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Postby Akil Todd Harvey » Fri Dec 02, 2005 8:31 pm

The hope…was that a patriarchal society would change into a liberal-democratic society in which both men and women could retain their individual entities. Instead, we have leap-frogged into the group society and decided that the favored group of the moment is the female. Now we are attempting to make female instincts, reactions and behavior normative for all members of society.

(Barbara Amiel, “Henpecked Men Carry feminist Torch,” Montreal Gazette, November 23 1996: B6)

You see it or you don’t....the messenger may not stand out as target however, for anyone’s amusement....there are traps in my posts, don’t fall for them.....the vast majority of my posts are about reconciliation and every once in a while I throw in the hook for the ideologues to harangue about. The glass is more than half full in my posts and if you wan to point out the bad, it lets me know something about you. If you tell me to “Get Help”, like my mother did (she wont speak to me), then I know that you have no intention of helping, you just want me to go away somewhere and change to some acceptable, impossible standard for a man to fit into. If you want to treat me like a square peg, then don’t try to force me into a round hole.
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The teaching of contempt for Men in Popular Culture

Postby Akil Todd Harvey » Fri Dec 02, 2005 8:32 pm

It will not do…to dismiss ideological feminism as members of a radical fringe group of no consequence in public life. To the extent that democracy is only as god as the moral fiber of its voters, that it can be maintained on the basis only of constant vigilance, and that all ideologies constitute inherent threats to democracy by denying value to specific groups of citizens, ideological feminists must be taken very seriously…The roots of misandry in popular culture can be found in the misandry of elite culture. Ideological feminists usually, though not always, academics…Just as the influence of feminist ideology was peaking in elite culture during the 1990’s, at any rate, so was the influence of misandry in popular culture. This was no coincidence. But precisely how has the former become so deeply embedded in the latter, so deeply that it is taken for granted? So deeply that for all intents and purposes, it is invisible?

(Spreading Misandry, The teaching of contempt for Men in Popular Culture, Paul Nathanson & Katherine K. Young, McGill Queen’s, Ithica, P. 233 )

If men are told over and over again that they are not only brutal sub-humans in general but also hostile to women in particular, they are likely to say, “So be it.” Whatever their own inclinations, they realize that even a negative identity is better than no identity at all. Thus when women think about misandry in popular culture, they should consider the danger of self-fulfilling prophecies. What goes around, according to the old saying, goes around. Or for those who prefer biblical allusions, whoever sows the wind shall reap the whirlwind.
That possibility is often denied by those who view misandry as a political weapon to fight misogyny. They argue that the immediate result might be polarization but the eventual result will be reconciliation. In other words, the ends justifies the means. But, if polarization can bring changes for the better, it can also bring about changes for the worse. How do we know that polarization will give rise to reconciliation? We do not.

(Spreading Misandry, The teaching of contempt for Men in Popular Culture, Paul Nathanson & Katherine K. Young, McGill Queen’s, Ithica, P. 249 )

Be Well and Be Good to each Other...
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Postby Akil Todd Harvey » Fri Dec 02, 2005 10:40 pm

Bad News: We are ALL part of the PROBLEM

Good News We are ALL part of the SOLUTION

We can tell as much from the sound of a person’s voice as from the words spoken. In a sense, we know each other because we make the same sounds, have the same organs, and because we fundamentally have the same body. For every 100 differences between any two of us, there are 10,000 similarities.

From: The Tonal; The Bejeweling of the Kingdom
A Poem of the 96 Spaces of the Human Subconsciousness Produced by Sound

Compiled by G.M. Harvey Edited by I.R. Harvey

The Tonal, also known as Voice Power Yoga, was translated loosely into English from Tibetan Chating by James Rudolph Murley. I am poresently retyping it to make it available via web/multimedia.
Last edited by Akil Todd Harvey on Fri Dec 02, 2005 10:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Akil Todd Harvey » Fri Dec 02, 2005 10:45 pm

B. Heart
The earth is alive and loves us all.
All that has weight within us belongs to her according to the laws of gravity.
She is the mother of the body, whose pleasure it is to nourish us.
To sense her magnetic force within us makes us feel beautiful.

