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 Post subject: Legal Self Defense
PostPosted: Fri Nov 09, 2001 4:11 pm 
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Joined: Fri Nov 09, 2001 6:01 am
Posts: 15
Location: Ft Laud FL
I've been reading the the posts regarding civil/criminal repercussions of a self defense situationn and its a debate that has been going on a long time in many incarnations. To be certain in todays court of law it seems that the odds may be stacked against those of us who are trained to and willing to defend our lives, in a best cas escenario it would be a crap shoot. But my point here is that we all try to seek out the very best training, techniques and concepts to defend our precious lives and that of our loved ones. Yet the legal areana is a very different battlefield. How many of us have researched, found and put on retainer a defense attorney in case we ever find ourselves in this situation? It may be one of the few things we can do to prepare for what happenns after we defend ourselves.
Any Thoughts? Tuite...aka Ryukyu


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 Post subject: Legal Self Defense
PostPosted: Fri Nov 09, 2001 6:02 pm 
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Joined: Mon Nov 08, 1999 6:01 am
Posts: 1070
And where do you find such legal eagles?

Your dojo/dojang/gym/kwoon might be a good start.

The local police or sheriff's department probably have a list of attorneys for the department personnel who get embroiled in self-defense issues. The LEO unions will, certainly.

Former prosecutors and/or public defenders.

Having one come by and lecture your class about the state of the law of self-defense, battery, homicide, etc. in your jurisdiction just makes all sorts of sense to me; I've done it several times. I'm in the process of getting ready to take the CCDW course in my state and the teacher has told me that he recommends to all of the students that they find an attorney now, before things get out of hand.

Think I'll bring a lot of my business cards to class. Image

student


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 Post subject: Legal Self Defense
PostPosted: Fri Nov 09, 2001 8:10 pm 
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Joined: Mon Jul 24, 2000 6:01 am
Posts: 270
Location: Washington, DC
I think somebody else on this forum posted somewhere that if an altercation ends up with you standing and the bad guy dead then you only say one thing over and over to the police until your attourney comes

"I don't know what a happend, I was afraid for my life."

And just keep saying that until you get counsel.

thoughts?
Dana


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 Post subject: Legal Self Defense
PostPosted: Fri Nov 09, 2001 9:06 pm 
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Joined: Fri Nov 09, 2001 6:01 am
Posts: 12
Location: Vancouver, BC, Canada Eh
I would suggest that you shouldn't say anything about the event at all. Be polite and professional. Give your name and personal info if you wish, but ask for your lawyer immediately. This should be done even if you are 100% justified in your use of force.

Do not give any statement until you have had time to discuss your situation with counsel.

Statements like "I didn't know what happened" may come back to haunt you later.

------------------
Steve


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 Post subject: Legal Self Defense
PostPosted: Sat Nov 10, 2001 4:10 am 
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Joined: Thu Mar 11, 1999 6:01 am
Posts: 30404
Agree with Steve.

A State trooper friend of mine suggests saying this :

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote
Quote:
I am the victim. I was in fear of being killed, and I defended myself.I will provide more details after I speak to my attorney.


Then shut up, and use your thumb and forefinger to keep your runaway lips in check
during the mind games that follow to make you talk.

Also, tell the police that you are not feeling well [ you probably will not anyway _ might have been hit/cut etc.], and you want an ambulance. This will buy you time away from the relentless police pressure to make you talk.

As Bram indicates, in the aftermath, you will have a hard time shaking that feeling of "persona non grata"



------------------
Van Canna


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 Post subject: Legal Self Defense
PostPosted: Sat Nov 10, 2001 5:37 am 
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Joined: Tue Feb 15, 2000 6:01 am
Posts: 75
Never travel without an atty in your pocket.You never know when a friendly barrister might just be the perfect self-defense move...

Battle one is on the field or street.
Battle two is in the court..pick one..civil or criminal or worst case BOTH!
Battle three is in the court of public opinion...
Battle four is living with the outcome...

see ya
Bram


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 Post subject: Legal Self Defense
PostPosted: Wed Nov 14, 2001 8:07 pm 
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Joined: Tue Feb 15, 2000 6:01 am
Posts: 75
gads.. I hope I got that password right..

"Do you know what happened?"
" I was in fear for my life. I was attacked."
" Do you remember what happened in the altercation?"
" No..I 'm not sure, I was in fear for my life"...
"But what happened??"
" I already told you..I was attacked and I was in fear for my life...I can't say any more..."

If the key phrase written down and its an obvious one..of "I was in fear for my life"..thats the statement given to the prosecuter, investigation team and all involved...
Then later that WILL come out that all you could say after the event was' I was in fear for my life..

If you weren't in fear for your life lots of self defense is mitigated...
we live in a strange world,,
The BG has more freedom than the good guy..for the BG has no fear of reprecussion of the actions taken..

