Dewey, Chetham, and Howe at it again

This is Dave Young's Forum.
Can you really bridge the gap between reality and training? Between traditional karate and real world encounters? Absolutely, we will address in this forum why this transition is necessary and critical for survival, and provide suggestions on how to do this correctly. So come in and feel welcomed, but leave your egos at the door!
Gene DeMambro
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Post by Gene DeMambro »

No, nothing quick about the bucks they make.
This is why I, generally, don’t say too many bad things about them. I just wish they acted more responsibly in certain areas.
Celebrex was a God send for me. I doubt that I would have continued martial arts and my Marine Corps relationship without it. I am aware of the risks associated with it and accept them.
And we are glad you are a success story. Your doctor and your pharmacist did their jobs when explaining to you about the risks of Celebrex.

But what Bill wants, Rich, is a society where a drug company can make any drug they want and not tell anyone about its negatives. He wants doctors to prescribe without counseling their patients. This is a violation of our right to informed consent and our birthright to self-determination. Then when people start getting maimed or die as result of (sometime avoidable and manageable) side effects, he wants them to get off….scott free.
Attorneys on the other hand create no wealth... they merely redistribute it. The net impact on the economy is negative.
Attorney’s protect the rights of their clients. Don’t like it? Then don’t violate someone’s civil rights (like Merck did) and there would be no problem.

Gene
Gene DeMambro
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Post by Gene DeMambro »

Does anybody remember when a drunk did an auger job with his Cessna and the lawyer filed against everybody including the company that made the bolts on the plane. That was really a high point for the law industry.
Yes, I remember it vividly. And what was the outcome of that case, Mike?

gene
Gene DeMambro
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Post by Gene DeMambro »

Meanwhile, who is sueing Bayer because they have stomach bleeding from taking aspirin, or died from a hemmoragic stroke from the same? Or lost their kidney from taking a lifetime of aspirin? Nobody.
Warnings about aspirin are printed prominently on every bottle. Not so with Vioxx. Merck fought like hell to get cardiac warnings out of the product info.
And it cost NASA in Hampton, VA the honor of being mission control for the space program. That's politics!
Yes, but Maryland got the Goddard Space Flight Center! Named after Worcester’s own native son!

Gene
Last edited by Gene DeMambro on Thu Aug 25, 2005 4:11 am, edited 1 time in total.
Mark Weitz
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Post by Mark Weitz »

Bill, you said the heart attack causing death that was referred to in this litigation had nothing to do with Viox.

Yet,
a top company scientist, Alise Reicin, wrote that "the possibility of increased CV [cardiovascular] events is of great concern."
Clearly, this scientist who WORKED FOR the defendant, felt the science shows an increased risk of CV envets "of great concern".

Also, what evidence are you using to state unequivocally that VIOX had nothing to do with causing a fatal attack?

Mark
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Bill Glasheen
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Post by Bill Glasheen »

Gene wrote:
Bill wrote: And herein lays one of the major problems - people equating jury verdicts with the truth.
And the truth is what, exactly?
The truth on scientific evidence of causality isn't found in jury trials, nor can it be found from lawyers looking for money from deep pockets.
Gene wrote:
Bill wrote: Surely you believe in justice, right Gene? There was no causation - period.
So you say…..
I would say as a former research cardiologists specializing in creating heart attacks in the lab, as well as a health services researcher investigating the insurance claims of millions of people at a time that I have a heck of a lot more expertise on this than either a lay jury or you, Gene. Given my research background and my publications, I would easily qualify as an expert witness on the subject.
Gene wrote: remember the 7th Amendment to that annoying, pesky,little document called the “US Constitution”? Here it is, just in case you forgot:
US Constitution wrote: In suits at common law, where the value in controversy shall exceed twenty dollars, the right of trial by jury shall be preserved, and no fact tried by a jury, shall be otherwise reexamined in any court of the United States, than according to the rules of the common law.
Do a little research, Bill, and find out how much your hero Thomas Jefferson had it drafting this piece of civil right.