To defend her makes us strong;
We breathe her breath;
We drink water from her veins;
We eat the flowers of her flesh.

Her children of the West have the karma and the blessing of the materialism.
We want something that occupies space and makes some kind of noise.
And our cities prove it!
This is neither good nor bad, but simply essential to the general welfare.

We, the people, unanimously chose space exploration over levitation;
The mythical vision had to wait for movies and television;
Psychic phenomena was limited to people without telephones;
Our sense of personal achievement came to be represented by the art of the deal
And the almighty dollar.

Thus, we are all the source of our own oppression and the oppression of others...

C. Encephalon (Brain)
When we disregard the earth in securing environment for ourselves,
Our consciousness is split by fear and hardships,
And our reality is divided between its hardest and most subtle dualities:
Our sense of self as a waking, moving entity,

And our sense of self as a sleeping, dreaming entity.
This is the split between conscious and subconscious
Between intelligence and instinct,
Between beliefs about past and future,

Between the shell of our musculature (commanded by the Brain) ,
And the rich sensations from our internal organs (via the Cerebellum).
Like a darkened ping pong ball, the ego rides
Atop the fountain of two forces split by fear.

To increase our ability to concentrate, we need only to
Discharge all attachment to fears of the future,
And let go of blaming ourselves or anyone else for our past.
The fountain of our spine will sparkle as the little ball turns

In order to forgive ourselves, we must first learn to forgive others...This is what I learned from my dad (the one whom my mom was quick to alienate)....
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Postby IJ » Fri Dec 02, 2005 10:56 pm

So I guess all those posts mean that your only answer to my question is silence? And a stream of post and clips positing that a couple off-the-wall misandrists in a culture with some off-the-wall misogynists is some kind of fire-maelstrom of impending cultural disaster, with castrated men following roles defined by womyn carrying whips and sharp tongues? One clip makes the case that this is VERY important because its an ideology and all ideologies are important/dangerous. Well, that puts it in line with the impending crisis caused by the ELF, PETA, NAMBLA, every apocalyptic cult and the communists, socialists and so on; we should all be in high alert all the time. It's a wonder our society struggles on with all these crises happening.

Or something like that.

ATH, I've spent the last couple weeks interacting with dozens of men and women at work and there just isn't any hostility, distrust, abuse, and whatnot. Problems exist but are infrequent and there is no massive feminist conspiracy. Nor do I see women taking over the presidency, corporate positions, and control of the military anytime soon. I suggest that you do some yogic breathing and have a nice date with your wife. Life is good.
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Postby Akil Todd Harvey » Sat Dec 03, 2005 4:34 pm

Women are not morally superior to men. Women are not always kind, caring, and sharing. Sometimes, they’re mean, conniving and manipulating. Psychological stereotyping has done a profound disservice to men by casting women as nurturing and men as aggressive. Female business barracudas and politicians are ruthless beyond belief to most men’s way of thinking. My kind, caring, sharing side is not my female side; it’s my kind, caring, sharing side! Sadly, due to our societal blindness to the fact that women are not morally superior to men, women get away with perpetrating far more than their fair share of tragedies and outrages. If a man hits a woman, we want to toss the bastard in jail. If a woman hits a man, we want to know what he said to piss her off. Women think “Fidelity” is city in Pennsylvania…Women know what other women are like. It’s us dopes who deny the moral sliminess of women.

Rich Zubaty, What men Know That Women Don’t, P. 500

95% of abuse allegations tendered during divorce are false.

To protect 5% of the children, we are destroying the most sacred bond there is between 95% of so-accused divorcing fathers and their kids.

The most frequent child batterers are women.

