Misandry

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Postby Akil Todd Harvey » Wed Sep 07, 2005 3:51 pm

Thanks To All for your Patience and Understanding

emotions do get the better of us (all of us) sometimes, men included....we too have hormones, although there are some that want to outlaw the male version of em.......

there are so many issues and not enought time to get to all of them......my own impatience has shown through.......thanks to those of you who did take not this personally (not that I could at this point)......these are important issues......

I have always strongly supported women and women's issues and for some naive reason thoguht they would do the same with men's issues......now that I know that that is not true, I have woken up........

there is not one thing that has put me in a tizzy, folks, it is many many things, decades plus........and finally waking up.........

I have many many more articles and they arent all about the same subject.....they are each about a different part of a very important subject........gender issues.......demostic violence, and so much more

www.backlash.com/book/domv.html

In another article titled "Unsafe at Home," Seattle Post-Intelligencer reporter Tina Kelley quoted Carolyne Ford, program director at a Seattle shelter for abused women and their children, as saying "People think batterers are out of control, but that's not true. Generally, all they beat are their spouses, girlfriends or partners." Kelley's article made no mention of abusive women, and the accompanying chart indicated all batterers are male. Where did this come from? It was "just something I had a feel for," Kelley said. The problem is "90 percent male, 10 percent female."

How could a major metropolitan newspaper report a statistical distribution based on a reporter's feelings?


One of the most interesting things about science and social science research is that what you expect to find is often what you find (if you keep a closed mind). If you dare to open your mind, sometimes you find that reality isnt how you percieved it........

ATH
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Postby cxt » Wed Sep 07, 2005 4:32 pm

Gene

Thats kinda why I mentioned it.

In most States, if a women wishs to have an abortion, they can have one.

I am pro-choice, so I have absolutly NO problem with that.

But also in most States, the choice to be a parent is NOT in my hands.
If I sleep with a women and we get pregent--then she has the legal right not to have the baby.
I do not have the right to go to court (except under the most unusual circumstances) and say "I am just not ready to be a parent, sign a paper and walk away.

In most States I am financially responsible for that child until age 18.
Weither I wish to be or not.

Men have been hit with back child-support payments for children that they did not even know about.
In CA, men that can prove thu DNA testing that they are NOT the father of the child in question have been forced to pay child support.

The court generally rules in the best interest of the child.
Which they should--but that leaves the door open for what I consider to be an unfair situation.

A women has options, the man in the situation has almost none.
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Postby Dana Sheets » Thu Sep 08, 2005 12:25 pm

I have always strongly supported women and women's issues and for some naive reason thoguht they would do the same with men's issues......now that I know that that is not true, I have woken up........


...sigh...so from a few threads of ranting that aren't even framed well for debate of specific ideas you leap to the categorical perspective that all women or even just the women on this forum have zero support for men's issues. Somehow I have trouble understanding how you came to this conclusion.

Do you remember what I said about a pendulum Akil? It hung over on the side of men and their rights for centuries and many would say that it is still not in the center. Equailty or something even close to equality for men and women doesn't yet exist in this world in many many places.

With that being said I agree that men's issues and women's issues are a concern for all of us because they are soceity's issues. You are obviously an informed and tireless advocate - but consider advocating with less incrimination - particularly on these forums. Otherwise instead of building support for good ideas you'll get people recoiling from the fire and brimstone.
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Postby IJ » Fri Sep 09, 2005 4:58 am

Cxt, the options vary for a woman because of the unique situation she finds herself in. Of course men can't abort... they're not pregnant. Facts of life: with the ability come the upsides, the downsides, and more responsibility. The key, first, and primary choice a man has is to not get a woman pregnant, ever. Takes more than a kiss.
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Postby cxt » Fri Sep 09, 2005 3:37 pm

IJ

But what I am getting at is "why not?"

If a women, for whatever reason, is legally allowed to decide not to be a parent.

Then why should a man be held to a different standard?

We may not be giving birth, but as far as the courts are concerned we are responsible.

Simply a matter of equal treatment---I do not question a women right to chose, as far as I am concernd it should be absolute.

I am just suggesting that in fairness, the choice to be or not be a parent should not be a question of gender--it should be a question of equal rights.

As you say, "takes more than a kiss", and it does--it takes TWO people--but only ONE of which has the legal right to decide that they do not wish to a parent.
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Postby IJ » Sat Sep 10, 2005 1:53 am

Easy. A woman can have an abortion because the fetus is in her body and to enter someone else's body, or do medicine or surgery on them, you need consent. A man cannot force a woman to kill her child or to undergo medical or surgical care. When men can get pregnant, they can have abortions.

