to the state of big business as you probably only get your info from the media. I was an insider.

Rich
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Post by mikemurphy »

Rich,


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You are speaking about the company in which George Westinghouse helped create right?
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Nope, Tom Edison.

Obviously the joke was lost here.


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quote:
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Do have access to all the levels of workings within one of the country's largest private employers?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



>Not since I decided to move on to do something else, but up to March 2003 I had very good internal info. For many years I was an at large member of the Industrial Review Board (led by company VPs and above) and reviewed what was going on in the company. Occasionally had dinner with the Board of Directors! Had lunch with the CEO (Welch) a few years back. Plus, anything that even smacked of impropriety was on the front page of the WSJ for all to see.<

Lunch with "Neutron Jack"? That's pretty impressive. This is the guy who cut 100,000 jobs when he took over? Obviously not yours or maybe you would have a different point of view of the man. This is also the guy who thought the pennies per hour Asians working in the sweatshops of Asia for GE should be fired so that his salary could be increased because he was upset he didn't equal up to his CEO peers?

BTW, did you lunches with the CEO and vps include conversation of all the corruption you fail to mention like in India or Indonesia? Or how about right at home:

Contents copyright 2001 by Midwest Today. All rights reserved.
• cheating the army on a $254 million contract for battlefield computers (GE paid $16.1 million in fines);
• allegedly altering 9,000 daily labor vouchers to inflate its Pentagon billings on jet engines (GE paid a $3.5 million settlement);
• attempting to pay a $1.25 million bribe to a Puerto Rican official for a $92 million power plant contract (three GE executives went to prison);
• defrauding the air force on a Minuteman intercontinental missile contract ($1 million in fines);
• allegedly selling nuclear reactor parts known to be defective (GE agreed to a sealed settlement: amount unknown);
• discriminating against women and minorities ($32 million settlement);
• allegedly overcharging the army for battle tank parts ($900,000 settlement); and
• bearing responsibility for no fewer than forty-seven of the EPA's Superfund toxic cleanup sites.

I could go on with that, but GE is not sounding so angelic after all.

<Now, as for your absolute statement, what do you base that on? What all have you done in your working lifetime? You are a school teacher right? Ever work in a Fortune 500 company. How about a Fortune 10? I spent almost 29 years deeply involved in the top tier of Fortune 500 companies, about 50 of them in fact.>

I'm impressed that you remember what I do for a living? Anyway, to answer your question, I never got around to having lunch with CEO's or vps,
but, yes, I worked for General Dynamics Corp. and United Technologies Inc.
Those are Fortune 500 companies I think.

>In addition to being in industry for so many years I have 2 years as a high school teacher. Also, tomorrow is my 5th anniversary with the Marine Corps. Hmm... time for Med or Law school to round out this lifetime.>

If you can find time for Med or Law school, then you can make any absolute statements you wish in my book.

>Big business is in the business to make money for the shareholders, nothing else. Some people do not like the fact that a GE posted a $16.6 billion profit last year, but in the process of doing so will employ those hundreds of thousands of people in really good jobs with good benefits. Also, GE paid out $8.6 billion in dividends to shareholders, and $$billions in fed, state and local taxes. Plus, the employees then paid out anywhere from 14.6% to over 50% in taxes on the money they earned. So, the GEs of the world are a huge driver of the economy and a huge fund source for the taxing entities.<

And a huge contributor to administrations who will ensure them huge tax cuts (like they need it)...(i.e. Reagan & Bush).

<Now, lets talk about institutions that should be under scrutiny... In the past few weeks the entire admin staff at a local school was fired for cooking the grade books. A teacher was fired for pedophelia, an athletic coach/teacher was fired for fondling students, a teacher was fired for bringing a loaded gun into the classroom... I can go on and on. This does not make the front page of the WSJ but should as some of those in charge of educating our youth are instead conducting illegal activities. But, are all schools and teachers bad? Nope. I really enjoy my time as a teacher.>

I really think this is comparing apples and oranges.

<My military experience is limited to the Corps but they are absolutely committed and honorable as a whole. Some like to blow off steam on occasion but all are GREAT AMERICANS.>

This would be a decent comparison. I've never been in the Corps, and although they consider themselves the elite of the elite, there are still those who are a little less than desirable (I wouldn't call them Great Americans). I say this because I used to read a friend of mine's newspaper from Paris Island that had all the legal matters in the back.

