Interesting thought...

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Postby Valkenar » Wed Mar 19, 2008 8:29 pm

cxt wrote:I already "backed them up" BTW months ago on the orginal thread.

I'm talking about backing it up with quotes from this thread, not the other one.

In any case, your (AGAIN) ignoring the context........I'm positing that there may be more effective ways of controlling violent crimnals than catering to their whims.

More effective, or more cost-effective? There's a big difference.

The main reason I argue cost-effectiveness on these boards is because that's all many people seem to care about. Arguments relying on things like mercy or sympathy are just ridiculed as liberal weakness. All anybody wants to hear about is what is cheapest for them. So, where applicable, I argue on the terms that people will listen to. You yourself have made the argument "Why should I pay for this scumbag's life of luxury in prison?" many times in this thread. Specifically from you I anticipate a post about how I'm so cruel and mean to the victims and that kindness to the cruel is cruelty to the kind. That argument is why I focused on the money aspect, despite the fact that (as you point out) the money issue isn't really important to me.

But truthfully, I believe that our prison system is incredibly corrupt and inhumane and cutting off DVD privileges really seems completely absurd. I mean, these people go in for selling someone a bag of marijuana and maybe end up having their teeth knocked out so that their cell-mates can have an easier time forcing oral sex on them. If you really want to talk about prison conditions and how to improve them that's one thing, but your first comment about prison situations was to save money by not buying DVDs.

If you ask me our society is excessively punitive already. We have sex registries so that teenage kids having consentual sex can live in constant fear and harassment forever because their name goes on from sex offender lists. We have tons of people who love to hear about terrorists being tortured, who think "pound me in the ass prison" is just the height of justice and generally just love it when anyone they can identify as a "bad guy" has something terrible happen to him.

If you want to talk about contradiction, what about the fact that on the one hand you're now saying you care about prison conditions, but your answer to what to do with people abusing welfare is to punish them harshly and save money by taking away DVDs? And your solution to making prisons better is to solitary confinement, medical comas and taking away weight rooms? Here's my take: removing weight rooms will do nothing positive. Solitary confinement drives people quite literally insane and the idea of putting prisoners into medical comas would be laughable if you weren't serious.

It would be interesting to hear Rory weigh in on this, but I doubt he'd waste his time.
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Postby cxt » Wed Mar 19, 2008 10:40 pm


Like I keep saying, you guys really need to go light on the whole "cost effective" thing.......if you want to make that the baseline that takes precedence over all other factors.....I can pretty much guarentee that you won't like where that goes.......profits over people an all that.

I have no "mercy or sympathy" for violent criminals---I save that for their victems.

Society (and I) don't want rapists, child molesters, murderers etc to be mistreated.....but I see no reason to make their time even slighty more enjoyable......esp when it costs money to do that could be better spent elsewhere...IMO

But see Val, its not just "cutting off DVD's" it the whole notion of spending money on luxuries for violent criminals----luxuries of any sort....its IMO either money that could be better spent elsewhere or money that should be spent on helping out the victems of their crimes.

And I agree, prisions are "corrupt"--system is propably in need of an overhall from top to bottom.

And I disagree, I don't think we are "punative" enough....sure you get jacked up results like the teenagers getting tagged as "sex offenders" for having sex with their girlfriends....terrible misscarrige of justice IMO.

But you have inmates able beating, robbing, raping, and killing each other.
You have gangs essentially running the prisons, inmates able to easily support expensive drug habits, even able to effectively run their gangs outside the prisons from inside the prisons........a better method must be found.

And its hardly "punative" when violent criminals have ready accsess to entertainment luxuries that many non-criminals can't afford.

There is a serious difference in my view between "necessity" and "entertainment luxury."

Its not a contridiction...its 2 different topics.

I think people getting welfare--when possible--should meet some minium standards, I think there are lost of jobs that one should be able to do to get welfare--please recall in context we were talking about people that ONLY want to "smoke pot and collect a check" people in actual need should course be helped.........but there should be no free lunch for people able to work but choose not to do so.

At minimum some basic drug testing should be expected.

In prisons, I simply don't think that society has an interest in producing stronger more dangerous predators.....if that means taking away the be it.

As far a "solitary confinment" goes, if I were in prison...I beg to put in solitary....esp if I were in for a non-violent crime.
As its stands now, sending someone to prison means sentenceing them to possible assault and perhaps rape......and in some cases death...none of which is, IMO, at all humane....choices have to be made....I think we should error on the side of safety for the inmate, the guards and society at large.

Don't know how "sane" a seriel rapist or multiple murderer is to be judged on the common use of the term.