Equal will not be exactly the same when women have a uterus and men do not. Why would it be?
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Postby Akil Todd Harvey » Sat Nov 26, 2005 4:29 pm

Mis / an / dry (mis'-an-dree) n. hatred of men. 1: the attribution of negative qualities to the entire male gender.2: the claim that masculinity is the source of such human vices such as domination, violence, oppression, and racism. 3: a sexist assumption that (a) male genes, hormones, and physiology, or (b) male cultural nurturing produces war, rape, and physical abuse. 4: the assignment of blame solely to men for humanity's historic evils without including women's responsibility or giving men credit for civilizations achievements. 5: the assumption that any male person is probably dominating, oppressive, violent, sexually abusive, and spiritually immature.


The above is Patrick Arnold's definition of Misandry as found in a book by
Zubaty, Rich ("What Men Know That Women Don't)...

Feel free to deny those of you who are sleep walking through life (you've been taught to live that way so don’t feel bad if you do).

Waking up is hard to do and you should expect to be attacked if you dare to wake up in any way, shape or form..........Anyone who dares to question today’s feminist paradigms might as well expect death threats......cuz they are that fanatical in their efforts to demonize men (I would know, I used to be one of their fiercest lapdogs......Now, I am one of its fiercest critics)....
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Postby IJ » Mon Nov 28, 2005 8:12 pm

ATH, you just posted something on disconnecting the panic button. Can you take a step back and look at the WHOLE USA and see that its not some big pogrom out to get men?

"3: a sexist assumption that (a) male genes, hormones, and physiology, or (b) male cultural nurturing produces war, rape, and physical abuse."

What you gave us is just a definition and doesn't speak to relevance or prevalence, BUT, can't you see that this guy's concerns about #3 are a bit paranoid? I mean, AREN'T men responsible for most of the violence in the world today? Who's running the militaries? Who's staffing them? Who has more power in the home in most cultures? Who's president, PM, senator, congressman, pope, dalai lama, iman? Things are changing but MORE men have power and far more men have HAD power. Something is happening there and it is, by definition, either:

1) Inherited; Nature
2) Learned; Nuture

And that is what definition in 3 is saying, albeit in caricature. There are extremists but they're not making things up out of thin air. Anyway...

We all have our issues and themes, and yours are largely: muslim issues and gender issues (specifically male advocacy). Have you commented (and can you direct me to same) or would you be willing to comment on the generally subordinate role of women in islamic societies? Voting, office, driving, divorce, education, medical care, personal freedoms in dress, etc, are generally harder for women or at least each of these things are in a very islamic way in the middleeast. We are also seeing female suicide bombers as a NEW phenomenon and a predominance of men in violent extremist movements in the islamic world. I know that women may suffer "honor killings" even by their own family if disgraced (violate sexual norms, or are even just raped) and I've yet to hear of a man suffering the same.

I realize that there are perhaps neutral and benignly "cultural" differences in roles in islamic cultures (eg, women behind men at mosque not because of inferiority but so men are not distracted by their rear ends,* at least according to a muslim interviewed for for that "supersize me" spinoff TV show in which a christian spent a month living with a devout muslim family in michigan), but do you just dismiss the remainder of these facts?

* kind of suggests that men have some problem with "genes, hormones, and physiology" or "cultural nuturing" that makes them more wantonly sexual and distractible than women, doesn't it?
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Postby Panther » Tue Nov 29, 2005 3:04 am

IJ wrote:Easy. A woman can have an abortion because the fetus is in her body and to enter someone else's body, or do medicine or surgery on them, you need consent. A man cannot force a woman to kill her child or to undergo medical or surgical care.


<Devil's Advocate mode = = on>

It seems that one could reasonably argue that the woman gave consent for the man to enter her body and that is what started created the... ummmm... issue in contention in the first place! With that in mind, why shouldn't that prior consent be available to the potental father? Not that he should be able to force the woman to have a medical procedure which she does not desire, but rather that he could opt-out of any future obligations completely giving up any and all future parental rights in return. If the would-be mother can opt-out through a medical procedure, why not allow the would-be father to, at the very least, opt-out legally. If, at any point in the future, the disavowing sperm-donor decides to make an attempt at being a father to the child, then prior to that happening, said father should be required to pay all back child support payments with interest and penalties to the mother before resuming any role as "father". Since the mother has paid for the child and done all of the parenting without the father, there should be compensation paid if the father wish to enter the child's life at some later date. In addition, counseling should be required to help the child.