<So, once again, what experience do you have that allows you to make such broad statements? I personally do not believe you can speak to the state of big business as you probably only get your info from the media. I was an insider.>

I don't think the broad statements, as you put it, are that far off. My experience is my experience, which isn't really the issue. Your experience includes this relationship with some people in the world's largest company, but how much do you really know about it? Are you in on the back room deals made in Washington? How about the legal department? Do they call you in to be briefed of everything they are litigating? Once again, if you have the time to be doing all that, then I stand corrected. But, it's a hard sell.

mike
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Post by Gene DeMambro »

Rich, any deas why more companies don't follow the GE mold?

Extrapolating what you know about GE, can you guess what GE would have done if they had a blockbuster drug (like Vioxx), but had advanced knowldge of its dangers? Would they have disclosed it (potentially risking a lot in sales and maybe even being rejected for marketing by regulators), or would they have not disclosed the risks (and taking their chances).
Hmm... time for Med or Law school to round out this lifetime
Go for law school!

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Post by RACastanet »

I must reply to your unsubstantiated comments Mike, but first I will reply to Gene. Some of it will apply to your commentary as well.
Go for law school!
This is probably the best bet. I'd really like to understand formal law. I'd do it as a hobby just for the knowledge though as I have no interest in being an attorney. No medical school would be interested because I would be in it just for the knowledge. I have considered EMT and Paramedic training as a possibility. We shall see. No hurry on my part.
Rich, any deas why more companies don't follow the GE mold?
Quite a few do. GE has been voted as the best managed company by its peers in the Fortune 1,000 the last 4 or 5 years, and has always been near the top in that ranking in the last 30 years. GE has its own corporate college at Crotonville NY where its future leaders are nurtured. Many GE alum are running large companies these days... Honeywell, Home Depot, 3M, Boing, Stanley Works come to mind.

Mike asked how I knew so much about the internal workings of GE and other companies. As a side job in GE I was trained in many methodologies as a trainer. That included 'Work Out', Change Acceleration, Six Sigma, Best Practices...

I was available within GE and also to corporate clients as an instructor in the ways of GE. Most often this training was first introduced to the top level of management of a company. The followup was to then take it down the ladder as well as train some of their employees in the GE way. I had access to and was allowed to offer the full GE 'tool kit' at no charge to non competeing corporate entities.

GE was easily 10 years ahead of corporate America in the 90s and that led to GE's growth in stature and profits. Observant companies wanted in on the secrets. Unfortunately, many only paid lip service to the processes and just did not follow up. At GE under Welch, and now Immelt, change was a way of life. Love it or leave it. constant change really is part of the culture.
Extrapolating what you know about GE, can you guess what GE would have done if they had a blockbuster drug (like Vioxx), but had advanced knowldge of its dangers?
This is a tough one to answer, but I did see it occur on several occasions. When freon was deemed bad for the ozone and banned GE had to face the fact that there were millions and millions of gallons of the stuff in products with the GE name on it. Also, millions of appliances were being produced annually that relied on it.

I was in the Industrial business at that time and was told to visit every known owner of a GE product with freon in it and tell him how we could deal with it as a team. The same happened in 1977 when PCBs were banned. It was painful but it was dealt with. I have no idea what that cost GE but it was at least hundreds of $millions.

The appliance business did take a one time $400 million hit over freon and compressers in refrigerators in the early 90s. Were the products bad? No. was R12 really the culprit environmentalists claimed it was? I question that and the PCB issue. Is the replacement R134 any better? Definitely inferior as a coolant.

Whenever there is a plane crash related to an engine problem GE immediately mobilizes a task force to evaluate the problem. I have yet to hear of a crash due to a 'bad' product. Usualy it is a result of improper maintenance. GE engines are somewhere better than 7 Sigma in reliability.

Another safety is the corporate audit staff. More on that in my next post.
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Post by RACastanet »

Now to Mike...
I could go on with that, but GE is not sounding so angelic after all.
I could also go on and on, however, you miss the point. These transgressions were not the result of corporate policies, these were all created by individuals. Perhaps for $$, perhaps to burnish their resume. Close to 100% of the intgrity issues were turned up by GE and reported to the SEC, FTC or whoever. Then GE aided in the prosecution of said individuals.

