Posted: Tue Jan 17, 2006 12:56 am
I don't always get you Bill. Here we have a case of a lesbian being expelled for doing what lesbians do, where it would be very easy to cry discrimination and demand she get to go back, and as the lone outspoken same sexer on the forums I say it's a matter of the contract with the school and what everyone agreed to and you get all upset because I was "hijacked." I'm still lost and you're still upset about nothing I've actually said, from what I can tell.
"Not just any one, mind you, but one of MY choosing. And I support the right of others to do the same."
Me too. So why are you upset?
"You argue best when you argue my point, Ian"
No Bill. My point from the very beginning. You missed it??
"You don't have to like the contracts that certain people enter in for the benefit of THEIR OWN children."
Ah, but I DO like them. Go back to my first comments. A contract is a contract and if they signed one that's the one parents and kid should follow.
"Do you think the school had a right to kick him permanently from the team, effectively ending his reason for going to the school in the first place?"
Yes I do. As I've said a half dozen times, read the contract. And football players have such a record of ... less ideal conduct than biochem majors, we'll say... and I'm sure this was all laid out for the young man. In his case, you list activities which are illegal at any age, activities which threaten the lives of others, and contributing to reckless behaviors among others. That's a far cry from the activities I mentioned (smoking, speeding with no mention of recklessness--this is but an activity we all engage in) and I specified I was speaking to my opinions about what I would want a school to do, not arguing that schools should change what they do or that no one should be able to seek more restrictive schooling for whomever. Again, what are you upset about?
"So when a Christian school has a student engaged in "un-Christian behavior" outside of school (whatever that is...), don't you think they would be stupid not to punish the student in some way?"
Well, that's a tough question, since Christian behavior runs a huge spectrum from favoring lesbian embracing to lesbian executing, and "in some way" could mean a chastizement to expulsion or corporal punishment. My first comments still stand: read the contract. However, in the imaginary christian school I would run, I wouldn't investigate students for activities outside of school that were generally private and unlikely to affect the school, whether comission (being lesbian) or omission (donating nothing to charity, not volunteering--how many kids they throw out this year for that?). Naturally it matters not how I would run a christian school, however.
"This I find highly insulting, Ian. You are presuming I don't discuss sex with my kids because my views are different from yours. How narrow-minded! How prejudiced your thinking! How uninformed!"
You know what happens when you assume.....
I said that informing your kids they will be punished if they have any kind of sex, and I mean grandly punished since we are talking about jeopardizing their college plans, can discourage them from talking to you and lack of talking = lack of knowledge and that can lead to mistakes. That's true... I didn't say you directly told your kids not to talk to you. I said threatening consequences decreases openness. You really think that's not a valid concern? Teens steal condoms because they're embarassed to even buy them from strangers some of the time. Of course worrying they might get slammed for having sex can discourage them from talking to their parents about sex! If you think otherwise, you haven't been observing adolescents as closely as you think. I for one wasn't going to approach my parents with any questions unless I knew not just that they hadn't said anything homophobic... not just that they accepted questions... but only if I knew they would receive the questions happily and celebrate my life as much as any regular kid. I didn't get that sense of safety, and I didn't ask or tell for 5 years--that's just plain wise, according to my friend who came out to his parents and lost all his college funding. You want openness with your kids, you make them feel safe being open. (My parents, I should point out, are sweethearts, so that just goes to show.)
"Focus on your own story a bit, Ian. The more you do so, the more you'll understand what I'm trying to communicate."
Just spell this out Bill. I've been saying reasonable things (a contract is a contract; my not so weird preferences for the role of a school; adults who break and broke laws have to acknowledge the effects of that behavior on discussions with the kids; importance of sex ed) from the beginning and you're acting as if I'm quite thick. Just what are you upset about?
"Not just any one, mind you, but one of MY choosing. And I support the right of others to do the same."
Me too. So why are you upset?
"You argue best when you argue my point, Ian"
No Bill. My point from the very beginning. You missed it??
"You don't have to like the contracts that certain people enter in for the benefit of THEIR OWN children."
Ah, but I DO like them. Go back to my first comments. A contract is a contract and if they signed one that's the one parents and kid should follow.
"Do you think the school had a right to kick him permanently from the team, effectively ending his reason for going to the school in the first place?"
Yes I do. As I've said a half dozen times, read the contract. And football players have such a record of ... less ideal conduct than biochem majors, we'll say... and I'm sure this was all laid out for the young man. In his case, you list activities which are illegal at any age, activities which threaten the lives of others, and contributing to reckless behaviors among others. That's a far cry from the activities I mentioned (smoking, speeding with no mention of recklessness--this is but an activity we all engage in) and I specified I was speaking to my opinions about what I would want a school to do, not arguing that schools should change what they do or that no one should be able to seek more restrictive schooling for whomever. Again, what are you upset about?
"So when a Christian school has a student engaged in "un-Christian behavior" outside of school (whatever that is...), don't you think they would be stupid not to punish the student in some way?"
Well, that's a tough question, since Christian behavior runs a huge spectrum from favoring lesbian embracing to lesbian executing, and "in some way" could mean a chastizement to expulsion or corporal punishment. My first comments still stand: read the contract. However, in the imaginary christian school I would run, I wouldn't investigate students for activities outside of school that were generally private and unlikely to affect the school, whether comission (being lesbian) or omission (donating nothing to charity, not volunteering--how many kids they throw out this year for that?). Naturally it matters not how I would run a christian school, however.
"This I find highly insulting, Ian. You are presuming I don't discuss sex with my kids because my views are different from yours. How narrow-minded! How prejudiced your thinking! How uninformed!"
You know what happens when you assume.....
I said that informing your kids they will be punished if they have any kind of sex, and I mean grandly punished since we are talking about jeopardizing their college plans, can discourage them from talking to you and lack of talking = lack of knowledge and that can lead to mistakes. That's true... I didn't say you directly told your kids not to talk to you. I said threatening consequences decreases openness. You really think that's not a valid concern? Teens steal condoms because they're embarassed to even buy them from strangers some of the time. Of course worrying they might get slammed for having sex can discourage them from talking to their parents about sex! If you think otherwise, you haven't been observing adolescents as closely as you think. I for one wasn't going to approach my parents with any questions unless I knew not just that they hadn't said anything homophobic... not just that they accepted questions... but only if I knew they would receive the questions happily and celebrate my life as much as any regular kid. I didn't get that sense of safety, and I didn't ask or tell for 5 years--that's just plain wise, according to my friend who came out to his parents and lost all his college funding. You want openness with your kids, you make them feel safe being open. (My parents, I should point out, are sweethearts, so that just goes to show.)
"Focus on your own story a bit, Ian. The more you do so, the more you'll understand what I'm trying to communicate."
Just spell this out Bill. I've been saying reasonable things (a contract is a contract; my not so weird preferences for the role of a school; adults who break and broke laws have to acknowledge the effects of that behavior on discussions with the kids; importance of sex ed) from the beginning and you're acting as if I'm quite thick. Just what are you upset about?