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I will incur a little bit of public and private wrath for that statement.
Given the responses of several on this thread, one could say that I also possess the gift of clairvoyance.
In all seriousness, sometimes we moderators make strong and - heaven forbid - opinionated statements in the interest of drawing out key issues on a topic. My apologies in advance for any that take things personally. In the case of folks like Heather, she knows better,
and will dish it right back.
Sorry about the time break in the thread; I enjoyed my holiday weekend.
Now, I will attempt to address questions raised by this thread. <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote
i have a friend who studied medicine,but later became a lawyer. i asked him about pressure points and he didnt seem that keen,and said that you could find them yourself
I agree that you can find them yourself. This was the original Shaolin paradigm from which Dim Mak, kyusho, tuite, etc. evolved. The Shaolin monk learned medicine and the limited understanding of human anatomy/physiology of the time. From this knowledge base, one can both heal and do harm. Any decent modern physician can figure out where and how to strike or manipulate someone to do harm. Better yet, ask a forensic pathologist. <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote
the only one he showed me was the carotid synus? strike to the neck, i saw richard mooney do that at a seminar and i wasnt all that impresse
A blow to the carotid sinus doesn't always result in a knockout. Apparently one is more vulnerable to that with age. There are actual case histories of older men knocking themselves out while using an electric shaver on the neck. But again, these are rare cases. The average person is rendered slightly less effective with a blow strictly to the sinus (for complex reasons, as the sinus contains both baroreceptors and chemoreceptors). But if you hit the neck hard enough, the whole body becomes a pressure point.
The truth is that with a hard strike to the neck, you get force leakage to other vital areas like the brain stem and other "mission control" areas of the brain.
Speaking as a systems physiologist, the response of the body to various strikes at certain points depends a lot on the "initial conditions." A good mathematician understands what I mean when I say that. The body is complex, and its response to stimuli can be quite complex.
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is this pressure point stuff worth looking into? and also is it dangerous, i mean could you accidentally hit the wrong place and kill or permanantly hurt someone? surely the medical profession must know a good deal about this type of thing?
In my humble opinion, it is worth looking into, but don't invest all your time, effort, and money on it. It's one small piece of the big martial picture. Yes, it is dangerous, as are all of martial arts. Yes, we can accidentally kill someone, with or without any knowledge of pressure point fighting. Not too long ago, a college student at UVa was killed in an intramural lacrosse game when he was accidentally hit in the chest with the butt of a stick. Can you say
commotio cordis? It's dumb luck from an offensive point of view, but bad luck if you happen to be the victim. That's why we should have chest protectors on young kids when they spar.
As I often tell my students, training in the dojo is like working in a laboratory. We are dealing with dangerous tools, and we must handle with care at all times.
asianmaster
Welcome to the forum. It's always great to get more bright people as yourself involved in martial discussion.
I take your post very seriously. With that in mind, please take my responses to your comments and questions in the spirit in which they are intended.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Mr. Glasheen:
...Working with Dr. Kelly, I have both seen and learned a great deal, and am adamant about defending his title and integrity as a physician, and a dim mak instructor.
Just curious...your posts seem to imply that you are a physician? What is your background? I see you are a medical researcher. If in medicine, have you not had an opportunity to work with DOs?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> I take your post very seriously, but yet find it very revealing.
Let me start by giving you a few details. I have a doctorate in biomedical engineering, with a specialty in an area called systems physiology. If you look in a book (several volume) like Medical Physiology (edited by Mountcastle), it will tell you a little bit about my field, what we are trained to do, and how we approach complex research problems in medicine and physiology. It's basically physiology, mathematics, and engineering wrapped together. I did some epidemiology work for my masters degree, and published some papers in that venue. I spent time during and after my Ph.D. training doing basic coronary physiology research while on the faculty of the division of cardiology at UVa until 1992. For the last ten years, I have been doing health services research for a name-brand insurance company. These days I spend most of my time with predictive modeling to study cost trends, medical outcomes, patients' propensity to consume, and physicians' propensity to treat.
Yes, I am somewhat familiar with DOs. We do standard economic and basic outcomes profiling of them in our heathplan, and pool them with other primary care specialties. If I personally knew a good one I'd go see one, and I say that with all sincerity. As an educated athlete that married an NP/bodybuilder, I have pretty special requirements when it comes to healthcare. You and the DO profession should appreciate that more than many medical specialties.
As you know, there are the good, the bad, and the ugly in ALL walks of life.
If medicine and the healthcare system were perfect today, I'd be out of a job. And if I could do my job without help, my boss would be out of a job.
I have dan ranking in three martial arts systems, and dabble in others. I've been at this martial business for about three decades.
With that in mind, I find it fascinating how others have freely used the titles "master" and "Dr.," whereas I am referred to as "Mr. Glasheen." Why is it that I am entitled to both those titles (I have the credentials), but people refer to me as "Bill?" Why do others insist on the use of those titles (take a look at your post and other posts)? In fact...the only time I ever insist on being called "Dr. Glasheen" (I earned it, and have more years of education than most physicians) is when I am sitting across the table from some UNRULY physicians (thankfully these a-holes are in the minority) engaged in a pi$$ing contest. Once we all get over the posturing and saber rattling, then real work gets done. This is why I hate titles. Sorry...that's me. It gets in the way of doing real work. It stamps what comes after with a mark of authenticity and veracity that isn't always deserved.
I am a student of the Missouri (show me) school. I am a student of the randomized, controlled trial. I don't take thing for granted because someone with a title or a degree said so. The education and training are useful tools for attacking issues, but putting them front and center stage is confusing the moon for the finger pointing to it. I cannot possibly be offending you or your friend more than I would myself by having this attitude, because I expect as much of myself. <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote
Dr. Kelly as also been generous enough to take of his time to educate his fellow co-workers about both the art of dim-mak and osteopathic medicine, both of which have made quite an impression on those of us who were naive to either topic.
Check around this website. You will find many highly educated professionals giving their time and effort for the love of the art.
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I had a few thoughts about the comments you made about Dr. Kelly's book.
I have not (yet) read his book. I was just dissing his website, the same way a restaurant critic nit-picks at a meal. I DID order his book. I'm obviously open-minded enough to see what he has to say. <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote
Dr. Kelly happens to be a perfect example of a fine, educated, humane doctor whose care for his patients is only enhanced by his osteopathic training, as evidenced by patient satisfaction and relief post-manipulation. I have spent much time observing his practice and technique, and have only been impressed by his outstanding clinical acumen and medical prowess.
I am glad there are such people practicing medicine.
I will however comment that there are a number of questions I asked that never got answered. For instance what is the relationship of Earl Montaigue to any and all of the 3 parties involved? Just curious. Sorry...I always read my food labels.
Thank you all for your posts and your commentary. Keep it coming!
- Bill
[This message has been edited by Bill Glasheen (edited May 28, 2002).]