Bad behavior is not tolerated. But, with so many employees you will get smen bad characters. Statistically speaking, out of every 100 people, you will get two with sociopathic tendencies. Rules do not apply to them. Hiring screens cannot always catch them.

GE has a huge corporate audit staff. This group reports in to the CEO. They turn over every stone. You never knew when or where the teams would show up. You might come in at 0800 and find that a team has been in your office since midnight. If you had a locked closet or cabinet you had to open it and then go away. And these guys/gals are good. Every T better be crossed and every penny accounted for. This type of internal watchdog keeps honest people, and even most of the dishonest people, on the straight and narrow.
Lunch with "Neutron Jack"? That's pretty impressive. This is the guy who cut 100,000 jobs when he took over? Obviously not yours or maybe you would have a different point of view of the man.
Yep, that Jack. He really hated that nickname by the way. In fact, I have one of his books on my shelf that he personalized and signed before giving it to me.

Yes, I did survive because I got the message. Jack promised change to improve the company. Those that resisted did not last long. He promoted a huge culture shift.

Was it painful? Yes. I had a plant closed down out from under me in 1986. It made good financial sense to be honest. Did I whine? No, I found a better job in the company. Here in Richmond in fact.

Welch is/was a visionary. He saw a 100 year old company living in the past. He knew that GE needed to change or face extinction and he took the painful steps necessary. Was he successful? You bet. GE is about 10 times as large as ir was when he took over and immensley profitable. Those 100,000 jobs were replaced with better ones. And really, 100,000 jobs did not disappear, they just turned up under a different company. When we sold the small table appliance business to Black and Decker, they merely took over the factory. Upper management was hit (I bet you like that) but the assembly people stayed put.

Also, look at GEs major competitors in 1980 and ask where they are today? Westinghouse is gone except for the use of its name under license agreements. You will see W christmas tree lights nd cheap TVs but there is no Westinhouse Electric. Next would have been ITE Imperial. Who? They eventually became ITE Brown Bovari and eventuall disappeared into ABB. Then there was Allis Chalmers. They eventually became Siemans-Allis and then disappeared into Siemens. How about Sylvania? They were eaten by Phillips along with what was lesf tof the W lamp business.

We offered our sevices to the auto companies but they were 'as good as GE' and did not see the need to change. See where that got them?

Only GE survived. Change was necessary and Welch knew it and made it happen.
This is also the guy who thought the pennies per hour Asians working in the sweatshops of Asia for GE should be fired so that his salary could be increased because he was upset he didn't equal up to his CEO peers?
You will need to elaborate on this point. GE just is not in sweatshop type businesses anywhere. GE products require highly trained staffs and serious capital equipment expenditures. As for what GE pays workers in offshore plants please show me documentation and sources. GE has long been vilified by localities because it comes in and disrupts the local pay scales by paying more than is the custom. Might be pennies, but it is more than they used to get and they are thrilled. But again, GE is a high tech company and even in India salaries are high with respect to what the locals used to get.

This is BS. Site your source please. There was a fuss made over welch's perks after he retired. In 1996 he had aheart attack and bypass surgery. I saw him at a BOD dinner in april 1997 and he looked terrible. It was a shock as I had not seen him face to face in years. He was considering retiring at 62 because of his health and the BOD offered him a huge $$ incentive to stay. he actually turned down the cash and instead asked for perpetual use of a GE owned condo in New York, a limo and a company plane. And, the best part, season tickets to Red Sox games! when the corporate stuff hit the fan after the bubble burst much was made of this largesse and he terminated the plan. It was the BOD that set this up, not Welch.

Remember now, this is the man chosen CEO of the 20th century by his peers, not a crook like the Enron bunch. In terms of shareholder value growth, he was underpaid.
BTW, did you lunches with the CEO and vps include conversation of all the corruption you fail to mention like in India or Indonesia?
Site your sources please... Problems are always discussed. When you had a room filled with the top business leaders of the Global Economy there was little idle chit chat. However, Welch was an excellent golfer -zero handicap - and did brag that he beat Greg Norman at golf. That was in the early 90s though.
General Dynamics Corp. and United Technologies Inc.
Yes, great companies.
there are still those who are a little less than desirable (I wouldn't call them Great Americans). I say this because I used to read a friend of mine's newspaper from Paris Island that had all the legal matters in the back.
Anybody in the military is a great American. They put themselves in harms way for about minimum wage. As for Parris Island, that is an interesting place and they have their issues. Consider though, that the facility has thousands of 17, 18 and 19 year old kids coming and going weekly. Some are at risk types from the lower end of society. With 30,000 recruits trained every year the 2% stat on sociopathic types means there will be quite a few incorrigable on the island at any one time. The worst get weeded out quickly. I have met some. But after boot camp most are the most honorable and respectful people you would ever want to meet. If society at large was as committed and honerable as the 30,000 new Marines that come out each year the US would be a much better place.