Nowhere in that Amendment, Gene, does it specify that there should be no consequences for excessive litigation, or filing a suit where the defendent is found not guilty either now or in the future. And nowhere does it say that punitive damages are required, or cannot be limited.

Since you want to invoke Mr. Jefferson, let me share some of his own views.

On the protection of personal propety...
A wise and frugal government, which shall leave men free to regulate their own pursuits of industry and improvement, and shall not take from the mouth of labor and bread it has earned - this is the sum of good government.
On his feelings about lawyers...
If the present Congress errs in too much talking, how can it be otherwise in a body to which the people send one hundred and fifty lawyers, whose trade it is to question everything, yield nothing, and talk by the hour?
And here's a Jefferson view on personal responsibility.
Responsibility is a tremendous engine in a free government.
And while we're quoting on personal responsibility, let's throw in one from Mr. John Dewey. This libertarian view is one that Mr. Jefferson most definitely would have supported.
Any doctrine that weakens personal responsibility for judgment and for action helps create the attitudes that welcome and support the totalitarian state.
Amen!
Gene wrote:
Bill wrote: Did you know, Gene, that the scumbag lawyer John Edwards did not carry either his state of birth of South Carolina, or the state he represented of North Carolina in the presidential election? Ever wonder how that could have happened? The truth shall set you free.
Yes, I knew that, Bill. And the same rednecks who voted for Bush/Cheney in Texas also sat on the Vioxx jury. Can’t have it both ways, Bill.
First, I'm sure our fellow Texans online would have a thing or two to say about you referring to them as rednecks. Sorry we can't all be cultured and right-thinking as you are. :roll:

Second, this does not follow. Citizens cannot choose to be on a jury, whereas they can choose to vote for those whom they wish to represent them.

Furthermore, we are entitled to a jury of our peers. For this type of case, it makes sense for peers to be those who understand medicine, the scientific method, and modern pharmacology. Here is clearly a case where binding arbitration by a panel of industry peers would make much more sense.
Gene wrote: Meck screwed up big, and got burned.

Sure, Gene. That's what John Edwards would tell a jury while pointing to some poor cerebral palsy baby who needed a lifetime of care. Obviously the obstetrician screwed up, right? After all, we have a horribly sick baby here, and that is a tragedy that SOMEBODY must pay for. And we all know how much money those doctors make.

Nice try...
Gene wrote: You want a societyt where people are harmed all the time with impunity.
Get real, Gene. You've lost me and everyone else right here.

There's no discussion once you take this leap from reality. This statement says more about you than it does about me.

- Bill
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Bill Glasheen
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Post by Bill Glasheen »

Mark wrote: Clearly, this scientist who WORKED FOR the defendant, felt the science shows an increased risk of CV envets "of great concern".

Also, what evidence are you using to state unequivocally that VIOX had nothing to do with causing a fatal attack?

Good observation, and good question.

I cannot say anything with 100% certainty except that I will eventually die and I will be taxed.

I can say with reasonable certainty that one out of three people who are born on this earth will die of a heart attack. I can also say that about the same proportion of people who take Vioxx will die of a heart attack. The incremental increase in risk of heart attack for taking a COX II inhibitor is minimal compared to the overall risk of the same. The threshold of guilt in even a civil case here is not met.

Furthermore, this was a particularly unusual cardiac event, and no research that I know of has proven that Vioxx causes that type of event.

The problem we have here is that it took millions and millions of doses of Cox II inhibitors to begin to see this barely measureable increase in risk. The research scientist raised the possibility, but he himself could not prove it. It was however his job to state it at the time, and no jury should punish Merck for allowing its workers to speak their mind - however damning their statements.

It took time in the market to show the increased risk. No animal studies could have found this.

Did you know, in fact, that they JUST NOW found out that long-term use of acetaminophen can raise your blood pressure? Do you know how many years that Tylenol was out before enough data was collected to see that?

