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PostPosted: Thu Aug 19, 1999 4:59 am 
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Location: Victoria BC
My name is Sochin and I'm fairly new to this forum tho I've been known to post on some of the others.

My karate training is Shotokan, Shorin-ji Ryu (Butoku Kai), also Arnis and Bagua Zhang, but in this context I want to tell everyone that I wrote a book I called Canadian law: Self Defence and the Martial Artist.

Since the Canadian Criminal code is federal and the same for all provinces, the research was easy. I studied the crimainal code and the annotations by Edward Greenspan, following up on his references. I went right back into the appeal court case files to see how the court's interpreted the law - it is only at the appeal court level or higher that a judges decision carries the weight of law. I included a short precis of these cases in each section to explain how the judge was thinking and how the decision impacted upon the martial artist.

I did my last revision spring of 98 after all the changes to the criminal code from fall of 97 came through. If any Canadians post here, well, here I am!

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The Fighting Old Man


[This message has been edited by Sochin (edited 08-19-99).]


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 19, 1999 7:17 am 
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Joined: Fri Sep 25, 1998 6:01 am
Posts: 181
Location: Sacramento, California, USA
Sochin:

Promote away. In California, we have the guy who advertises as the "Dog Bite Attorney" and the one who advertises as the "Motorcycle Atrorney." I suppose if you were here, you could the "Karate Counsel" and we could see you for all our martial arts related legal needs. (Could be a lucrative market nich.) But the biggest question I have for you, is how in the world did you ever figure out what the judges were thinking from their decisions. Maybe its just because I am in the U.S. 9th Circuit, but if you can figure what this bunch is thinking from reading their opinions, you're not only a legal genius, you're psychic.

Peace
Robb in Sacramento


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 25, 1999 8:44 pm 
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Location: Halifax, NS Canada
Sochin...very bored today (seems that everything shuts down in the US at turkey time - including the forums). Came upon this thread and wondered how I would get a copy of your book. Is it stocked in bookstores across Canada, would it involve a special order and what are we talking here for price? (also ISBN please). As one who works in the legal profession, is a practitioner of "the arts", and given the current discussion on Van's forum regarding Kathy Long, it looks like it could prove to be an interesting read.

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 26, 1999 12:28 am 
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Location: Victoria BC
Mary S,

I couldn't find a publisher because the scope of the market was too narrow -martial artists interested in the law, so I bought a binding machine and self publish...no ISBN. I sell it for $18.95 Cdn plus $5 for shipping in Canada so a money order of $23.95 gets one! I'm on my 3d revision, 1995 & 7 were big years for changes in the Criminal Code...

I am not a lawyer but I am a good researcher.

Right now I need a Cdn lawyer who knows waiver language and is interested in a martial arts application to offset the vicariaous liability of someone suing a student and going after me because I taught him. I don't think I've ever met a lawyer who trains, come to think of it.
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Ted Truscott
3672 Happy Valley Rd.,
Victoria BC, V9C 3X1

ttruscott@pacificcoast.net

[This message has been edited by Sochin (edited 11-25-99).]


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 27, 1999 2:54 am 
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Sochin:

HJK in BladeForums is a lawyer from Ontario. His e-mail address is not listed in his profile, but perhaps you can post a thread on that forum to get his attention.

I practice in the States; sorry.


student


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 02, 1999 5:07 am 
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Posts: 81
That is a really good question. Say you teach a student the worlds most deadly move - and he uses it on the next guy to ask him what time it is. How can an instructor reduce the risk that he willb e caught in the vicious chain of events.
Some may remember a looooooong time ago when James Mitose (the lineage that brought about Ed Parker and American Kenpo) went to Fulsom. He had a student of his Kosho Shorei Kempo that killed a guy. At the trial an attorney asked Mitose if he (Mitose) was responsible for his student killing the man. Mitose being very traditional said yes he was responsible (meaning he as a teacher felt he was responsible in the sense that he should have trained his student better in Bushido, turning the other cheek etc). As a result Mitose served a sentence for murder - although he did not do it, did not order it, did not encourage it. He simply had a student who lost control and killed a guy.
When would liability run out. If you taught someone 20 years previously and they put the big thump on someone - yikes.