The worst time for a new Marine is usually the ten days they get between boot camp and infantry school. After 13 weeks of hardship some just loose control when they hit the street. On returning they all get a drug test and there is no mercy. Test positive and your 13 weeks were a waste. It is off to the brig and then out of the Corps.
how much do you really know about it?
See my post to Gene for some info. I volunteered to be a trainer of GE methods as a side job so was pretty much into everything at all levels at one point or another. Sometimes I was called to facilitate a session dealing with problems and issues in a business. Everything was out on the table. Everything. That is the only way change could be implemented. This was one of the stumbling blocks when asked to facilitate sessions outside of GE. Openness was/is part of the GE culture. At most companies people were afraid to air the dirty laundry. No, I did not know everything, but I do know an awful lot given my inside access.
Are you in on the back room deals made in Washington?
Once again, please site your sources. I'd love to see your documentation. For years naysayers whie that GE must be crooked because they are so profitable. Not true. Can you say 'outstanding corporate management'? That is the secret.

GE was and is a Justice Dept breakup target precisely because it is so successful. Look at AT&T. They were destroyed by the justice Dept and are a mere shadow of the pre split company. and now, the baby bells are remerging into just the beheamoth AT&T was vilified for being.

Look at Microsoft as anothe rgood example. If anything, GE is under more scrutiny than any other company over time. Right now though, the oil companies and big pharma has the spotlight.

As a reminder Mike, please site your sources.

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Post by IJ »

Or the short version: Mike, does this belong in another thread, and if so, could we find a more corrupt company to critique?
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GE

Post by mikemurphy »

Rich,

GE talk and corruption would probably be better off in another thread as I really went off on a tangent there, but that wasn't the real gist of my post anyway. I was simply pointing out the practice of stating absolutes. You say you don't do it, but then.....

"Anybody in the military is a great American. They put themselves in harms way for about minimum wage. As for Parris Island, that is an interesting place and they have their issues. Consider though, that the facility has thousands of 17, 18 and 19 year old kids coming and going weekly. Some are at risk types from the lower end of society. With 30,000 recruits trained every year the 2% stat on sociopathic types means there will be quite a few incorrigable on the island at any one time. The worst get weeded out quickly. I have met some. But after boot camp most are the most honorable and respectful people you would ever want to meet. If society at large was as committed and honerable as the 30,000 new Marines that come out each year the US would be a much better place. "

How can you say this? Do you happen to know every American that has been in the service? Of course you don't. I know plenty of guys who have joined and served and some of them are not, nor ever will be, great Americans as you put it. I certainly applaud each and every person that joins the military, but to call them great is a far stretch. Police and firemen put themselves in harm's way every day of their lives; they don't have a term of enlistment and LOA, and I wouldn't call all of them Great Americans. Again, some are, but I would be ignorant to call them all that.

IJ,

What's wrong with the conversation about GE? Corruption is corruption no matter how many times it's done, or how many times the company has been caught.

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Post by mikemurphy »

Rich,

When or if you start the new thread on GE and corruption, I too would like to see the cited sources.

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Post by RACastanet »

No new thread needed. This thread is just fine. Start a new one if you like.

The 'corruption' you identify is not by a corporation but by greedy or just sociopathic individual employees. GE participates in the prosecution of anyone involved in malfeasance.

You have cited what you call corruption, sweatshop wages, back room deals. You have given no references. You are parroting what you have heard through business unfriendly media. You give me documented cases and site your refernces and I will respond with my references.

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Post by mikemurphy »

Rich,

What's the point? From this statement, it really doesn't matter what the source is as you will label it "unfriendly media."