Every single analgesic has side effects. Every single one. Every single one of those side effects can kill you. And almost all of those side effects are symptoms and conditions that can occur without the presence of the analgesic, and can be driven by multiple causes. And few of these could have been found without millions of prescriptions being given over time. And unless we make information gathering, information sharing, and public debate a litigation-free zone, we're not likely to get the kind of information we need when we need it.

Medicine is always a cost/benefit proposition. It's important we not pollute the information gathering process with punitive actions.

My mom died of a very unusual condition that possibly was caused from a lifetime of taking an analgesic (aspirin). She had a lifetime of rheumatoid arthritis. It was so bad that she had no wrists or ankles to speak of. Because of aspirin, she was able to speed-walk every day. That speed-walking probably kept her from getting heavy, which kept her from getting myriad conditions which could have led to a heart attack. She eventually died of something else - something quite unusual. But that death was far later and far less horrible (pain and suffering over time) than the death she would have had if she had lived a sedentary life with pain.

So... Did the aspirin cause her death? Some would say that. But I would say that it extended her life, and increased her quality-adjusted life years.

- Bill
Mark Weitz
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Post by Mark Weitz »

Bill said,
The incremental increase in risk of heart attack for taking a COX II inhibitor is minimal compared to the overall risk of the same. The threshold of guilt in even a civil case here is not met.
You may be right. There is much here that I'm a bit out of my league concerning US jurisprudence as the system of litigation and the pay-outs, particularly punitive damages, is different than in Canada.

Yet this company was found guilty by a jury and the system is working, though for whom is damn good question. And will these payouts be at the level suggested in the press? I've heard that often you'll see a sentence imposing penalties in 100s of millions but the actual payouts are often much smaller.

One thing is for sure in this kind of case, including the several class-action lawsuits against Glaxo Smith Kline (GSK) - Big Pharma has to do a much better job of releasing information about drug trials and more stringent criteria from both the FDA and Health Canada is needed requiring pharmaceutical companies to release health risks of it's drugs. There should also be tighter regulations concerning off-label use. For years there has been off-label prescribing of SSRIs to children despite the fact that these drugs were found to not have a clinically significant impact on childhood depression and pose a significantly higher risk of developing suicidal ideation, impulsive harmful acts (including to self) and suicide among adolescents and children. Yet the entire medical/legal system allowed this to continue until there were too many deaths and attempted suicides to ignore. Now Britain has officially banned these meds for children and in the US there are, according to Canada's press, black box labels with warnings about these risks and the same is now occuring in Canada.

Another issue is the quality of research and research bias as many studies drug companies rely on studies from company schills, private research enterprises who are hired and occasionally asked to massage data. Also, some drugs are allowed to come to market with only 2 studies showing clinically significant impact while there may be 10 studies showing the drug doesn't much than make expensive urine.

So maybe Merck is not guilty, and maybe they are, but I'm comfortable with any process that makes these companies more honest about the potential risks of their products. Otherwise informed consent isn't going to mean much.

Mark
Gene DeMambro
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Post by Gene DeMambro »

So maybe Merck is not guilty, and maybe they are, but I'm comfortable with any process that makes these companies more honest about the potential risks of their products. Otherwise informed consent isn't going to mean much.
Exactly.

Gene
Last edited by Gene DeMambro on Thu Aug 25, 2005 4:17 am, edited 2 times in total.
Gene DeMambro
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Post by Gene DeMambro »

Sorry, Bill. I think you've strayed too far from the pack on this one.

Gene
IJ
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Post by IJ »

"Moron doctors who continue to refuse to follow clinical, evidence-based guidelines when diagnosing and treating when the healthcare system orders tests you don't really need (a.k.a. defensive medicine)."

