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 Post subject: The unarmed thug
PostPosted: Sat Feb 24, 2001 11:54 pm 
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Joined: Thu Mar 11, 1999 6:01 am
Posts: 30130
You are properly licensed and carry a concealed gun.

You are faced with an unarmed, but aggressive thug, same size and weight as you,who wants to use aggressive [non lethal force]in taking away your watch and wallet.

Do you allow him to search you and find your gun, hoping he will just take it and let you live?

Do you put up an unarmed resistance ? But what if you lose and he finds the gun on you and decides to shoot you with it?

Do you draw your gun on the unarmed assailant and threaten him with lethal force to stop his progress?



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Van Canna


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 Post subject: The unarmed thug
PostPosted: Sun Feb 25, 2001 1:23 pm 
I think one of the sweetest things that can happen to a person is that the gun misfires when he pulls the trigger.

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Allen Moulton from Uechi-ryu Etcetera


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 Post subject: The unarmed thug
PostPosted: Mon Feb 26, 2001 1:39 pm 
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Joined: Tue Feb 20, 2001 6:01 am
Posts: 51
Location: Climax, MI U.S.A.
"Do you allow him to search you and find your gun, hoping he will just take it and let you live?"

If I were going to let him have the wallet, I'd simply give to him. Allowing him to search my person would be out of the question.

"Do you put up an unarmed resistance ? But what if you lose and he finds the gun on you and decides to shoot you with it?"

Too risky, IMHO. If you're carrying a firearm, I don't think it's wise to get involved in what could be a grappling situation.

" Do you draw your gun on the unarmed assailant and threaten him with lethal force to stop his progress?"

This would be my choice, personally. Most people see a gun, they start walking. If he charges you, I believe you have a responsibility to NOT allow your firearm to fall into the possession of an obvious criminal, and place your own life and others at risk. I don't know how that stands legally, but...

[/B][/QUOTE]


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 Post subject: The unarmed thug
PostPosted: Mon Feb 26, 2001 8:30 pm 
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Joined: Mon Nov 20, 2000 6:01 am
Posts: 493
Location: Framingham, MA USA
Van, sensei

You do not establish the facts concerning what the aggresive conduct consisted of and these would be quite important to establish the defense of drawing and/or using the gun.

The same rule of use of lethal force or the use of a dangerous weapon evolves around the degree hostility and the reasonable believe of the defendant in the use of first action using deadly force or offensive first strike, which takes the case from first assault into the category of reasonable defense.

Assuming the BG is threatening and menacing, and assuming he isn't closing the gap at the time; and further assuming that he announces his motive being robbery, toss him the wallet and keep the distance. If he advances and you back up, draw, hold and warn. I know that most won't agree with this, but if you must shoot, go for the leg or thigh. As an MA the shot, although it might not have put the man down, would give you the chance to retreat if you could, or at least avoid his unarmed onslaught, and keep you from being tried for at least manslaughter.

When a gun is used, be prepared to face the 12 in a jury, and just maybe it's better than being carried by six pall bearers, a choice non of likes to think about.

Alan K

So I do agree with the post already made, that is essentially what I just said.

Alan K


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 Post subject: The unarmed thug
PostPosted: Mon Feb 26, 2001 9:28 pm 
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Joined: Wed May 17, 2000 6:01 am
Posts: 2813
Location: Massachusetts
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Van Canna:
You are properly licensed and carry a concealed gun.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Un-huh... Image

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote
Quote:
You are faced with an unarmed, but aggressive thug, same size and weight as you,who wants to use aggressive (non lethal force) in taking away your watch and wallet.


I'll qualify "aggressive" as meaning that the perp has shown that (s)he can and will use violence to get my belongings... so basically we're talking about a violent robber... a "mugger".

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote
Quote:
Do you allow him to search you and find your gun, hoping he will just take it and let you live?


ROTFLMAO!!! Now, that is a funny thought!

Ummmm, sorry... Image ... I mean, Absolutely NOT!

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote
Quote:
Do you put up an unarmed resistance ? But what if you lose and he finds the gun on you and decides to shoot you with it?


First, living in condition "yellow", the perp wouldn't be too close to begin with. Second, I'd escalate at this point to condition "orange" and tell the perp that I will defend myself, I will not be a willing victim, and that (s)he has a choice to make... leave or get physical, which I feel is putting me in danger of death or grave bodily harm.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote
Quote:
Do you draw your gun on the unarmed assailant and threaten him with lethal force to stop his progress?


Anything other than the perp leaving means I draw... period. A continuation of advancement toward me or my loved ones after I draw on the perp who's made their intentions to harm us known means I fire... period.

I'll deal with the 12 jurors later. I won't end up in a hospital bed because of hesitation and I won't automatically assume that I can take the perp in a hand-to-hand battle. Perhaps the perp is unarmed, perhaps the perp has a knife, perhaps the perp is a trained martial artist that could kick Chuck Norris's @$$... Those aren't chances I'm willing to take. The certain thing at that point is that the perp has stated intentions to get violent and has moved to act on those intentions. That's more than enough for me to know that the violence is imminent.


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