The most frequent victims are their two-year-old sons

The most unreported crime is not wife beating but husband beating.
Men have no rights in abortion. They cannot even adopt their own child should the wife/girlfriend opt to give it up for adoption.

The Supreme Court has ruled that sex discrimination law was enacted to protect women only.

ibid, P 512

I was taking universitry level women's studies classes as far back as 1984 and had indoctrination in feminism dating back to the late 1960's. I have read somwhere between five and ten books on men's issues as they relate to things like misogyny (which no one here would dispute its existence) and misandry (which some people are beginning to see is kept well hidden, but exists nonetheless, despite some people's desperate efforts to keep ptretending it doesn't exist).......

There are several books on misandry that I have been reading that I do not recommend because they are as full of blame and negativity (Vilar, Esther, The Manipulated male) as that of any feminist ideologue. Then there are others, like mr zubaty's book, that contains a lot of positive stuff and a lot of negativity........I would love to see Rich rewrite his book, as somethign along the lines of ...."What Few men and women know that most men and women do not know. to me, that would be more middle of the road.....but, I also know where rich's pain comes from (from having his son and daughter removed from his life by a careless system that destroys the very families it pretends to protect.......

By far the best book on Misandry is listed below

Spreading Misandry

The Teaching of Contempt for Men in Popular Culture

Paul Nathanson and Katherine K. Young

A probing inquiry into the pervasiveness of negative male stereotypes in popular culture.

Paul Nathanson and Katherine Young argue that men have routinely been portrayed as evil, inadequate, or as honorary women in popular culture since the 1990s. These stereotypes are profoundly disturbing, the authors argue, for they both reflect and create hatred and thus further fracture an already fractured society. In Spreading Misandry they show that creating a workable society in the twenty-first century requires us to rethink feminist and other assumptions about men.

The first in an eventual three part series, Spreading Misandry offers an impressive array of evidence from everyday life - case studies from movies, television programs, novels, comic strips, and even greeting cards - to identify a phenomenon that is just now being recognized as a serious cultural problem. Discussing misandry - the sexist counterpart of misogyny - the authors make clear that this form of hatred must not be confused with reverse sexism or anger and should neither be trivialized nor excused. They break new ground by discussing misandry in moral terms rather than purely psychological or sociological ones and refer critically not only to feminism but to political ideologies on both the left and the right. They also illuminate the larger context of this problem, showing that it reflects the enduring conflict between the Enlightenment and romanticism, inherent flaws in postmodernism, and the dualistic ("us" versus "them") mentality that has influenced Western thought since ancient times.

A groundbreaking study, Spreading Misandry raises serious questions about justice and identity in an increasingly polarized society. It is important for anyone in interested in ethics, gender, or popular culture, or just concerned about the society we are creating.

"Spreading Misandry turns the tables on the gender wars. It's not men ganging up on women. It is just the reverse--a long and gradual cultural attack on men. This book is a brilliant and perceptive overstatement, but one that is needed to discover the truth that will heal the rift between the sexes." Don Browning, University of Chicago and co-author of From Culture Wars to Common Ground
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Postby Akil Todd Harvey » Sat Dec 03, 2005 5:00 pm

Mis / an / dry (mis'-an-dree) n. hatred of men. 1: the attribution of negative qualities to the entire male gender.2: the claim that masculinity is the source of such human vices such as domination, violence, oppression, and racism. 3: a sexist assumption that (a) male genes, hormones, and physiology, or (b) male cultural nurturing produces war, rape, and physical abuse. 4: the assignment of blame solely to men for humanity's historic evils without including women's responsibility or giving men credit for civilizations achievements. 5: the assumption that any male person is probably dominating, oppressive, violent, sexually abusive, and spiritually immature.