The nice thing about moron doctors, Gene, is that they're far more often well intentioned than the moron lawyers. The moron doctors are usually doing what they think is right and the moron lawyers are running ads like this one i just saw: "DUI? BAL 200? 250? 300? Call our experts: success at every level!" You should read the recent piece in ACP journal club on how older physician's failure to keep up to date does NOT translate into worse outcomes; authors implied a development of expertise that allowed them to see when to deviate from guidelines with individuals. Let's talk about aldactone and CHF if you'd like an example.

"Defensive medicine? What a laugh! Doctors who aren’t up to speed is more like it."

And how the F would you know Gene? I'll calling BS on you. Here's a good one: fetal monitoring is used EVERYWHERE and if the OB's didn't use it and something bad happened you would be right there with a bat with nails in it to punish them. Problem: at least as of my most recent brush with OB, there's NO data it helps and it may encourage more C sections.

"I blame doctors of old who ordered useless tests of questionable utility and prescribed the newer and more expensive drugs (and therefore better) and making payors pay so much."

I'm one of the new doctors and I do my best to study the facts and provide optimal care. BUT, medical knowledge is increasing exponentially. In hospital medicine (a new, largely evidence based field) we often say "every system produces exactly the result it was designed for," meaning that a junky computer system that doesn't prompt doctors to review allergies and dose medications by the kidney function or to consider prophylactic heparin and whatever else inevitably has worse outcomes than a more useful system that helps us avoid errors. Your culture of blame and punish an individual, who may have been at the top of his or her class, and the sweetest soul on earth, is not going to make that person more expert or sweeter, its going to sour them on their practice, ruin prices, generate distrust, and harm everyone but the lawyersnake. This is not just an opinion: the evidence based medicine you suggest, for example, has showm (in the new england journal no less) that top physicians at the brigham and womens, one of our most respected hospitals, need reminders to employ DVT prophylaxis from their computers or they just make human errors more often. Do you really think that punishing these overachievers is going to help their patients?? Why do you view everything as a battle, an argument, and a fight--that is, like a lawyer?

"I’ll just sue so the pants off my physician who refuses to do risky treatments that might save your life. She should get out of medicine if she’s so gun shy."

Is this a joke, are you clueless, or are you being mean? I've met many of these physicians, those who totally changed their practice due to the litigious atmosphere of modern medicine. And I doubt you have.

Bill, that one in three heart attacks--don't tell it to the third world :) And I'm sad to say, that if merck had been forthcoming on the risks of their drugs, they would not have been dinged like this. They failed to prevent injuries and deaths due to their drugs, for profit. For the shareholders you're worried about, in fact. Lemme dig up some examples.... but as i said before, they are responsible for an increment of heart attacks. Across a nation of 260 million that's a big deal! In any lawsuit where a patient taking vioxx whose heart attack risk rse, say, 2%, merck is to blame for 2/102nds of that death. That's the fraction of lost wages they should pay, too....
--Ian
IJ
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Post by IJ »

"Then don’t violate someone’s civil rights (like Merck did) and there would be no problem."

Had to chuckle at this one too. NO ONE has ever lost a lot of time or $ to a lawyer who was just out to harrass them or make a buck... haha... c'mon :roll:
--Ian
chewy
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good discussion...

Post by chewy »

Good discussion all around, emotions and all (and I understand this can be an emotional topic). Once again, all sides have a point, and the truth (and eventual comprimise solutions) are somewhere in the middle. I know my view of the world tends to be overly cyncial for many. My health and my family's health have benefitted from modern medicine as well. We have also had our share of shafts by modern medicine and goods/bads with lawyers.

So what can we do about this to make all parties (doctors, patients, drug companies, lawers, politician, etc.) happy? Banning all lawsuits is not the answer nor is, IMHO, banning "excessive" litigation (who gets to determine what is "excessive"?). Patients and doctors caught in the middle of all this need to realize that neither lawers or drug companies are in this soley for our benefit; this is simply not possible when billions of $$$ are involved.