One can defend one's life and still lose one's freedom as the result..
A very sad state of affairs..


see ya
bram


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 Post subject: Legal Self Defense
PostPosted: Wed Nov 14, 2001 10:06 pm 
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Joined: Wed May 09, 2001 6:01 am
Posts: 986
Location: Chicago, IL USA
It also helps to have a witness. When I was jumped on an El train back in the early 70's, the motorman closed his door and got on the radio while I was dealing with my attackers.

Needless to say, I was extremely lucky and walked away from the event, but, as the cops boarded the train, they tried to slap me up against the wall, thinking that I was the perp.

The motorman came out of his hidey-hole, pointed at me and said, "Not him! He's the VICTIM!" They then proceeded to gather up my attackers and cart them off to durance vile.

I was VERY lucky that day. One of them had a knife. It wound up stuck through a significant portion of my Statistics for the Behavioral Sciences textbook.

Having someone who witnessed the incident come forward for you in a BIG help in staying out of trouble. Never leave home without one!

Respectfully,

Lee Darrow, C.Ht.

PS - I got an A on the exam I had been on my way to take. Simply for surviving the attack, according to the Department Head at the college. I told him I would have rather taken the (*&%#@^ test. He laughed and nodded. LD


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 Post subject: Legal Self Defense
PostPosted: Tue Nov 20, 2001 6:13 pm 
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Joined: Mon Nov 20, 2000 6:01 am
Posts: 493
Location: Framingham, MA USA
I have been writing posts concerning self-defense on the Martial Arts & the Law forum and in other forums for several months.

In Massachusetts and many other jurisdictions the ability to assert self-defense in a court of law is not a right; it must be earned.

The facts viewed by a fact trier (judge or jury) must have enough evidence to warrant a "not guilty" finding. If the defendant, through either his own evidence presented or through evidence developed by the prosecution, can make out a prima facie case of self defense, as a matter of law, if believed by the judge or jury, then he has the right to assert that defense but must then prove his case. His right to plead is not automatic.

When you are confronted with the aftermath of a defense of your life or limb, my advise is to volunteer nothing at all, and if questioned reply that you are too upset to speak, and will not do so without the presence of counsel. I have no doubt that you will be co-erced by such expression as "well all I want is a few simple questions which you can answer if you have nothing to hide".

It is the LEO's job to cajole you and you can't blame he or she who must no initiate an investigation.

As I recently posted in conjunction with a question from Van Canna, sensei, unless the facts justify that you are seized (detained or don't have the right to walk away) then those little conversations you have may be used against you, without you first having been advised of your Miranda rights.

I once read an article in Black Belt about a scenario in which a karate sensei was attacked at a lounge where he had a couple of beers after closing the dojo for the night.

The author explored the complex facts as we do in these forums, but I have never forgot his closing advise that, "It is better to face a jury of 12, then to be carried out by 6 pall bearers"

Alan K

------------------
"The Goddess of Justice is Blind"


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 Post subject: Legal Self Defense
PostPosted: Mon Dec 03, 2001 4:33 am 
Here is an excerpt from a handout I give to my Karate students and during my Woman's (Teenager's) Persoanl Safety program on "Legal and Moral Responsibilities of Self Defence":

What to do after a violent incident occurs:

You have defended yourself. The perpetrator is now lying at your feet and no longer a threat or perhaps even seriously injured or dead. Now what?


The first question is do you leave?

Strictly for your own personal safety I must say YES. You have undergone an unprovoked attack. You have no way to know who may now come along and what dangers you may yet encounter. Often the attack has been planned to happen in an area that lends itself to having Privacy and Control over the intended target. This is NOT a safe place to be. This is not running from the authorities, this is making sure you are not subject to another unprovoked assault.

If you have the option of leaving, do you report it?

There is a responsibility to report any crime. Not reporting the assault may allow the perpetrator to twist the truth and the story. Reporting it may get medical help to the perpetrator if they need it. Reporting it may prevent the perpetrator from harming others. Reporting it may place you in danger from the perpetrator's or his friends. This is a moral question that I leave to each individual.

You cannot, or did not leave, and are now dealing with the authorities. What now?

From a personal safety stand point and this includes safety from criminal charges and personal litigation you should take the following course.

Advise the peace officer that:

1) You were the subject of an unprovoked assault. It must be clear that YOU are the victim of the assault. Let those emotions that show you were the one attack come out (tears, fear etc.)

2) You thought the perpetrator of the assault meant cause you death or grievous bodily injury with his unprovoked attack upon you.

3) That while you want to cooperate fully, you are very traumatized by this event and cannot rationally say anything more at this time.

4) Advise the peace officer that you will give a full statement when you have recovered from this tragic ordeal.

5) Do not say anything else and consult a lawyer (one trained in criminal law and assault cases).

It is not that you do not want to cooperate.

I previously mentioned that after the successful defense you will feel a rush of exhilaration. You will tend to have verbal babble. All that you say must be considered by the police officer, everything that you say!