Feel free to debate issues not personalities and you will do fine......I place my personal issues here not so I may be attacked for them, but for the purpose of putting the personal where the political lies.........The feminists always say that the personal is political, but they tend to mean that for eveyone else, just not themselves......if you want to put your heart and soul on the line as I have, open yourself up as I have, right here and now, then you can take pot shots at me, in the absence of you dealing with your own issues here, rather than taking pot shots at mine, you will be dealt with accordingly.....I put my heart on the line for five pages and someone feels the need to come, tell nothing about themselevs and them tries to tell me what about how i should live or post or whatever.......who is the troll who is doing nothing but using what I have put here for understanding, for the purpose of what???????if you wish to elucidate about yoruself, you are very welcome, if you wish to go after me, I will be quick to aim right at you............these are tough issues and if you are tough, then feel feel free to demonstrate, but show me your toughness cuz you have the guts to write your own issues right here, right now.........otherwise there shall be no shame and there shall be no guilt........I am the only one i see right now being open and honest with my feelings and experiences (oh yeah, Ian has shown us he sees no problem with the two genders, even though he probably has never done what most of us men do with women on a regular basis, try to please them and ourselves, in the most intimate and most vulnerable act known........Thanks to all who took the time to attack or criticize without taking the time to register the parts that you agreed with.... instead of finding points of agreement, you were quick to find points of disagreement, but dont worry, that just let's me know about you.....One of the most useful things about pissing people off (deliberately or otherwise) is the fact that it gets them to admit stuff that they were busy hiding for quite some time......I put out the hooks waiting for the sharks to take the bait.......if instead, you wish to comment on the positive.....you will find me more than a little warm and inviting.....I have written pages and pages of constructive writings that demand comment, comments from the lives of men (if they are men), who can tell how they have been oppressed........

My eyes are so open now, I find the oppression right out in the light of day......

I used to get all these stares from women, cuz I am male and white....but now I am safe.......

I have ducktaped my handicapped placard to my forehead so that everyone can more readily see that I am a member of one of the priviledged groups, not the evil white male that every one suspects me to be......I know everyone is convinced that I enslaved (personally) millions of black people while I wasnt busyt enslaving all the brown people while I wasnt busy personally enslaving all the red and yellow people, while I was busy oppressing every female on the planet.....I have been a busy boy, it takes so much time oppressing all the minority groups, I have little time left over for myself......

Women are so oppressed by men that they outnumber men in prison by three to one.......oooops, that figure is the reverse, men outnumber women in prison three or more to one.....but dont worry, that is only a problem for men.......
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Postby Gene DeMambro » Sat Dec 03, 2005 5:22 pm

The Supreme Court has ruled that sex discrimination law was enacted to protect women only.

...except court case after court case has protected men against sexual harassment from women, mena nd women against sexual harassment from members of the same sex, and protects men and women against reprisal when they act to prevent sexual harassment of members of the opposite sex (like a man helping prevent women from being harassed or mistreated inthe workplace or school).

They cannot even adopt their own child should the wife/girlfriend opt to give it up for adoption.

...except in those cases where the burth fathers were granted custody after the adoption where the courts ruled that the fathers were denied parental rights.
ATH: Take Dr. Ian's advice (at least the part about having a nice date with your wife).

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Postby Akil Todd Harvey » Sat Dec 03, 2005 5:27 pm

WASHINGTON — The U.S. Department of Justice released
its first statistical report on prison rape and abuse
Sunday, but acknowledged that much sexual violence in
prisons was probably never reported.

In a report required by the 2003 Prison Rape
Elimination Act, the Justice Department's statistical
arm measured sexual violence reported to prison
authorities last year.

The report said there were an estimated 8,210
incidents in the nation's prisons and jails, which
hold about 2.1 million inmates. But the report warned
that there was no reliable estimate of unreported
sexual victimization.

The prison rape act also established a commission,
which is to begin hearing testimony on the issue next
month, and mandated better training for prison staff.

In state-operated juvenile facilities, allegations of
staff sexual misconduct ran proportionately almost 10
times higher than for adult facilities.

