Ian,
Hopefully, my absence hasnt gotten you too excited.....I have been quite busy trying to get my wife into UCLA or FSU grad school in interacticve design, among other life maintaining rituals..........
I have been thinking about this thread and its rules for some time.......most of the rules I still find amusing and annoying........stultifying might be a better word.......
no long posts........makes sense, but doesnt define what is considered long...........is one page long or is only 99 pages a long post.......and what effect does eliminating long posts from this important thread possibly have?????? I would argue that NOT allowing long posts is tantamount to saying we dont want to discuss this important issue in any great detail.......kind of like our lame media that pretends to inform us, but rarely does so, cuz they dumb it all down into five second
sound bites.........
My wife teachs online graduate school (for example) and there are some students who like to post very short responses.....someone will make an interactive media presentation and your job is to critique it as effectively as possible........some of the students just write, "yup", "I liked it", without declaring what they liked about it........there is no detail, just empty sound bite.......
so, I want to know, Ian, is that how we want to make this important disucssion? just another sound bite opportunity to leave people ill-informed........and I expect more than a "yup" or a "yeah" as an answer cuz otherwise I would have to conclude that you do not want any real discussion, but rather merely a chance to discredit Islam without really looking at the issues in any real depth..........
As another example, we were asked to make no long posts and yet the chapter in the Quran named "woman" is over 70 pages long (that includes English and Arabic and some notations that explain some things)........an issue as important as this cannot be discussed in any serious manner without the freedom to make in depth analysis.........of course, I doubt that that is what Ian wanted, but I imagine he was just looking for a place where we could all throw out some one liners and there would no opportunity to discuss important issues in depth, not merely superficially........
As well, another rule that diapoints is the one regarding sarcasm........as if this method of rhetoric had no long history and tradition in this culture.........
Sarcasm has a rich and ancient history. From the time when cavemen said "unk" when they meant "eeunk", it has been part of human tradition. The earliest recorded sarcastic comments date from the time of the Ancient Greeks, when philosophers would say really quite biting things about triangle theorums and the like.
However, it was the Romans who really made sarcasm into an art form. Horace, to name but one of the great authors, wrote innumerable satires and epistles which were as filled with sarcasm as a football match is with surpressed violence.
Sadly, with the fall of the Romans, sarcasm laid fallow for some considerable time, reappearing Europe-wide with the Rennaissance. Its renewed popularity led to the writing of many a sarcastic play, some so witty that the actors in them developed puckered mouths after only 10 minutes on stage.
In Britain, in particular, sarcasm flourished, and has continued to do so ever since, except for the brief period between the reigns of Charles I and II. During these years Oliver Cromwell the "protector", a staunch Puritan, all he could to outlaw dancing, games, sarcasm, and all the other evil forms of fun, which he saw as the tool of Satan. However, sarcasm survived in full health, and has continued unabated.
This could be seen as odd, since the Royal family of England are incapable of understanding sarcasm or what it does. This has been the case since Georgian times. It is said that when George I discovered he must learn English to rule England, a genetic mutation occurred that led to this phenomenon. It was subsiquently passed on and continues today. It is interesting to note that our present Queen Mother is the only member of the Windsor family that does not possess this genetic defect, and therefore is able to use and understand sarcasm as well as you or I. This singular fact was used to try and declare her illegitemate at one time, but the ignorence of sarcasm of our present Queen and her siblings soon quashed that, and it is now presumed to be simply a fluke.
Sarcasm exists in many forms, almost all of them in some way adulterated. The most prevelant of these impure forms is American Sarcasm, called after its place of origin.
Probably the purest form of sarcasm that ever existed was confined to Chinese monastry for much of the 18th and early 19th century, before becoming more widely known around China in the late 19th. Tragically, this exquisite form was completely obliterated in the Cultural Revolution of the 20th century.
Little is known of the sarcasm of South America, but from what clues we can piece together, it seems that the Incas and one of the indigenous peoples of Peru developed astonishingly complex forms of sarcasm that baffle explanation today. All known peoples of the Amazonian jungle enjoyed sarcasm to a greater or lesser extent, notably those in the south-west of the continent.
