Uechi-Ryu.com

Discussion Area
It is currently Tue Jul 22, 2014 9:18 am

All times are UTC




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 27 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2
Author Message
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Dec 10, 2005 5:10 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Mar 11, 1999 6:01 am
Posts: 17068
Location: Richmond, VA --- Louisville, KY
Meta

You're going to have to do a step better than Quackwatch. It's a great place to start, but it's hardly a definitive source.

What you and many others don't realize is that many of the studies these "anti alternative" fanatics cite are poorly done. To wit...
Quote:
CONCLUSION: Documented characterization of herbal supplements in published randomized controlled trials is inadequate. Investigators may be unaware of the extent to which herbal quality-control issues may detract from the value of otherwise well-designed clinical trials. The scientific and clinical utility of future herbal randomized controlled trials would be enhanced if authors provided evidence that the herbal products studied were of high quality.
Lack of herbal supplement characterization in published randomized controlled trials.

Wolsko PM, Solondz DK, Phillips RS, Schachter SC, Eisenberg DM.

Am J Med. 2005 Oct;118(10):1087-93


I keep telling this to people again, and again, and again. There's very poor regulation in the supplement industry. Unless you are purchasing from a quality company that regularly has its products tested by an independent lab, you are throwing your money down the bloody toilet.

You would think that The Ivory Tower would know better. But I see crappy studies making it into the peer-reviewd literature all the time. A smart researcher knows to look at the methods section to see whether or not the I's are dotted and T's are crossed.

You railed against saw palmetto. You'd be surprised at the volume of supportive literature on it already. And I'm talking quality, peer reviewed journals.

There are 3 accepted "drug" treatments of BPH (Benign prostatic hyperplasia)

1) 5alpha-reductase inhibitors. This would include finasteride, commonly sold as Proscar. Lower concentrations of finasteride are sold to men to slow down or prevent male pattern baldness.

2) alpha1-adrenergic antagonists. Flowmax is the common on. As you can see, it works by an entirely different mechanism.

3) Herbal remedies such as saw palmetto and pygeum. Of all the herbal medicines sold in health food stores, saw palmetto is one of the superstars. It works, and is the standard of care in Europe. But you need to get a standardized extract (tested so you get a known amount of the active ingredient) and you need to purchase it from a company which regularly has its products tested for purity and potency.

Here are a few citations to whet your appetite. The jury is still out. It will remain out for a while. And why? What's in it for a major drug company to fund such a study, Meta? Think about it. Why sabotage a cash cow? It is in the interest of the pharmaceutical companies to suppress such studies.

It's going to take academia using government (NIH) funds to sort it out. But that will happen eventually. Meanwhile, you'll have to go to European medical journals to sort out the truth today.
Quote:
Urologe A. 2005 May;44(5):513-20.

Phytotherapy for BPS. Which products can still be prescribed?

[Article in German]

Madersbacher S, Schatzl G, Brossner C, Dreikorn K.

Abteilung fur Urologie und Andrologie, Donauspital, Wien, Osterreich. stephan.madersbacher@wienkav.at

For decades, plant extracts have been amongst to the most popular drugs for lower urinary tract symptoms (LUTS) due to benign prostatic hyperplasia (BPH)/benign prostatic enlargement (BPE). Only a few of the many published studies meet the criteria of the WHO-BPH consensus conference. The few placebo-controlled, long-term (>/=6 months) studies suggest a positive effect of some extracts (saw palmetto, beta-sitosterol, urtica, rye-grass, saw palmetto/urtica combination) on LUTS; an effect on uroflow, post-void residual volume, prostate volume and PSA was not consistently demonstrable. Randomised trials against an active comparator (alpha1-blocker, 5alpha-reductase inhibitors) are difficult to interpret. Due to the lack of prospective studies, several meta-analyses have been published that can not, however, replace prospective studies. None of the BPH-guidelines currently recommend plant extracts, yet universally conclude that this is an interesting approach. Further prospective studies using WHO standards are required to reliably determine the role of such extracts in the management of elderly men with LUTS due to BPH/BPE.

Quote:
Aging Male. 2004 Jun;7(2):155-69

Preventing diseases of the prostate in the elderly using hormones and nutriceuticals.

Comhaire F, Mahmoud A.