Good News, Most prison rape is man on man and it goes
unreported in most cases. Another piece of good news.
We lock up over 25% of the world's prison population
despite the fact that we have only 4% of the world's
But dont worry, since this problem
affects men the most, few feminist will ever see this
as a problem sufficient to require real action.

When is the only time a Rape joke is socially
acceptable? when its told by a feminist and a man is
the butt of the joke (a guilty one presumably, but
arent they all guilty of something-we just havernt
found out yet).

Ian, Prison sex is good isnt it? isnt that where we want our men to end up, Ian? Would feminsist groups get excited if the majoirty of those who committed crimes were women? or would feminists groups, if confronted with the lopsided crime and punishement stats in this country, liken it to the time of the witch hunts (which is what my mother's phd dissertation was about) in which most of the accused criminals were women......Today, women in women studies classes the nation over get all excited over the prospect of a resurgence of the witchcraft trials because they were prosecutions in which women were the majority of folks accused of the crimes, but practically none of them sees any need to do anythign about the present system in which men are the accused and it is men who spend their lives in jail and it is men who get their reputations destroyed far more often than women........If one man goes to jail, it is easy to blame him, if our country incarcerates more than any other country in the history of the world (per capita), then it certainly says something about BAD our society that no one wants to admit very freely or loudly.....
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Postby Akil Todd Harvey » Sat Dec 03, 2005 5:50 pm

I read the uechi forums rather than participate, i think I have 2 posts in 3 years. Anyway, I've read your comments in the 'negative fatherhood' thread. Your openess and honesty on the topic are refreshing, I've seen and felt this crap since I was a kid and do push back. My wife often attributes stuff to me that just isn't true, sometiomes she's mad at the world and her situations and I'm a convenient scapegoat. I set it straight, we're cool with each other, but you have to stop this ##### in its' tracks otherwise you're giving tacit approval, and it'll only get worse.

So many are afraid to stand up for themselves, to expose injustices and rail against them. To be a man. I applaud you.

I got this pm of encouragement the other day...I am not here for myself, I am here for this guy and for the woman who is not ready to speak up either.....and for the children who, like me, didnot know any better than to believe the rancor and hatred that my mother encouraged between me and my father and between me and all men.

I have witnessed plenty of girlfriends telling their boyfriends, "You dont like girls do you?"....why? cuz he is trying to paint and doesnt want to have to move to a new spot every time his grilfriend stands directly in front of where he was painting.....I witness girfriends tell their boyfriends, "any guy would kill to have me." and i wonder, is she also suggesting that he is merely useless, spoiled version of chop liver lucky to have her.....we men have value even if women do not see it at the time of their tongue lashings......

oh, and one of the most fun things I do of all, is get you folks into the wrong tizzy.....I was participating in this on-line forum on women and men's violence and they all get excited about me and my child custody case......and I am like, lol, you fools, I dont even have kids, u have been reading things in my posts that are not even there........get to know me before you judge me and put yourself and your experiences out here before you throw out judgements......if you just want to throw out your oneliners and not discuss or investigate your own wounds, then you might expect to be ignored.......if you want to make me feel bad for daring to discuss my wound and knowing what it is and that it needs addessing, then you are barking up the wrong tree.....there is no one here without an issue that needs to be addressed ........bill, you have a wound that needs to be addressed and I am not sure that you have done that yet, same with mary and same with ian......you dont get to address my wound until you admit your own...i have the guts, the fortitude to tell you what hurts the most and you have the courage to tell me I have to get over it....well, i think you have ventured nothing and as such, you have gained nothing....all these folks coming out of the woodwork to tell me, "you have issues"....and I am like pwease, dude wake up, we all have issues......and most of us have not the guts God gave parakeets with regard to actually opening up our own feelings......ok, men, tell us your feelings, so say the women (and some men)....now we will tell you which ones you are allowed to have........flock you, I will define for myself what feelings are acceptable and which ones are not.....you dont know me well enough to know what is legitimate and what is not......We women will define for you what feelings are acceptable and which ones are not, crapola...
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Postby IJ » Sun Dec 04, 2005 1:55 am

ATH, what is your point?