Example:


¨ You (a woman) are approached by two men in a parkade. They close in on you telling you what brutal things they intend to do to you and how they intend to dispose of your body. When they grab you, your reaction to the assault causes one death and grievous bodily harm to the other aggressor.

¨ When talking to the peace officer, you are pumped that you have survived an attempt to brutally rape and kill you. You go on and on about how you did just what you practiced every night at the dojo. You say how great it feels to have done it (meaning lived through this violent assault upon your life).

¨ The peace officers dutifully record this. This is their duty and responsibility.

¨ The perpetrators have their own story: they were only asking for directions, a light, spare change, simply walking past you etc. Remember these are criminals they will lie!

¨ It is sadly a male dominated legal system that often fails to recognize the violence that any sexual assault represents.

¨ The authorities conclude that you wanted to try out your dojo death tricks and used excessive force. The perpetrators, or the families of the deceased, sue you for wrongfully causing the death of their loved ones.

¨ It is NOT that you do not what to cooperate, you simply what an accurate account to be given of what happened.


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 Post subject: Legal Self Defense
PostPosted: Mon Dec 03, 2001 10:25 pm 
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Joined: Wed May 09, 2001 6:01 am
Posts: 986
Location: Chicago, IL USA
Rick Wilson-sama,

Excellent post!

I always advised my students, male and female that, in the aftermath of an attack, they should insist on being taken to a hospital immidiately. "Just get me to a hospital" should be a mantra repeated over and over again - even if you do not think you have been hurt.

The possibility exists that you HAVE been hurt and are unaware of the injury or injuries and being checked by a professional is a must.

Also, have the cops call someone for you - family, friend, business associate and have THEM get your lawyer - RIGHT AWAY!

Say nothing more than "get me to the hospital," and "I was in fear for my life," and "I'm too upset to talk now - please don't ask me anything until I'm sure I'm okay."

By making this request, you are putting your physical and emotional welfare squarely on the shoulders of the LEO on site. If you have to get hysterical about it, go ahead - it probably won't be much of a reach as the chemical cocktail's after effects are probably already kicking in.

Expect that you might barf and tell the officer that. I know that I have after EVERY real life confrontation I have ever had. It's a normal reaction to extreme stress.

Telling them that you are about to lose your lunch will help hasten your delivery to the hospital and stall their interrogation. Cops like to keep their shoes clean of people's last meals - trust me on that!

"Get me to a hospital - I think I'm hurt."
"I was afraid they were going to kill me."
"I think I'm gonna throw up."
"I can't even think about it right now - just get me to the hospital!"
"Call (so-and-so) I'm going to need someone there for me." (then get them to call your lawyer)

Variations on these themes will get you to a place where you will more likely have an attorney present to keep you from making any serious mistakes in your statement and will insure that you are physically okay as well.

Respectfully,

Lee Darrow, C.Ht. (Sandan, ret. sort of)


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 Post subject: Legal Self Defense
PostPosted: Mon Dec 10, 2001 4:54 am 
Lee:

I really like the "Get me to a hospital."

Placing the LEO in charge of your welfare may very well place YOU as the victim in their minds -- excellent.

Thanks,

Rick


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 Post subject: Legal Self Defense
PostPosted: Mon Dec 10, 2001 10:01 pm 
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Joined: Mon Nov 20, 2000 6:01 am
Posts: 493
Location: Framingham, MA USA
Good point Lee with reference to being injured and unaware of it.

I recall that when President Reagan was shot,
the secret service agent that hustled him into the limo also ran his hands around the President and discovered that Reagan had been shot with an entry near or under the arm pit, and that advance knowledge radio relay to the hospital probably saved his life.


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 Post subject: Legal Self Defense
PostPosted: Tue Dec 11, 2001 5:09 am 
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Joined: Wed May 09, 2001 6:01 am
Posts: 986
Location: Chicago, IL USA
Thanks, Rick.

I learned a long time ago that, if you make a good case for your own welfare, the cops will generally do what they can for you, even if you don't seem to be hurt.

When you get right down to it, this is not a ploy, either. In the heat of a fight, one can take injury and not be aware of it, just as in a car accident, soft tissue damage may occur and be masked by the chemical cocktail for several hours (up to a day or two in some cases - I speak from experience).

No matter how well you might have done in the fracas - GET CHECKED OUT is something that should be tattooed inside the eyelids of every person who ever gets into a serious altercation.

Again, thanks for the support.

Respectfully,

Lee Darrow, C.Ht. (Sandan, ret, sort of)

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Rick Wilson:
Lee:

I really like the "Get me to a hospital."

Placing the LEO in charge of your welfare may very well place YOU as the victim in their minds -- excellent.

Thanks,

Rick
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


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 Post subject: Legal Self Defense
PostPosted: Sun Apr 28, 2002 11:05 pm 
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Joined: Sat Dec 12, 1998 6:01 am
Posts: 1688
Location: Weymouth, MA US of A
Maybe having a talk with the Psychiatrist On-Call at the hospital might be helpful as well, as to state of mind.

Maybe?

Gene


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