Tournament Judging & Competition

[GSantaniello]

Having assisted in officiatting today at the "Uechi Championships" i was happy to help out and see so man familier faces who later shared a large group lunch.

Having had some discussions and thoughts of my owm, i would like to share feelings and/or opinions as to the difficulties in both judging and in competing.

First i would like to mention "kata" judging. As an official, i believe that using the "3 judge" format is flawed. In that all do not think alike and/or look for the same elements in performance, often the 3rd official is the deciding vote in who places where. Yes, it is better than "one" official however, the old format of "FIVE" judges i feel is much fairer to the competitor. Dropping the highest and the lowest score does leave the "average" score which to me is more accurate and fair to the competitiors.

Question is, can we go back to using 5 officialas we "Uechi" competition did in the past and/or are we bound to the "THREE" judge format that K.R.A.N.E. says we must use at there tournament ?

Yes, getting enough officials to do so may require a little more work and trainning everyone to move right along without delay is required. But, would it not be better to re-impliment the 5 official format ?

From a competitors point of view, one who puts their every effort into their kata may feel that their's was the "best" performed out there. In some cases the "best" may not always win first. Then again, different judges look for different things in kata. In some cases "to much" effort may be put into ones peformance.

Also in fighting i believe that "Five Officials" offer up a much "fairer" judging than that of three. I judged several matches today and must admit, often points that i clearly saw were not seen by my fellow officials. Points that they sometimes saw, i did not. Therefore, the side that "two" judges view is more likely to score than the other. We all know that ! However, many competitors do not adjust their position for the visual need.

Although we will never satisfy everyone and judges being human will at times miss things and/or make mistakes, i would like to see us return to 5 judges for more fairness in judging.

However, i think that because we are using faucilities other than our own, we must use their rules and regulations ?

George, any possibilities that we could be allowed to use the extra two judges ?
Has it been discussed ?

I realize others do not use it, however, it is my belief that their is more "fairness" in 5 sets of eyes than in three ?

For those who did not place where they felt they should have, we who have competed in the past have all been there. Sometimes our ego's get in the way, sometimes we are not judged accourdingly and other times, we mess up in our performance.

Other opinions and/or views on the subject please ?

[gmattson]

Gary:
If we hae enough "trained and qualified" officials, yes.



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GEM

[Panther]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by gmattson:
Gary:
If we had enough "trained and qualified" officials, yes. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

As a "non-competitor" I really have no right to speak to this issue. However, I did attend the first judging seminar organized and hosted by Sensei Gary Khoury and taught by Sensei Ron Fagan. The fact that it was being held was widely dispersed and even put on these forums. It was specifically to establish enough "trained and qualified" Uechi-ryu judges who would understand both the international rules and the specifics of Uechi-ryu. The fact that I was allowed to take up valuable space in that course should indicate that more Uechi-ryu practitioners needed to attend. Those who did attend are some of the finest, most dedicated and brightest that Uechi-ryu has to offer. Realizing that some people have other commitments and simply cannot make every event or seminar available, it should still be noted that such seminars are offered to address the needs and desires of the Uechi-ryu community... as well as contributing to the future.

Just my .02 yens worth.

[Gene DeMambro]

IF we have enough judges for kata/pre-arranged kumite, then let's use five. The drop scores also give us the tools to break a tie for 1st. There were a few people with "Uechi-RYu Official" badges on, that didn't judge a single event, or even entered the competition area. Press them into service.

It is possible to judge sparring with three people. This means, that all three judges need to be placed in good positions to see the fights. THe two side judges need to be on the same side, facing the center ref, so as to watch the side the ref can't see. The center ref needs to stay facing the the two side judges, so as to watch his side.

Gene

[david]

It would be nice to have five judges for kata. It would be nice to have five judges for kumite. But I suspect even if this were achieved, there would be criticism that things could be better.

Having competed my share in different venues and different formats, all I look for is consistency in the judging (with whatever subjective criteria each judge by) and the avoidance of partiality.

The way I see it, as a competitor, my job is to compete and to do the best I can and to know in my heart I did that. I'd been in tournies where I couldn't score a point, even when my opponent was clearly physically and mentally beaten. I still accepted the decision (though I may not agree). I competed for the experience and to challenge myself. Sometimes folks miss the point when too focused on a getting a "trophy". The worse of this, when competitors literally run their faces into a punch or kick to get their opponent disqualified. I even won matches that I thought I lost. In these cases, I had gone up to my opponent and concede to them that they had beaten me but didn't get the call.

Folks should try to offer constructive criticsm when needed. But recognize this and seperate it from "whining." Whining is not part of the martial spirit. It eats away at you and renders you a lesser person, a lesser practitioner... A martial artist strives to excel for him/herself, to go on despite the odds. God forbid... who are you going to whine to if and when you get your butt kicked on the street. "It wasn't fair... he suckered me..."

Off the rant,

david

[Panther]

GREAT post, David! As always, you have a knack for cutting through the BS and putting things into perspective.

Doomo Arigato, Moy-Sensei...

[Raffi Derderian]

Hi all,
First of all, there is no rule in KRANE that says you HAVE to use only 3 judges. They have a very strict rule of FIVE JUDGES IN BLACK BELT DIVISIONS. Lets not try to blame our problems on the rules of another organization. Also, I believe we were using NASKA rules, correct?
The reason we don't have 5 judges per ring is because quite simply there are never enough Uechi people there to help out. These are the same people who every year fold their arms and tell us all what we are doing wrong but never do a thing to help.
I have done tons of judging in Uechi and KRANE tournaments. It doesn't matter if there is 3 or 5 judges, there is still bitching and moaning.
David, your post was perfect.
Gene, can you e mail me? I have to ask you something.
Raf

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www.derderian-academy.com

[GSantaniello]

Raffi,

I agree that regardless of having 3 or 5 judges people will still bitch and moan. However, i do believe that 5 judges can provide fairer judging.

4 corner refs in sparring & a center ref. can see more than only three. Angles are cut down with less eyes to observe. Points are missed and consequently, the rightful winner does not always suffice.

In Kata, if two of three judges are close in their scoring, then the 3rd judge ways heavy on who places. With dropping a high and low score, the "average" is the determining factor.

Having judges as much you have, i'm sure you would have to at least see some validity in that.

Two years ago at the Uechi Tournament I had 5 judges sitting in a ring for kata ready to go. A Co-ordinater approached me informing me that this was "not" allowed at this tournament.

I understand the point you make and agree. We will not make everyone happy regardless of how we handle things. Simular situation in past dan test.

As Gene mentions, there are others present on the sidelines that could help. Maybe they would have if asked ? However, if only three are allowed i judging, then all they can do is stand on the sidelines.

I admit that in judging, one does not get to watch the black belt divisions unless they are judging them. However, in helping out, that is a sacrifice.

The higher ranks who have been around for awhile with past experience should be sitting before the highest ranked competitors.

Respectfully,

Gary



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Gary S.

[gmattson]

In kata judging, unless all three judges are using the same standards, a single person can skew the results in such a way that the other two judges vote don't really count! with 5 judges, the high and low get thrown out, but again, at least three of the judges must be scoring on the same range. Now if you had those three skilled judges, the other two (high and low scorers) would not be necessary.

With kumite, the best officiated tournament I ever ran, was with Jhoon Rhee acting as the sole official in the ring. My reasoning was that a single, skilled person will see as much as 5 officials. . . when 3 officials must agree on a point!

Think about it. . .

The operative word is "skilled" official.

In the real world, having 5 officials give the participants and spectators a sense of confidence in what is going on, which is very important.

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GEM