Are men portrayed as villains in movies and on TV? Yep. So what? They're also matched, one for one, by heroes. You think there is a systemic antimale bias on the boob tube? Aren't most of the producers and TV CEO's MEN? What're they up to? Zombies controlled by remote? I personally have seen a change in male portrayals on TV: the 90's man, sensitive, well groomed and considerate, has made a big appearance and pushed out some of the pigs.

Are there stereotypes about men and white men? Sure. But, as you may have noticed, those stereotypes have been matched and exceeded by those for almost every other group. What I'm saying is, bitch all you want about the horrible portrayal of the white male on TV, then try putting on blackface and shopping with an open bag. I won't deny that there are imperfections in our society's solutions for racism and sexism and their effects on white men, and the way admissions quotas affect white guys (and asians and indians), and the way men are treated in divorce proceedings. It's not perfect.

But it is more perfect here for many, especially the average standard white guy, than it is for most of the rest of the world and for many other colors, sexes, religions and what not. Calling this some kind of enormous crisis (I'm not saying there's nothing to be done, but jeeez!) just makes it look like you are grabbing for a piece of the victim pie.
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Postby Akil Todd Harvey » Mon Dec 05, 2005 4:50 am

Of interest to most people is not so much biological sex per se but culturally transmitted notions of what that means: in a word, gender. For many people, gender is not merely one important factor of human existence; it is the only important one. By the 1980’s, the word “gender” was used routinely as a synonym for “women.” To study gender is still, by implication, to study women. More specifically, it is to study the victimization of women. College course on “gender” are usually courses on women trying to survive patriarchal tyranny. Men are always mentioned courses on “gender,” even featured, but almost invariably as those who created the problem of “gender” in the first place. This has meant that (1) men are society’s official scapegoats and held responsible for all evil, including that done by women they have deluded or intimidated; (2) women are society’s official victims and held responsible for all good, including that done by men they have influenced or converted; (3) men must be penalized, even as innocent individuals, for the collective guilt of men throughout history; and (4) women must be compensated, even as undeserving individuals, for their collective victimization throughout history. Two underlying assumptions are that the ends justifies the means and that collective rights trump individual rights.

PP. 7 -8 Spreading Misandry

I coulda started with this...

Still another woman calls men “pompous primadonnas” for daring to talk about their anger. She forgets that early feminists were called “aggressive bitches” when they first dared to talk about their own problems. The same attitude is taken by another woman who dismisses men for “carrying grudges.” By this, she implies that they cannot possibly have legitimate reasons for feeling angry; their attitudes can be explained only with reference to personal problems [“Get Help” for your “issues”]. Several women believe that the guests are “men who don’t have any self-confidence.” Men who criticize feminism must be “weak,” in other words, or “paranoid.” Never mind that those who dare to criticize conventional wisdom, as understood in this context by feminists, are precisely those with courage. Then too, feminists themselves have often been dismissed either as lesbians or as bitter and neurotic women who cannot find men to love them. And those who believe that men are collectively involved in a sinister conspiracy to oppress women place themselves within the classical definition of paranoia. One might well ask, moreover why men should be morally condemned – moral disapproval is always implied - for being insecure. Insecurity is a psychological condition, not a moral problem. The appropriate response is surely to find out precisely why people are felling insecure and do something about it, not to attack them. Finally, and most importantly, women have historically used shame to manipulate men. They have sometimes used the taunt of cowardice, for example, to shame men into defending the family or community. In this case, they are using shame to prevent men from responding to a threat. In the face of a real threat, it is both healthy and necessary to acknowledge the source of danger and confront it. When feminists look down on men, they are indeed a threat to the self-esteem required by every individual or group…

No one mentions feminists such as Andrea Dworkin, Laurel Holiday, and Mary Daly, who argue that men are collectively vicariously guilty for all human suffering, past and present. Some of these feminists hold influential positions in the academic world. Generally speaking, the women in this audience claim to be unaware of any feminists who hate men. According to them, feminism is only about equality and opportunity. They are sincere, no doubt, but also naïve.