Ghent University Hospital, Gent, Belgium.

The prostate has only one function, namely to secrete fluid containing substances that are needed for reproduction. This requires an extremely high concentration of androgens in the tissues. Benign prostatic hypertrophy (BPH) seems to be related to the long-term exposure of the prostate to the strong androgen 5alpha-dihydrotestosterone (DHT) and, possibly, to estrogens. The relation between prostate cancer and androgens is suggested to be U-shaped, with both extremes of androgen concentrations being associated with increased risk of invasive cancer. In the treatment of patients with BPH, the lipidic liposterolic extracts of Serenoa repens were as effective as the pharmaceutical inhibitors of the 5alpha-reductase enzyme or alpha1-adrenergic blockers in relieving urinary symptoms. In addition to moderately inhibiting the 5alpha-reductase activity, Serenoa seems to exert anti-inflammatory and complementary cellular actions with beneficial effects on the prostate. Unlike the pharmaceutical 5alpha-reductase inhibitors, finasteride and dutasteride, Serenoa does not suppress serum PSA, facilitating the follow-up and the early detection of prostate cancer. We suggest a strategy to prevent prostate cancer that aims at providing men with partial androgen deficiency correct testosterone substitution with a sustained release buccal bio-adhesive tablet. In addition, food supplementation with extracts of Serenoa repens and a combination of the antioxidants selenium, (cis)-lycopene and natural vitamin E, together with fish oil rich in long-chain polyunsaturated essential fatty acids of the omega-3 group seems warranted. Clearly, a holistic approach including careful clinical and biological monitoring of the aging man and his prostate remains mandatory.


- Bill


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Dec 10, 2005 7:20 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Mar 11, 1999 6:01 am
Posts: 3754
Location: Richmond, VA
Quote:
people flock to chiropractors etc because it works.


It sure works for me.

:wink: Rich

_________________
Member of the world's premier gun club, the USMC!


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Dec 10, 2005 8:02 pm 
Offline

Joined: Mon Oct 04, 2004 7:45 pm
Posts: 350
As I do medical rotations in ACGME and JACHO approved hospitals I am pleased to see the number of board certified specialists who recommend glucosamine, saw palmetto, policosanol and other nutritional products for health conditions from high cholesterol to arthritis. Its great - gee, must be some good lobbying ...bwahahahahahahahahahaha


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Dec 12, 2005 4:06 pm 
The link between quackery and Chiropractics, one only need to go here for a simple explanation, although thousands other examples exist:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chiropractic_medicine

I defer to the educated reader to draw their own conclusions on what makes logical sense.

It should be noted that:

1. The information which was cited on Stephen Barrett's issues were from sites which are run by his detractors. This is hardly unbiased on their part. Besides, quacks such as the ones listed via the links have a vested interest to silence anyone who dares question their lunacy, in the form of lost their lost "bilked" consumer revenue. (And loss of cult followers as well.)

2. The logic and critical thinking community, and as such the work done at sites such as quackwatch, are hardly the works of only one person, and as well, whether or not the allegations are true are not of little import.
What is being used is clearly what is known as a logical fallacy, (In this case attacking the person rather than the data which is called "Ad Hominem")
More info on these devices here:
http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/

3.This is what the AMA says about "alternative medicine":

http://www.ama-assn.org/ama/pub/category/13638.html


Particularly, Chiropractics:
(snip)
Chiropractic

As with many systems in alternative medicine, chiropractic holds that the innate ability of the body to heal itself can be optimized by achieving a "balance"; that proper function of the nervous system is key to this homeostasis; that "subluxations" of the spine and misalignment of joints impinge on nerves, causing imbalance in internal systems; and that manual release of these structural and functional joint pathologies can heal a number of conditions, and prevent illness as well.12

The theories behind chiropractic have been widely criticized. A 1968 study by the US Department of Health, Education, and Welfare concluded that chiropractic schools did not prepare students to adequately diagnose and treat patients, and recommended that their services not be covered under Medicare.2,12 In 1972, Congress added Medicare benefits for "manual manipulation of the spine to correct a subluxation demonstrated to exist on x-ray." In 1974 the Council on Chiropractic Education was recognized to accredit schools of chiropractic, despite the absence of clear evidence of efficacy of chiropractic therapy.12 Over the years, both political pressure and consumer acceptance has won lincensure for chiropractic in all 50 states. Most of the nation's 45,000 chiropractors bill Medicare for services rendered, amounting to $181 million in 1990.12 Most third-party payors accept claims from chiropractors.