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 02, 1999 1:45 pm 
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Location: Mount Dora, Florida
Scary, isn't it! And how about the student who thinks he is well trained and invincible! Then he gets beat up in a bar brawl and decided to sues his teacher.

We really shouldn't be telling the lawyers all this. . .

On a lighter note, back in 1963, our dojo sent 50 students to Chicago to participate in Count Dante's (and the world's) first world championships! It was a huge event, but as expected,terribly run. Lots of controversy, with certain students from the Count's dojo reappearing in other rings after losing earlier! It was fun though, to be part of what was to become a major part of karate's growth and focus.

Anyway, a couple of my students (Van Canna for one) did very well, in spite of the home course advantage for the "Count's" people. However, one of my brown belts, who lost, walked into my office following the trip, saying he was leaving my dojo and Uechi-ryu. The reason for his departure was that he lost the tournament! If I was the best teacher, how could he have lost the tournament!!!

This person went to Japan and studied another style for a few weeks, returned and opened a dojo teaching that system! Guess what? He made a hard and fast rule that none of his students could compete in tournaments!

Well, at least he didn't sue me!

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GEM


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 02, 1999 6:02 pm 
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Esteemed Senseis:

Do you conduct classes about the appropriate levels of force? Do you use written materials? Do you test on it? Do you have them correct their mistakes; again, in writing? Do you keep those written tests and corrections as proof that you did instruct your students how to behave correctly and if the student messes up, it is not your teaching that is at fault?

Do you have local prosecutors/defenders lecture your classes? Do you know your own jurisdiction's rules on self defense, weapons, force, physical injury, deadly force, serious physical injury, duty to retreat?

Why or why not? Do you encourage your students to get into fights to test their abilities?

Why or why not?

Do you believe that any or all of this should be part of the curriculum? Why or why not?

Would you like help? (OhmiGhod, am I actually volunteering? [gulp])


student, JD (meaning Juris Doctor, NOT posing as Dr. X....)

And, if you want a lecture given at summer camp, and I can get a scholarship....

[This message has been edited by student (edited 12-02-99).]

[This message has been edited by student (edited 12-02-99).]


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 02, 1999 7:03 pm 
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Location: Victoria BC
All excellent ideas, student, I've actually been told to document every single move I teach and put it into a sylabus and to never deviate from the sylabus 1 iota so what I teach will never be open to misinterpretation. So far I haven't been able to get myself to do this even to cover my skinny...

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Ted T.
The Fighting Old Man


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 02, 1999 7:30 pm 
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Hey, Ted!

Were you able to reach HJK; if so, was he able to help?

student


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 02, 1999 8:36 pm 
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Location: Victoria BC
No, I sent out a line but no bite yet - maybe I gotta get a bit more direct...

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Ted T.
The Fighting Old Man


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 02, 1999 10:09 pm 
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Student JD (not the doctor X),
Would you be willing for a very nominal fee be willing to create a small booklet on reasonable force (with a small written test)? I would like something to document that I have made the efforts to teach them not to beat up people left and right.
I myself think you can worry these things into the ground. And I also believe (sort of metaphysically) that the more you worry about something the more likely it is to happen. But I would like to have something to show that I am not training natural born killers.


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 03, 1999 10:52 am 
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Lee:

Where do you teach? I suspect a booklet would have to be tailored to the specific jurisdiction.

Your posts about Senseis Hill, DeFelice, Sacharnowski and Hill are illuminating, thank you.

Student


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PostPosted: Sat Dec 04, 1999 5:32 am 
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Location: Victoria BC
Bruised Lee, that is what the lawyer is for - to help me not 'give legal advice' for a fee, (the dojo fees) while I take care of business. The booklet & the test are in my head soon to come out!

It is a lot easier here in Canada as our criminal code is federal and applies to the whole country!

------------------
Ted T.
The Fighting Old Man


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