PP. 65-66, Spreading Misandry

But some folks here prove my points for me even better than if I just came out and said it...by their oh so predictable actions ( I woulda fallen for it myself had I not woken from my oh so long slumber, forsaking my rights to folks I naively thought would protect me...

What is happening to men as a result of this massive assault on their identity? How do men feel about being portrayed over and over again as psychotic or sinister thugs? [sigh, where's Dana?] What does it mean for a group of people to be identified as a class of victimizers? We will not know the full effect of all this misandry for many years. Given the predictable results of unleashing institutionalized anger against identifiable target groups (which is hatred) and the unpredictable results of manipulating collective guilt (which would either be destruction or self-destruction), this is a questionable method for pursuing social change, to say the least.

P. 248, Spreading Misandry

Spent the last two days changing the oil in the van, hanging some exterior lights with a buddy.......and just chillin......no time to argue......we got people to wake up....men and women......we dont have to be locked into two dimensional representations of ourselves that Holloywood or some ideologues try to lock us into.....
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Woman Suffragists Are Most Often Racists

Postby Akil Todd Harvey » Mon Dec 05, 2005 5:11 pm

The suffragists promised to make the negro’s disenfranchisement permanent. Frances Willard dedicated herself to suffrage as well as to temperance – woman suffrage, of course, not negro suffrage. In the late 1880’s, she made a tour of the South that moved her to offer “pity” to white southerners, saddled with “immeasurable” problem of “the colored race,” a debased and unrestrained race, to willard’s mind, “multiply[ing] like the locusts of Egypt.” Whose man members were mainly, it seemed, rapists looking for white victims, “menac[ing]” the safety of women, of childhood, of the home”. For her part, [Carrie Chapman] Catt confessed publicly that the North had acted unwisely in legislating “the indiscriminate enfranchisement of the negro in 1868” during the carpetbagger days of Reconstruction; now that Negroes were beginning to migrate in increasing numbers to Northern cities, Northerners like herself, she said, could understand, share, and even further the south’s anti-Negro suffrage position. After all, as another suffrage spokeswoman pointed out, “there are more white women who can read and write than [there are] negro voters.” Women, once enfranchised, would end what Catt called “rule by illiteracy” and “insure immediate and durable white supremacy, honestly attained,” as the southern suffragist Belle Kearney boldly put it in 1903.

Ann Douglas, Terrible Honesty; mongrel Manhattan in the 1920’s (New York: Farrar, Strauss, & Giroux, 1995), P. 255.

More of the truth from the history of the movement.......

Not all American suffragists were racists. Jane Addams joined the NAACP and fought to integrate Chicago’s schools. But even she supported Theodore Roosevelt’s Progressive Party when it called for woman suffrage but rejected negro rights. And not many of her colleagues would have thought twice about that. In 1870, Elizabeth Cady Stanton and Susan B. Anthony refused to lobby for the Fifteenth Amendment. They did so on the grounds that this would give negro men the vote but not (white) women. Like many other white women, Stanton saw black men as rapists. She predicted “fearful outrages” on “womanhood” if they were enfranchised. BY 1867, both Cady and Stanton joined forces with a Democrat who supported woman suffrage. George Train’s motto was, “Women first, and Negro Last.” In 1899, the National Suffrage convention refused to endorse the pleas of black members to abolish Jim Crow cars on railroads. In 1913, black suffragists were asked not to participate in a Washington Parade. In 1919, a delegation from the Colored Negro Women’s Clubs was “politely but firmly” denied membership in the National American Women’s Suffrage Association. Correctly, or incorrectly, W.E.B. Du Bois came to the conclusion that “the negro race has suffered more from the antipathy and narrowness of [white] women both North and South than from any single source.” At any rate, this dirty little secret is no longer a secret. When Carrie Chapman Catt’s alma mater, Iowa State University, decided to name a building after her, the result was protest. Catt is defended by those who argue that her behavior should be understood within its “context,” a degree of historical objectivity that would never be granted to men with a record of racism. Others disagree. “Morality and people treating people with dignity” said one protester, “are not things that are bound by time. They are basic principles.” PP. 196-7, Spreading Misandry