I like the idea of suit caps, as long as they are fair to individuals who are/were truly injured (physically, mentally, and financially) by the unjust actions of others. To this end I think their should be a fair MINIMUM damage amount as well as a MAXIMUM. Punitive damages should go into a pool to help pay others who many have been injured as well and make it a one-time hit per unjust incident, not per trial. Further, cap lawer's takes on class-action lawsuits to something like 5-10% of damages. One more thing I've always wanted to see in our law-suit happy society: the loser of a law suit should have to pay the legal fees for BOTH sides (this includes the law firm that lost the case).

This is just addressing the lawer half of the argument. Bill and IJ are clearly much more in tune with the medical issues involved (a lot of that drug discussion was good, but over my head). What can we do to prevent drug companies from abusing "the system" for lack of a better term? What can be done to force drug companies from acting irresposibly? Where are the loop-holes in current legislation/regulation?


Ideas?


cheers,

chewy
IJ
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Post by IJ »

"When the CLASS and VIGOR trials were started, the cardiovascular adverse events were not foreseen. However, when these clinical trials showed an increased risk of myocardial infarction, rather than consider this finding a major danger signal, the manufacturers designed trials to show efficacy for other indications and enhanced the cardiovascular safety monitoring in these subsequent trials. It is a sobering thought that although the number of deaths and cardiovascular events attributable to COX-2 inhibitors remains in dispute, had trials designed to test the question of cardiovascular toxicity directly been launched in 1999 and executed with urgency, substantial morbidity and perhaps a substantial number of deaths could have been prevented. As we apply new science to develop new medicines, we must not forget that our first job is to do no harm."

--Drazen, NEJM Volume 352:1131-1132 March 17, 2005 Number 11

By the time of rofecoxib's withdrawal from the market in September 2004, after a placebo-controlled study confirmed its cardiovascular risk, more than 100 million prescriptions had been filled in the United States. Tens of millions of these prescriptions were written for persons who had a low or very low risk of gastrointestinal problems. (hence, these prescriptions were written because of clever advertising not a true indication, as typical nsaids work as well as cox-2s in those who didn't need the lower GI risk from the class --ij) ... The pharmaceutical industry spends more than $5.5 billion to promote drugs to doctors each year — more than what all U.S. medical schools spend to educate medical students. Major drug companies employ about 90,000 sales representatives — one for every 4.7 doctors in the United States, according to the American Medical Association... May 5 hearing of the Government Reform Committee focused on Merck, the manufacturer of Vioxx, which has an excellent reputation within the drug industry and supports many products, such as vaccines, that are medically essential but not very profitable. The company funded VIGOR and appropriately sought to publish its results in a prestigious medical journal. In advance of the committee's hearing, Merck cooperated voluntarily with our request for information, providing more than 20,000 pages of internal company documents. Merck also voluntarily sent a senior executive to testify at the hearing and answer the committee's questions. Yet as we learned, even a company like Merck can direct its sales force to provide clinicians with a distorted picture of the relevant scientific evidence.

On February 7, 2001, the Arthritis Drugs Advisory Committee of the Food and Drug Administration (FDA) met to discuss the VIGOR study. At this meeting, Merck argued that the significant increase in the rate of myocardial infarction (which further analysis had determined to be a fivefold increase) was explained by a protective effect of naproxen, not by any inherent risk posed by its drug. After the FDA's medical reviewer and others expressed concern about this explanation, the advisory committee voted unanimously that physicians should be made aware of VIGOR's cardiovascular results.

The next day, Merck sent a bulletin to its rofecoxib sales force of more than 3000 representatives. The bulletin ordered, "DO NOT INITIATE DISCUSSIONS ON THE FDA ARTHRITIS ADVISORY COMMITTEE . . . OR THE RESULTS OF THE . . . VIGOR STUDY." It advised that if a physician inquired about VIGOR, the sales representative should indicate that the study showed a gastrointestinal benefit and then say, "I cannot discuss the study with you."