Manipulation has been shown to have a reasonably good degree of efficacy in ameliorating back pain, headache, and similar musculoskeletal complaints,13 and some chiropractors limit their practices to these conditions. While precise statistics are not available, a majority of chiropractors adhere to the method’s original theories, and continue to claim that chiropractic manipulation cures disease rather than simply relieving symptoms. (Personal communication, Denny Futch DC, Vice President, National Association of Chiropractic Medicine). They promote manipulation as useful in a host of conditions, ranging from infectious diseases to immune therapy, even claiming to prevent future conditions from occurring (even if years away) including menstrual irregularity, difficulty giving birth, and cancer.12 Chiropractors commonly provide advice in nutrition and other preventive practices, and maintain that a regular series of "adjustments" is needed by most persons to maintain optimal health.

************************************

One should note that I never said I had a problem with S.M.T. itself when used by A.M.A. approved guidelines for legitimate, scientifically established purposes, but rather my issue is with all of the other "benefits" of Chiropractics", which are simply, and purely, and obviously, egregiously fallacious in nature.
Or, is the A.M.A. in on the "BIG CONSPIRACY" too?

It was placed upon me a challenge to disprove the so-called other "benefits" of chiropractics, however I would argue, that it is not for I to disprove, but rather for believers of "alternative medicine" to prove that their claims are correct.
As Carl Sagan famously said: " Extra-ordinary claims require extra-ordinary proof.
I will even take this a step further:
Are you aware that if the claims are true, you personally could win a million dollar prize?

The James Randi foundation offers just such a challenge:

http://www.randi.org/research/index.html


Here is a link to some other interesting info:
http://tinyurl.com/d2emq

For lazy people like me, the second link goes here:

chiropractic:
The American Medical Association has referred to chiropractic as “an irrational, unscientific approach to disease causation.” Originated in 1895 by one Daniel David Palmer, it was made into a thriving trade by his son, B.J. Palmer. The major claim of the art is that “subluxations” (misalignments of the spinal column) cause illnesses.
The various schools of chiropractic differ in what they claim can be cured by manipulating the spine, some having almost no limit (asthma, bacterial and viral infections, migraine, cancer, AIDS), while others are satisfied to relieve muscle spasms——for which such massage is probably beneficial. Some obviously renegade chiropractors sell their patients on “color therapy” in which applied kinesiology is used to determine the victim's sensitivity to specific colors, and they also use “polarity reversal” in which magnets are used to change the “bioenergy” field of the body. Both systems are perfect examples of expensive quackery, having no basis whatsoever in fact.
Chiropractors have been known to bruise and sometimes more gravely injure their customers, but often these people go right back to receive more at the hands of the operator, seeming not to learn from experience. Chiropractors are fond of pointing out that regular MDs are far from perfect, a fact that in no way validates what they themselves are doing and that appears to be only a method of misdirecting the attention of the detractor.
While there doubtless is some value to chiropractic in respect to massage relief of strains and muscle spasms, statements made by chiropractors include such howlers as specifying that a subluxation of the sixth dorsal vertebra brings about diphtheria. Such a notion is another classic example of quackery.
But having your back rubbed does feel good, and the pops produced by being flexed and stretched do sound impressive.

********************************************

Lastly,
I'd like to point out that your post attacked me preemptively, even though you do not even know me, nor have we interacted previously, This is usually considered bad form in most social circles. While, this obviously shows that you are passionate about your chosen beliefs, it does not exactly facilitate the "spirit of open dialogue" which I believe is at the heart of this forum.
I would ask that we concentrate on the discussion at hand, and less on an interpersonal exchange.

Until then, I welcome any spirited debate.


Top
  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Dec 12, 2005 4:09 pm 
Bruise* Lee wrote:
...bwahahahahahahahahahaha

8O


Top
  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Dec 12, 2005 4:12 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Fri Nov 04, 2005 4:54 pm
Posts: 1205
By the way *Guest* was me..
Oops.
:oops:

_________________
There's a bit of Metablade in all of us.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Dec 12, 2005 4:15 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Fri Nov 04, 2005 4:54 pm
Posts: 1205
RACastanet wrote:
Quote:
people flock to chiropractors etc because it works.