and more...

Central to all ideologies, as we say, is Dualism. Like Marxists, ideological feminists identify a “class” that is inherently hostile, one that has forged a universal conspiracy to dominate, exploit, and oppress. The class of men is privileged and, virtually by definition, evil. The class of women, on the other hand, is underprivileged and, virtually by definition, good. Justice therefore, is the triumph of women over men. The old sexual hierarchy has been stood on its proverbial head, not transformed. Not all feminists are dualistic, and thus ideological, but some of the most brilliant, innovative and, influential ones are. P. 211, Spreading Misandry

Say what you want about me but eventually I figure we will discuss the issues at hand...... I come NOT emptyhanded, but with sources aplenty.........the suffragists werent as perfect as we want to remember them to be and neither are the feminists of today......arent black men still the most falsely accused group of males in this country??????? and what are they most likely to be falsely accused of????? Rape.....some things never change.....
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Akil Todd Harvey
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Postby IJ » Mon Dec 05, 2005 7:33 pm

ATH: a few suggestions.

1) If you like a book, don't quote from it beginning to end; recommend it. Then, fill threads with your ideas.

2) Do not try to win any points with one person's opinion that many suffragists were racists... in 1880!!! Oh my gosh, many people from any group were racist then! Who cares? What is your point? Should I counter that you're a white male and the founders were too, and owned slaves? It is no reflection on gender issues.

Meanwhile I will go dig up a view pieces on gender issues myself that I'd be interested in hearing you comment on. Let's see how long it takes....
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Postby IJ » Mon Dec 05, 2005 8:04 pm

And here are a few selected results. ATH, before you get excited or hypothesize about my motives, my point is not to ascribe any of these acts to you or YOUR particular brand of islamic faith, but simply to remind us all that while the horror of a villain portrayed by a male on TV is certain, there are other things (such as getting your head stoned or shot to pieces for running afoul of harsh gender roles and oppressive islamic laws) that we could be focusing on, especially since these people share the larger faith that you adopted.

I especially liked the first for its honesty.


This one entertainingly biased:

This one from those zealots at national geographic:
http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news ... lling.html
There is nothing in the Koran, the book of basic Islamic teachings, that permits or sanctions honor killings. However, the view of women as property with no rights of their own is deeply rooted in Islamic culture, Tahira Shahid Khan, a professor specializing in women's issues at the Aga Khan University in Pakistan, wrote in Chained to Custom, a review of honor killings published in 1999.

"Women are considered the property of the males in their family irrespective of their class, ethnic, or religious group. The owner of the property has the right to decide its fate. The concept of ownership has turned women into a commodity which can be exchanged, bought and sold."

Honor killings are perpetrated for a wide range of offenses. Marital infidelity, pre-marital sex, flirting, or even failing to serve a meal on time can all be perceived as impugning the family honor.

Amnesty International has reported on one case in which a husband murdered his wife based on a dream that she had betrayed him. In Turkey, a young woman's throat was slit in the town square because a love ballad had been dedicated to her over the radio."

And some thoughts on Sharia law, from killings to sexism to involuntary circumcision:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/theissues/art ... 72,00.html

Here's a Sharia defense for western readers:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/religion/religions ... principals

ATH, how did you select out for your concern the plight of western men? Why has it received your wrath and the gender violence of islam, your relative silence?
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