Again, I have very little sympathy to spare for violent don't want to be locked up in solitary and not have much in the way of entertainment?

Don't commit violent crimes.
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Postby IJ » Sat Mar 22, 2008 6:01 am

Justin: Here's an excerpt from Drudge for you:

"The White House was forced to admit today to organizing a large, unapproved propaganda experiment designed to pilot mental energy diversion tactics ahead of the release of news of further troop increases in Iraq and Halliburton contracts granted without competition that the administration expects will be unpopular. Said a source who refused to be named, "the government has a new computer program, CXT, which generates off-topic posts to a variety of threads on internet forums. Content is designed to be confusing, antagonistic, and inflame interest by challenging the rights of prisoners, detainees, and other vulnerable populations. To limit suspicion, "human features" are designed into the program, such as overuse of smug wink smileys and lack of editing. We just wanted to see how long people would respond." Said the source, "We hit a martial arts forum first. We knew we had something when people responded seriously to CXT's claim that he couldn't cut and paste or spellcheck after he'd obviously been surfing and posting on the internet for years."

Apparently new inflammatory forum and blog entries are planned before the release of potentially damaging new items and policies. However, the White House has denied involvement in the scheme at their latest press release, repeating the phrase, "We are unaware of and have had no role in the deployment of the CXT post engine." Questions continued unabated until the press secretary suggested that prisoner's paired organs could be donated if they were unable to financially compensate victims for their crimes. Her comments derailed the entire press conference until time ran out. At one point, when reporters attempted to focus the questions back on the CXT program, she denied making the claim, winking smugly and setting off a 15 minute name calling diversion."

So Justin: we've been had.
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Postby cxt » Mon Mar 24, 2008 1:59 pm


Now that is more like. :)

Putting some thought and effort into one insults...showing a bit of creativity.....seriously that is pretty good.....even if you based it off my own post...still shows what you can do with a bit of motivation.

On the other hand....look at how long it took you to think it up...count how many days from your last post to this. And that is after I handed you both the idea and a format to more or less copy.

Overall, its pretty good...but you lose points for length of time it took you to think it up and points for being derivative.

I give it a high 6 to a low 7 out 10. ;)
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Postby gmattson » Mon Mar 24, 2008 2:33 pm

you didn't consider that IJ works full time as a doctor and only devotes 10 minutes a day to his favorite hobby being a humorist!

I must say. . . he did a very good number on you CXT. . . image what he could do if he were devoting more time to his hobby! :)

IJ deserves at least a 9.5 for that post!
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Postby cxt » Mon Mar 24, 2008 4:35 pm

George Mattson

Nah, its still derivative....and uncreditied as well. :)

I have a great deal of fondness for the well-crafted insult.....even if its on me.

But everyone is busy.....some people are holding down a couple of jobs, taking care of kids, teaching gradute level courses, serving in the military........that IJ is a "doctor" should not be a reason to credit him with taking days to steal a concept that I came up with and used in real time.

Everyone is genius......if they have enough time to worked uninterupted, consult with friends, google stuff, mull it over etc.
In martial arts terms, its like looking good all by yourself on the floor...its when the pressure is on that things count.

On the other hand he did have far fewer spelling errors than I did.

Truth to tell its kinda cool being peceived ones very exsistance being the result of a direct plot of the evil ones personal earthly helper....that would be "Bush" to most people.

Slightly less cool in that IJ seems to feel that any opposition to his worldview must be the result of a vastly high level and far reaching plot. ;)
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Postby Valkenar » Tue Mar 25, 2008 3:20 am

cxt wrote:I have a great deal of fondness for the well-crafted insult

Oops, I tried to edit this post but CXT had already replied.

I said something like "Then why do you devote so much space to poorly-crafted ones"
Last edited by Valkenar on Tue Mar 25, 2008 3:55 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Postby cxt » Tue Mar 25, 2008 3:35 am


I don't...I simply reply in kind.

Its like the dojo, you attack people really hard, charge them all get hit hard in return, the harder you charge and the harder you attack....the harder you get hit back.

You guys may dislike me, you may dislike my POV......I know you hate the fact that I have a very different POV,but I never run out on a discusison, I don't insult anyone first and I don't do "drive by" postings.

I give what I get.

It was not me that dropped a poor insult--several of them in fact......then ran away....then came back 3 days later, not to re-enter the discusison, but for the express purpose of dropping another, albeit more finely crafted, insult...then run away again.

Besides....most of time I take the time to craft pretty good ones. ;)

BTW---noticed that you changed your post since I replied--what you said was "then why do you post such poor ones"--not a question--or something close to that........and while I was in the process of answering you more fully you changed it.