It sure works for me.

:wink: Rich


Which part? The S.M.T. part, or the color therapy, applied kinesiology,“polarity reversal”, or the “bioenergy therapy part?"

_________________
There's a bit of Metablade in all of us.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Dec 12, 2005 4:24 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Fri Nov 04, 2005 4:54 pm
Posts: 1205
Bill Glasheen wrote:
Meta

You're going to have to do a step better than Quackwatch. It's a great place to start, but it's hardly a definitive source.


Meta: I never touted it as such.
In fact, I clearly wrote that it's a great way to *Begin* one's search.

Bill Glasheen wrote:
What you and many others don't realize is that many of the studies these "anti alternative" fanatics cite are poorly done.


Meta: Right. It's all a big conspiracy.
Ad Hominem, Bill.
Again.
(Besides, Germans love David Hasslehoff. What do *they* know?)

LOL
:lol:

BTW, I'll admit that the Jury on Saw Palmetto isn't out yet, so until then, I'll keep and open mind. However, what I won't do is be someone's guinea pig.

_________________
There's a bit of Metablade in all of us.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Dec 13, 2005 4:36 am 
More about Barrett

http://www.bolenreport.net/archives/who ... ese_so.htm

http://www.foundationforhealthchoice.co ... arett.html


Top
  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Dec 13, 2005 6:06 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Fri Nov 04, 2005 4:54 pm
Posts: 1205
"I've noticed,
(pulls pensively on pipe.)..that people love to pursue Ad Hominem as much as they love to beg the question." (Myself often included)

I feel compelled to point out yet again:

1. The links posted are from Mr. Barretts' detractors.
(In this case) supplement mongers, and Chiropractors of questionable character.
But once again, the messenger is moot.
However, if one bothers to perform some unbiased research, you may find that the claims reported are not necessarily accurate.

I invite readers to peruse the other side (some would say the correct side) of the tale, specifically with respect to this issue, as told by Stephen Barrett:

http://www.quackwatch.org/11Ind/bolen.html


Though the argument of his personal issues itself is really beyond the scope of this thread, I'd rather to differ to more rational heads regarding the matter.
In any event, It is the message which is of import.

Rather, since it is obvious that more information is desired:

http://www.ncahf.org/

http://www.acsh.org/

http://www.healthwatcher.net/index.html

http://www.fda.gov/

http://www.acahf.org.au/

And the list goes on, but this should do for the time being.

Now *where* did I misplace that blasted smoking jacket...

_________________
There's a bit of Metablade in all of us.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Alternative Medicine
PostPosted: Mon Jan 09, 2006 5:49 pm 
With all due respect Metablade,

The term alternative medicine, is referring to legitimate medical "options" to conventional Western medicine. Western medicine being considered conventional simply because it is the most well known form of medical treatment in Western culture.You are certainly entitled to your opinion, but the fact that you appear to be an intelligent assertive highly opinated person might possibly deter some one who may be curious but less assertive and in need of medical help from investigating other effective methods of treatment.

T.R. Joiner


Top
  
 
 Post subject: Re: Alternative Medicine
PostPosted: Mon Jan 09, 2006 6:35 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Fri Nov 04, 2005 4:54 pm
Posts: 1205
T.R. Joiner wrote:
With all due respect Metablade,

The term alternative medicine, is referring to legitimate medical "options" to conventional Western medicine. Western medicine being considered conventional simply because it is the most well known form of medical treatment in Western culture.You are certainly entitled to your opinion, but the fact that you appear to be an intelligent assertive highly opinated person might possibly deter some one who may be curious but less assertive and in need of medical help from investigating other effective methods of treatment.

T.R. Joiner


I will assert to agree with you, but with an important caveat:
What and which are we talking about specifically in terms of "effective methods of treatment?" And how effective, if at all?
Should a person just assume that all "Alternatives" are legitimate?
Part of the lacking in my arguments lies with what I feel is too broad a generalization.
Perhaps we can have a dialogue on a specific treatment in order to narrow the scope?

_________________
There's a bit of Metablade in all of us.


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 27 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2

All times are UTC


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group