> You are parroting what you have heard through business unfriendly media.<

Not to mention the dig that I'm simply parroting from this source. Let's get this right. You throw out some facts and figures that anybody can get off the web about GE's profits etc.. and then you throw out these anecdotal stories about lunch and golf with the noteworthy CEO of the largest company in the world. But where is your background in this company where you can defend the absolute pureness of the company? You were a trainer? Hardly a position to know the inner dealings of GE. But if this were true, where is your proof? Not to put down the position of trainer as it is very important in many companies, but it is not exactly a special advisor to the CEO, or para-legal in the Legal Dept, or even a nobody in the GE lobby. You speak about getting information from "unfriendly media," but what you are really saying is that it is simply media that doesn't advocate what you say; therefore, it's wrong.


<I could also go on and on, however, you miss the point. These transgressions were not the result of corporate policies, these were all created by individuals. Perhaps for $$, perhaps to burnish their resume. Close to 100% of the intgrity issues were turned up by GE and reported to the SEC, FTC or whoever. Then GE aided in the prosecution of said individuals.>

Miss the point? Were the "transgressions" committed by employers of GE? If yes, then the transgressions were committed by GE. Pass the buck anyway you wish, or anyway that Neutron Jack wishes to pass it, but it all comes out the same in the end. BTW, I'll agree that many of these issues were reported by whistleblowers in GE, but were they ever rewarded by GE for doing this? I'm guessing not.

Dismiss it or not but it's not just several renegades from GE who are the culprit here, but GE itself. Who repeatedly dumped toxic waste and chemicals? GE. Who has contaminated the Hudson and Housatonic Rivers? GE. Sold defective nuclear reactor parts on more than one occasion? GE. Contaminated soil and groundwater in more than one state? GE. Contaminated drinking water in Puerto Rico? GE. Polluted several Northeastern states with PCBs? GE. Etc., etc., etc.

I guess this is simply unfriendly media. But there it is.

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Post by RACastanet »

GE. Polluted several Northeastern states with PCBs? GE. Etc., etc., etc.


At the time GE was using PCBs they were considered a miracle chemical insulator. Customers and the government specified and demanded the stuff be used. Countless lives were saved by PCBs. A typical power transformer had hundreds to thousands of gallons of insulating oil in them. Before PCBs, a failure usually resulted in a huge explosion and fireball. With PCBs the failures were a non event.

GE did not invent the chemical. It was a Monsanto product I believe. But it became the industry standard. And, to date, no one has been able to link PCBs with cancer. It was pretty much all hype. GE became a polluter when the whiners managed to convince the EPA it was poisonous. I assure you it is not by my very presence!

Because it does not break down easily it does persist in the environment. That is the concern. But, nature has found a way as there are naturally occuring microbes that eat the stuff. Long term the best solution is to leave it alone.

The sites you mentioned were all places where PCBs were used. And there are more. There was no reason to fear the product until the red flags went up in the mid 70s. Before then, it was considered a harmless but life saving chemical. I personally have no fear of it. Gasoline is much more toxic and it gets spilled everey day.

What is a company to do? Treat everything as a hazard? Just not practical. Does your school check everyone for pedophelia tendencies on a regular basis? Probably not as it is not that big a problem. But, maybe they should. If one kid gets molested the whole school sysytem will be under fire.

As for my GE positions, trainer is a great understatement. I was primarily an engineer for very large projects. A small group of us also were asked to join staff level teams to help drive the cultural efforts and the changes within the company and at other major companies. This was high level activity that gave access to executive level personnel at GE and many other places. In fact, the idea was to have someone like me work in other businesses on problems as we would be neutral facilitators. I had no $$ incentive one way or another. GE is a big matrix of management teams and I was in one of them. And yes, officers of GE and other companies took direction from us. We were in great demand, and it was fun!

I can post my Six Sigma pedigree and my Change Facilitator credential if you like but unless you were in a big company in recent years it would just be paper to you. In GE and at companies seeking the methodology those credentials were gold!
but were they ever rewarded by GE for doing this? I'm guessing not.
Absolutely not. That was their job. And it was/is a very demanding one that few choose to accept.

As for your sources, just post them and I'll research them. With a company that is 125 years old you can find a lot to like or not to like. I can only speak of the last 30 years or so personally.

Standing by.

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Run for office anyone?