Merck further instructed its representatives to show those doctors who asked whether rofecoxib caused myocardial infarction a pamphlet called "The Cardiovascular Card." This pamphlet, prepared by Merck's marketing department, indicated that rofecoxib was associated with 1/8 the mortality from cardiovascular causes of that found with other antiinflammatory drugs.

The Cardiovascular Card provided a misleading picture of the evidence on rofecoxib. The card did not include any data from the VIGOR study. Instead, it presented a pooled analysis of preapproval studies, in most of which low doses of rofecoxib were used for a short time. None of these studies were designed to assess cardiovascular safety, and none included adjudication of cardiovascular events. In fact, FDA experts had publicly expressed "serious concerns" to the agency's advisory committee about using the preapproval studies as evidence of the drug's cardiovascular safety.4

Persistent physicians who sought additional information about the cardiovascular effects of rofecoxib were directed to send inquiries to the company's headquarters. Merck's response to these physicians highlighted the misleading information from the Cardiovascular Card.

Beyond these specific communications to physicians, our committee also heard evidence of a broad disparity between the evidence-based perspective provided by scientific journals and expert committees, on the one hand, and the sales pitch used by the company's field staff, on the other. Merck instructed its sales representatives, for example, to provide only certain approved study results to doctors. Approved scientific studies were defined as those that provide "solid evidence as to why [doctors] should prescribe Merck products for their appropriate patients." By contrast, those studies that raised safety questions about drugs were considered background studies. Distributing the results of a background study was "a clear violation of Company Policy."

Merck also trained its representatives to identify speakers for educational events who were "opinion leaders" who could provide "favorable" views of the company's products to other doctors. Underlining the promotional nature of these events, Merck instructed its sales representatives to track whether the physicians who attended them subsequently prescribed more Merck drugs.

In addition to providing selective evidence and biased presentations, Merck counseled its representatives to use an array of subliminal selling techniques to affect prescribing — potentially undermining the ability of physicians to choose drugs strictly on the basis of the risks, benefits, and costs for a particular patient. For example, in a training course on selling skills, Merck taught representatives to mimic the words and body language of doctors during sales calls. The curriculum explained that "mirroring is the matching of patterns, verbal and non-verbal, with the intention of helping you enter the customer's world. It is positioning yourself to match the person talking. It subconsciously raises his/her level of trust by building a bridge of similarity.

--Waxman, NEJM Volume 352:2576-2578 June 23, 2005 Number 25
Obtain the full text at www.content.nejm.org by searching "vioxx;" its free.

"In response to Drs. Kim and Reicin, I believe that many vital steps were not taken to evaluate the cardiovascular safety of rofecoxib properly. They assert that the clinical data for the initial FDA approval "did not suggest an adverse cardiovascular effect." In contrast, at the time of approval in May 1999, the FDA reviewer, Dr. Villalba, wrote, "The data seem to suggest thromboembolic events are more frequent in patients receiving rofecoxib than placebo."1 In 2000, along with the VIGOR trial,2 a second trial conducted by Merck, known as Study 090, also showed a significant excess of heart attacks and strokes among patients taking rofecoxib, as compared with controls (Table 1). 3 Together with the results of the VIGOR trial, there was indeed replication in an independent, randomized, controlled trial of an excess of the cardinal cardiovascular end point of death, heart attack, and stroke. The excess of these events occurred within six weeks in Study 090, and the event curves were divergent by 30 days in the VIGOR trial. Not only was Study 090 never published and available solely through a subsequent FDA memorandum,3 but the data presented in the VIGOR article also suffered from errors of omission, along with erroneous information and lack of completeness.2 In Table 1, the data from the FDA report3 for VIGOR are presented. In the VIGOR article, the actual deaths were not reported, but it is stated in the article in three places that the overall mortality rate was similar in the two groups. The heart-attack rate for rofecoxib was erroneous. More than half of the thrombotic events are not presented in the VIGOR article but appear in the FDA report.3

Unfortunately, although my colleagues and I called for dedicated cardiovascular trials in 2001,4 Merck never initiated one and maintains that its trials conducted to seek new medical indications were determining cardiovascular risk. There was ample evidence that COX-2 inhibitors improve endothelial function and lower inflammatory proteins, such as C-reactive protein,5 justifying the benefit-and-risk assessment of these drugs directly in patients with established cardiovascular disease.