Can't tell if your being sarcastic or not however.
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Postby Valkenar » Tue Mar 25, 2008 4:38 am

you may dislike my POV......I know you hate the fact that I have a very different POV

I don't hate that at all. I welcome that, in fact. What I don't like is that you're very quick to resort to personal attacks. Maybe you really do think you're responding in kind, but as far as I can tell you jump straight to snide little remarks like "That maybe true but your the last person I would have expected to invoke an ecomonics argument when there is principle involved." And typically it goes from there to "nice hair splitting and spin" etc. You make it personal all the time, when the rest of us are trying to discuss the ideas.

I don't insult anyone first

I think you absolutely do.

It was not me that dropped a poor insult

The first snide comment in this thread was yours. But frankly I find this whole "he hit me first" "no he hit me" argument patently ridiculous. That's kid's stuff. Sure, maybe you can come across as a real tough who never runs from a discussion and always hit back hard. Bravo on your manly courage, I'm sure we're all very impressed. I genuinely feel sorry for you if you some perceived affront on an internet forum is really something you think you have to take to save face over.

Here's the approach I try to take: when people insult me I laugh at them to myself and continue the discussion as if I didn't even notice their silly little jibe. I find this works quite well. Being insulted on the internet is so utterly inconsequential it defies description. It's like being called a "doody head" by a random 5-year-old on the street. I might think "well that's not very nice" but I'm sure not about to get upset about it.

then came back 3 days later

Okay, well I won't pretend to know what's going on in Ian's life, but guess what you'll rarely see me post on days other than Tuesday or Wednesday. Not that I never will, but often I won't post from Thursday through Sunday. It doesn't mean I'm running form the discussion it means checking some thread that has degenerated to petty insults is not my chief priority.

BTW---noticed that you changed your post since I replied--what you said was "then why do you post such poor ones"--not a question--or something close to that........and while I was in the process of answering you more fully you changed it.

Yeah I realized that I'd rather just avoid this trainwreck of a thread and not contribute to the pointless sniping. Unfortunately you were posting at the same time so I wasn't able to edit before you responded. Sorry about that, and rest assured that it won't happen again. Frankly I'm embarrassed that I allowed myself to be drawn into this game, and I will now excuse myself.

cxt wrote:You guys may dislike me

I don't. This is the internet. I don't think I know you based on what you write here. That would be silly. I think you're probably a decent guy and even though your style of posting strikes me as unnecessarily caustic sometimes, I really wouldn't hold a grudge against you in person.
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Postby cxt » Tue Mar 25, 2008 1:18 pm


Nope, I'm quick to respond to "personal attacks."

My highlighting that you 2 guys really are the last 2 people I would have expected to pull an economic arguement is not any kind of "snide"---its honest surprise since both of you have taken great pains to in the past to not put profits before people....and here you are essentially doing a 180 from that postion.

In my POV that makes you either inconsitant or your taking a POV just for arguements sake...I have a problem with the former--none with the latter...but the was nothing "snide about pointing the inconsistancy out.

And that the both of you take highly nuanced postions is also plain fact......what upsets you is being called on least in my POV.

"Discissing ideas" does not mean "spinning my posts"---in this discussion alone you both framed my posts in a manner inconsistant with my actual statements and my POV, that is not "discussion" of any kind.

"I think you absolutly do"....not from where I'm sitting...I just give what I get.

No, the "first snide comment" was not mine...then again if your defineing me pointing out positional inconsistances as being "snide" then pretty much everything is "snide."

Its not a matter of "impressing you" or "mainly courage" or anything like that, its being honest in a discussion and treating people your talking to with a bit of respect...right up until they decide to get nasty inwhich case its ok if the gloves come off.

Do I really have to point that frameing such a statement in such a manner is of itself kinda nasty?
Look at your own behavior Val, you just "snidely" ;) publically stated that POV that people in a discussion should stick around rather than do "drive by posting", that I feel that people should give what they get etc is me trying to "impress people...and prove my manly courage."

Its not only utterly wrong...its framed in the most insulting fashion possible.

"3 days"

Its contextual Val---he dropped several poorly crafted insults...ran away..then came back 3 days later...not to re-open this discussion, not to talk about anything at all....but to just to insult me again--then run away again--a MUCH better insult but context that IMO is dirty pool.

Its like a sparring match to me Val--and this being a martial arts web-site that is not such a reach--you step on the mat, you fight hard, you fight clean and you win or lose based upon your skills or the luck that don't cheap shot a away..then dart back in for another shot on a whim..then run away again.

Is that how a discussion or a debate should be conducted in your opinion??????

For someone you don't "dislike" you seem from POV to devote much time to being nasty to have done it to several times in your last post alone.
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