Post by mikemurphy »

Wow Rich,

Discounting the GE apologist in you, you ought to run for office. Don't waste your time in the classroom, because you can double-talk with the best of them. :-)

BTW, my school system does a CORI check on all of their employees, but I can't speak for every school system in Mass., but I'm guessing it's pretty much the same. How about in VA?

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Post by RACastanet »

How about in VA?
Yep, prints to the state police and the FBI as well as the local check.

Discounting the GE apologist in you, you ought to run for office. Don't waste your time in the classroom, because you can double-talk with the best of them.
Let me remind you Mike that you made the blanket statement about the corrupt businesses in the US. Then you went on with your unsubstantiated claims. I am still waiting for your references and documentation. So far you score zero points.

I feel sorry for people like you that live in such a bad country, suffering from the corruption in the business world and suspicious of the military-industrial complex. Fortunately I live in the land of the free and home of the brave. A country where anyone who really wants to make the effort can be successful and prosperous.

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Post by mikemurphy »

Rich,

Looks like we're tied then (zero to zero). Remember what the initial gist of my comment was about? Still haven't answered that yet. Oh, well. I guess us northern liberals are all the same, huh? :-)

<I feel sorry for people like you that live in such a bad country, suffering from the corruption in the business world and suspicious of the military-industrial complex. Fortunately I live in the land of the free and home of the brave. A country where anyone who really wants to make the effort can be successful and prosperous.>

Gosh, I hope I get a chance to move to Utopia too. 300 million people in this country, and I found the person who got it all figured out for everyone. This is a great country. (sarcasm here!!!)

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Panther
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Joined: Wed May 17, 2000 6:01 am
Location: Massachusetts

Post by Panther »

PLEASE keep the snide comments to yourselves! Debating is fine. Stating opinion is fine. Resorting to derogatory/inflammatory comments is not!

One of the things I've tried to strongly encourage and suggest in this forum is that folks should use valid sources, cites and statistics when making their point and debating their position. I've stated (I'm pretty sure there's even something to this effect in the rules) that while folks can make statements based on their personal feelings or experiences they should make every attempt to backup those opinions with cites of fact.

I am not posting this to squash any debate, but to reiterate those points for debating your opinions here.

I am certain that reliable, unbiased sources and cites can be researched and presented for any valid position or opinion. (I'm pretty sure that is also somewhere in the rules... or something to that effect...)

Besides, a position or opinion carries much more weight when it is backed up by reliable, unbiased supporting information... and inversely, without any sources or cites whatsoever, or with sources and cites that are dubious at best, any position or opinion loses credibility. (Naturally...)

Sometimes merely stating "no offense" doesn't cut it when it is followed by "but" leading into an attacking statement. Again, please be considerate. I know that can be difficult when we are debating subjects, opinions, positions and beliefs that we are passionate about, but it is something that we should strive for with our friends here... even if we disagree with them sometime.

I appreciate those who are doing their best to provide those sources and cites for their position and those who are doing their best to remain civil in debates. Everyone can learn from those posters.

Now ask yourself:

A) Have I provided unbiased, reliable, valid sources and cites to backup my opinions and positions?

If not, doing some research may be your next step.

B) Have I been snide, disrespectful, or personally insulting/inaccurate with my comments to those debating the opposite point of view?

If not, then perhaps tempering your comments is in order.

There is nothing that prevents folks from posting their opinions on a topic without any sources or cites for why they feel that way and there is nothing to stop anyone from pointing out flaws in the logic, position, information or debating tactics of someone else. HOWEVER, just to make it clear, do not get upset with me or complain to me if you fail to backup your side of the debate and/or make a snide (etc.) comment to the person with the opposite opinion and I decide to take a step back and turn that person (who has given sources and cites to backup their position and tried to remain relatively civil) loose on you to reply in an equally snide or disrespectful manner.

I have my own line that I get upset when people cross. If the disrespect, accusations, insinuations, or nastiness goes too far, you'll know if you've crossed my line. I try (not always successfully, I DO have a life afterall) to jump in and say something when things cross the line. And if things go too far, I have no qualms about asking people to find someplace else to post besides this forum... But I don't like to do that. There are a lot of really good people here with a very diverse set of opinions. So this is one of those times when I'm putting this out there before things get any closer to my line. Some of these comments are pushing my line right to the edge. In fact, some comments are downright bending my line and I really don't appreciate it! GOT IT?

Think about it...

Be good to each other.
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