<Devil's Advocate mode = = off>
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Postby AAAhmed46 » Tue Nov 29, 2005 5:33 am

PANTHER: YOU ARE AN ADVOCATE OF THE DEVIL!!!!! DAMN YOU!!!! HELL WILL BE UPON YOU!!!!!! EVIL CURR!!!!
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Postby -Metablade- » Tue Nov 29, 2005 7:30 am

Hmmmm....

Devel::Symdump

$object->name('Panther is Beelzebubs Lawyer');
print $object->name, "\n";


Nope.
Nothing out of the ordinary here...
:lol:
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Postby Akil Todd Harvey » Tue Nov 29, 2005 4:23 pm

Ian,

I did not make up the definition of misandry by myself while i was locking my wife in a cage (sorry to disapoint)......and I did not make up the definition of misandry with a group of my muslim brothers (with women excluded as you would imagine), but rather got it from a book written in English bought off amazon.com, not from bahrain or pakistan

Interestingly, I have been told about misogyny since I was a kid (and I believe that misogyny not only extists, but that it is a bad thing and I have been an advocate against misogyny all my life)......

Equally interestingly, is the fact, that while we are all convinced that msiogyny exists, most of us will quicky deny that misandry exists, without daring to open our eyes for even a moment.......

Now, Ian, you want to blame all men or most of em or the vast majority of violence and yet the rise of viloence among women is significant (despite the fact that much if not all of women's violence goes unreported and/or unpunished (and most often excused and encouraged)......

I suppose Ian you are conveniently ignoring the fact that the world health organization did its little domestic abuse study recently and deliberately did not ask a single man if he had been beaten by his spouse or partner.....Interesting, Ian, they search for violence, but convinced that only men perpetrate, they look for no violence committed by women and as such, they find that women commit no violence, and then they conclude that women arent violent, look their is no proof......no shiite fool, you got your eyes closed, no wonder you cannot find female violence, you arent looking for any, you have convinced yourself it does not exist and then refuse to look for it.........lull yourself into sleep in this regard my friend.....

women may not be as successful at violnce as men, but that does not mena that it does not exist or that it should be excused and/or ignored......

you want to use reasearch to show how men are the most violent and women are not violent at all, do so, but make sure it is real research where they didnt just close their eyes and sauy, nope, women are perfectly perfect and they dont even have poop that stink
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Postby IJ » Tue Nov 29, 2005 11:39 pm

ATH: Can you answer the question?

I didn't say you used a muslim definition, and it hardly matters, nor did I accuse you of locking your wife anywhere, in fact I did not know your marital status. I didn't endorse a WHO study of any kind, and specifically didn't endorse a study that would only look at one angle of domestic violence. I didn't say misandry didn't exist or that any kind of prejudice can't be bidirectional; they usually are.

I'm just asking you if your zealous attack on misandry is perhaps overboard. No one is posting repeated vitriolic, hyperbole-rich run-on posts about misogyny, and as you said, no one doubts that it exists. Most would agree that concerning violence in intimate relationships, women suffer more. Yet I suspect that if someone wrote about male on female violence with the passion you write about this supposed epidemic of beaten and disempowered men, you would...how to put it... respond excitedly? Can't we just say both are bad and endorse thorough studies of all aspects of relationship violence?

Anyway, given that the sexism and sex-role induced suffering seems to be at its maximum in the more fundamental religions, especially islam, my question was:

"Have you commented (and can you direct me to same) or would you be willing to comment on the generally subordinate role of women in islamic societies?"

Basically I was wondering if, after apparently claiming that american sex roles are rotten to the core, you could cast an objective eye on islamic cultures. And, after apparently claiming that female violence is at some fever pitch, you could comment on the fact that female involvement in organized violence is almost exclusively a modern, and still a rare, phenomenon?

Want to complain about gender issues and violence... a male muslim has to acknowledge membership in two groups that have problems of their own, you know?

Devil Panther, when two adults have sex, they're responsible for the product; men, lacking access to abortion services, must either utilize a variety of birth control options or accept financial (at minimum) responsibility for the offspring. Women by anatomic whim, can employ birth control, abortion, or deal with their children. I don't think a man can undo his half in a birth just because he'd prefer a woman kill his child before it is born. If he feels that way, perhaps he ought not have sex with her, or get it in writing?

Regular Panther, I know your alter ego is fooling around :)
--Ian
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Postby AAAhmed46 » Wed Nov 30, 2005 7:07 am

Good god. Im surprised this discussion is getting as heated as it is.


Image
THIS THREAD IS GAY!


http://www2.b3ta.com/spidermanwillmakeyougay/
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Postby IJ » Thu Dec 01, 2005 2:42 am

Not yet AAAhmed. But I am doing my best.
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