We can only hypothesize about the lyrical sarcastis dream-stories of the Aborigany people, as they mysteriously disappeared at the end of the 18th century. At this time, Britain had been using the island as a dumping ground for its criminals for a number of years. After the crocodile dundee movies of the 1970s and 80s, it is impossible that sarcasm will ever resurge anywhere in Australasia.
Russia is an interesting case as far as sarcasm is concerned. The Russian language does not have a word for "sarcasm", so instead they employ an odd form of stating the obvious to acheive the same effect. This is very difficult to translate into English.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/h2g2/alabaster/A642917
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/magazine/4384734.stm
Note first of all that we are all sarcastic, often without noticing it. "Oh, very funny," we say, without cracking a smile. When the cat suffers an upset tummy on the lounge carpet: "That's all I need."
Some phrases are only ever used sarcastically: My heart bleeds. Wise guy. My hero. Big deal. Our beloved leader (in Britain, anyway). And any phrase at all that begins "oh so..." ("He's oh so smart").
Some phrases have been used sarcastically for so long they now mean the opposite of what they once did: "Too bad," was once an expression of sympathy, till the sarcastic crowd got their hands on it.
But if you're willing to move on from everyday sarcasm to something bigger and better, you will find it an art, with a noble tradition. Learn from the masters.
It goes back as far as the Biblical prophets. When the prophets of Baal fail to call down fire from heaven in a contest with Elijah, he cries: "Pray louder! He is a god! Maybe he is daydreaming or relieving himself, or perhaps he's gone on a journey! Or maybe he's sleeping, and you've got to wake him up!" (Good News version)
Some of the great figures of comedy, from Beatrice and Benedick to Chandler Bing, have endeared themselves to discerning audiences with sarcasm. "Why, that's spoken like an honest drover" says Benedick, in Much Ado About Nothing, when Claudio lies to him: "so they sell bullocks."
And the king of sarcasm, Basil Fawlty, when Mrs Richards complains about the view of Torquay: "What did you expect to see out of a Torquay hotel bedroom window? Sydney Opera House perhaps? The Hanging Gardens of Babylon? Herds of wildebeest sweeping majestically...?"
So there is no reason why sarcasm has to be dumb. Just as there are corny puns and inspired ones, and funny and feeble versions of three men going into a pub, so the glories of sarcasm are only limited by your wit. Learn from the examples above: apply a flair for words, wit, a pinch of attitude, and maybe a toilet reference, and the world will marvel. How hard can it be?
Last Updated: Friday, 28 October 2005, 10:23 GMT 11:23 UK
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The rules of sarcasm
By Steve Tomkins
Sarcasm is so ubiquitous these days, it almost goes unnoticed. But, as David Beckham proved, when he was sent off this week for seemingly clapping a referee who had just booked him, not everyone is a fan. The trick is to use sarcasm intelligently, and sparingly.
They say sarcasm is the lowest form of wit. Yeah, right. Assuming "they" are the same experts who tell us "Look before you leap" and "He who hesitates is lost", then I think we all know how incisive and invaluable their advice is. What would we do without it?
What have these geniuses got against sarcasm? Well, it's rude. It is a put-down, and often unkind. If someone says to you, "That was really clever", you would prefer them not to be sarcastic.
Also, it's crude. It's about as clever as pointing and laughing. Compared to the incisive brilliance of Oscar Wilde or Dorothy Parker, simply saying the opposite of what you mean does not impress anyone with your razor-sharp repartee.
When David Beckham got himself sent off for clapping the referee who had booked him, that so boosted his standing in the nation, didn't it? (Incidentally, the England captain had the last laugh, when it was later judged he hadn't meant to insult the ref.)
Beckham and Rooney
Beckham and Wayne Rooney - both red-carded for sarcastic clapping
But "they" aren't so big and clever themselves, putting down sarcasm. For a start, surely the lowest form of wit is loud flatulence, not sarcasm. It can be a beautiful and impressive thing (sarcasm, not the other, though each to their own).
So may I offer, in all due sincerity, my tips on how to love sarcasm and make it work for you.
Note first of all that we are all sarcastic, often without noticing it. "Oh, very funny," we say, without cracking a smile. When the cat suffers an upset tummy on the lounge carpet: "That's all I need."