We indeed acknowledged that naproxen may have a cardioprotective effect,5 but the magnitude of the effect would be unlikely to exceed that of aspirin, at a 25 percent reduction of heart attacks. Instead, in the VIGOR trial, there was a 500 percent increase in heart attacks. This makes any "naproxen hypothesis" of cardioprotection mathematically indefensible.

Drs. Villalba and Witter are incorrect in suggesting that the FDA cannot influence post-marketing clinical trials that a sponsor performs. Their claim that the "50 percent decreased risk of gastroduodenal perforations" outweighed the cardiovascular risk in the VIGOR trial is not substantiated by the data. There were no differences in the rate of perforation (0.1 percent in both the rofecoxib and naproxen groups).2 It is hard to imagine that the small protection from gastric or duodenal ulcers in the VIGOR trial is an acceptable trade-off as compared with twice the incidence of death, heart attacks, and strokes. Indeed, Dr. Targum, the FDA reviewer of the VIGOR, wrote in her report, in reference to the cardiovascular findings, "This analysis could lead one to conclude that naproxen, with a 51 percent reduction compared to rofecoxib, would be the preferred drug."3 It took 14 months after the expert FDA panel convened, from February 2001 to April 2002, to change minimally the cardiovascular safety information for rofecoxib in the package insert. After their cumulative meta-analysis, Juni et al. correctly stated, "Our findings indicate that rofecoxib should have been withdrawn several years earlier."

Topol, NEJM Volume 351:2875-2878 December 30, 2004 Number 27
(reply to letters)

"When Merck announced the voluntary withdrawal of its acute-pain medication, rofecoxib (Vioxx), on September 30, 2004, its stock price collapsed, wiping out more than a quarter of the company's market value in a single day. A second blow came on November 1, when an article in the Wall Street Journal suggested that Merck had known about elevated risks of heart attack and stroke for years and had tried to intimidate scientists who questioned the safety of rofecoxib. On that day, Merck's stock price fell by another 10 percent. The recall came as a shock not only to patients and their physicians; the debacle was also terrible news for those awaiting new medical therapies, because the dramatic financial consequences of withdrawing rofecoxib might well hamper the ability of a major pharmaceutical company to invest in new drugs that could help patients in the future"

--Oberholzer-Gee. NEJM Volume 351:2147-2149 November 18, 2004 Number 21, speaking to the disincentives to do the safest thing in a punitive stock market...
--Ian
Valkenar
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Re: good discussion...

Post by Valkenar »

chewy wrote: the loser of a law suit should have to pay the legal fees for BOTH sides (this includes the law firm that lost the case).
The problem with this scenario is that it means an individual (no matter how legitimate his case) would have to be insane to take on a major corporation. If a lost case resulted in financial ruin, who would ever take that risk?

Another random question: It's all well and good to take the view that in a perfect world people wouldn't seek to lay blame and everyone would just work together to fix mistakes. But without lawsuits and punitive damage, what is there to incentivize companies to do what's right? Isn't there a clear history of corporations doing a cost-benefit analyis of fixing safety concerns vs. paying off people hurt by flawed products? If the price of paying off hurt people goes down, wouldn't that just make it more profitable for companies to ignore, downplay or conceal problems?

Assuming that this does matter, what can be done about it other than lawsuits? What are the options?
Gene DeMambro
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Post by Gene DeMambro »

Why do you view everything as a battle, an argument, and a fight--that is, like a lawyer?
If wishing made it so....
Let's talk about aldactone and CHF if you'd like an example
Yes. Please do.

Gene
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