Some phrases are only ever used sarcastically: My heart bleeds. Wise guy. My hero. Big deal. Our beloved leader (in Britain, anyway). And any phrase at all that begins "oh so..." ("He's oh so smart").
Some phrases have been used sarcastically for so long they now mean the opposite of what they once did: "Too bad," was once an expression of sympathy, till the sarcastic crowd got their hands on it.
But if you're willing to move on from everyday sarcasm to something bigger and better, you will find it an art, with a noble tradition. Learn from the masters.
Follow the bard
It goes back as far as the Biblical prophets. When the prophets of Baal fail to call down fire from heaven in a contest with Elijah, he cries: "Pray louder! He is a god! Maybe he is daydreaming or relieving himself, or perhaps he's gone on a journey! Or maybe he's sleeping, and you've got to wake him up!" (Good News version)
Robert Reynolds as Claudio, Robert Lindsay as Benedick
Benedick, right, makes light of the cattle drover's reputation for dishonesty
Some of the great figures of comedy, from Beatrice and Benedick to Chandler Bing, have endeared themselves to discerning audiences with sarcasm. "Why, that's spoken like an honest drover" says Benedick, in Much Ado About Nothing, when Claudio lies to him: "so they sell bullocks."
"Ooh," says Chandler as Ross attaches his nicotine patch, "I'm alive with pleasure now".
Then there's Eddie Izzard, recounting how he saw a London Underground guard checking an unattended bag by shaking it: "Oh, Captain Clever! Rattle it, if it doesn't go off it can't be a bomb!"
And the king of sarcasm, Basil Fawlty, when Mrs Richards complains about the view of Torquay: "What did you expect to see out of a Torquay hotel bedroom window? Sydney Opera House perhaps? The Hanging Gardens of Babylon? Herds of wildebeest sweeping majestically...?"
So there is no reason why sarcasm has to be dumb. Just as there are corny puns and inspired ones, and funny and feeble versions of three men going into a pub, so the glories of sarcasm are only limited by your wit. Learn from the examples above: apply a flair for words, wit, a pinch of attitude, and maybe a toilet reference, and the world will marvel. How hard can it be?
People repellent
Could "they" be equally wrong about sarcasm being especially rude and unkind? As if. Almost all jokes are at someone's expense after all, apart from puns. And if sarcasm is particularly apt for putting the fools in their places, it can equally be self-deprecating, or just a complaint about the outrageous trials of life that beset good people like us.
That said, it can be a powerful anti-personnel device, when the personnel around you really deserve it. But a couple of caveats.
Firstly, make sure you're right. Like all powerful weapons, you don't want sarcasm to blow up in your face.
Secondly, don't overuse it. It's like chilli. A little here and there spices things up and shows them who's boss, but you don't make many friends by sprinkling it in everything.
What annoys me about sarcasm is people's general inability to distinguish it from irony. Irony and sarcasm are two separate and distinct subjects, although they do overlap at times.
I find in these politically correct days sarcasm is the only tool you have against the PC Nazi's, they simply don't understand it, so they can not ban it.
The problem with the written word is that with no verbal clues it can sometimes be difficult to tell whether a comment is sincere or sarcastic. Great article, by the way.
Sarcasm is to the British, what Sincerity is to the Americans. and it's easily proved. Just say "Have a nice day!"
If you have been sarcastic, and the victim retorts by saying, "sarcasm is the lowest form of wit", simply ask them to name higher forms of wit. They will respond, rather sharply, by saying, "...erm, er".
It all reminds me of that character on the "Mary Whitehouse Experience" (played, I think, by Rob Newman) who had the unfortunate affliction of sounding sarcastic when he was being sincere, and only sounding sincere when he was trying to be sarcastic. Got him into all sorts of trouble. I still use his catchphrase "Oh what a personal disaster" (said in sarcastic tones).
The people who regard sarcasm as the lowest form of wit are the dullards who (a) think up a witty riposte some eight hours after it would be useful and (b) are most often its victims. Since sarcasm of the non-footballer variety requires intelligence, it's only natural that it should be resented by them.
Anyone who thinks that sarcasm is the lowest form of wit has obviously never seen a custard pie thrown in someone's face. Or heard of "happy slapping".