A different view from the front

Paul_C · Post by **Paul_C** » Wed Oct 06, 2004 2:52 pm

You don't have to like where the letters come from. But the perspective it revels is non-the less important.

http://www.commondreams.org/views04/1005-22.htm

Paul_C

Bill Glasheen · Post by **Bill Glasheen** » Wed Oct 06, 2004 4:09 pm

Comments:

1) Michael Moore has no credibility. Once you demonstrate a pattern of deception, distortion, and fraud, then everything produced by you is suspect. Sorry...that's my standard. Anyone in my field who does what he did cannot be published any more and loses their career.

Find a better source for your letters and I will read them. Otherwise you might as well make stuff up yourself - just like Michael does.

2) War *****. People die. That's the idea.

Just because we show up in uniform with pretty weapon systems doesn't mean the enemy can't have a vote in the matter. They get to shoot at you too. And they can - and will - do it when you are outside the safety of your armored tanks and behind the cockpit of your Atari-like weapon systems. Anyone thinking otherwise should never have signed up.

This particular enemy also could give a rat's a$$ about the Geneva convention. They can and will kidnap civilians and cut their heads off on video for show. They will fire at us, and hide in the mosques. They will station themselves in civilian population areas - risking the lives of the women and children in their own population. Then they'll get al Jazeera and el Arabia to film the consequences of them being shot at.

*****, doesn't it?

War means people get killed. Civilians too! But don't worry - the Iraqis are used to that. Ethnic cleansing was SOP before we came over.

3) Our troops literally are going through hell. That's their job, and they are getting combat pay to do it. And like my great grandfather who fought in The Union Army at age 14 after escaping the Irish potato famine, to many it's an opportunity for improvement that they might not otherwise have "back home."

I've provided multiple sources from books and publications in the literature documenting the psychological effects of combat. They will experience fear, pain, anger, depression, and ultimately even physical symptoms from their exposure to and participation in killing.

Meanwhile, our job is NOT to exploit them for our own selfish gains. Our job is to listen, understand, and support them. Our job is not to judge what they say, but to help them work through their difficulties.

I challenge Michael Moore to go to Iraq and spend time amongst the grunts. Those that now know how he demeaned and exploited them for his film might have something to say to him.

- Bill

RACastanet · Post by **RACastanet** » Wed Oct 06, 2004 5:34 pm

Bill: I hope to have a couple of active duty Marines join us for a Uechi workout soon, maybe this Saturday. They have been in Afghanistan and Iraq. They are not officers but NCOs (corporal, sargent). Ask them what they think and report it on this thread.

Training and mindset may have something to do with their attitudes. I have yet to hear a Marine 'bitch' about Iraq.

Rich

Paul_C · Post by **Paul_C** » Wed Oct 06, 2004 6:39 pm

Find a better source for your letters and I will read them. Otherwise you might as well make stuff up yourself - just like Michael does.

It amazes me you actually have the gull to comment on something you didn't even bother to read. But that’s your prerogative. I'll take your comments with a grain of salt

I am sure there are plenty of letters from Iraq that state things are better then the Democrats paint it out. But I think it's important to keep things in this reality. These letters paint a picture that is far different then what Bush and Cheney want us to believe (John Edwards Vice Presidential debate). Even several news organizations don't want to show this side.

Is it because of political reasons or does the show of low moral support the enemy? Either way is it right to keep civilians in the dark?

cxt · Post by **cxt** » Wed Oct 06, 2004 7:06 pm

Paul C

I did read them.

I read his books---used t be a big fan of Moore.

Thing is that I am pretty much convienced that Moore's work is chock full of spins, distortions, and outright lies.

The dude pulled a header from a letter to the editior, then RE-WROTE the header, THEN CLAIMED IT WAS IN FACT A HEADLINE FROM AN ARTICLE WRITTEN BY A SPECIFIC NEWSPAPER--ON THE FRONT PAGE NO-LESS.

So in the absence of any kind of checkable attibution or support that these letters are in fact legit--I will reserve judgement on thier being "real."

Moore just has NO cred with me any longer.

Plus--got to say it--war is and has always been a terrible activity.

Soldiers have been getting the nasty end of the stick since day one.

(most of my family served-grandparents on down)

You want scary--show me a war where you DON'T get letters like the ones shown.

Or better yet--take some time and read thu letters penned by service men and women in WW1--WW2--Korea- Vietnam.

Look at what the German and Russian said about the lack of equipment etc.

Sad, but not all that weird that a soldier would feel that way.

I would also ask that you read some of the lettes, articles and interviews posted by soldiers currently serving that don't have the same outlook.

Plus this is not a "different" view of the war--its the same, old, Iraq is a failure, drumbeat that the media has been pounding out for a year or so.

And it ignores any shred of positive actions and results.

Thats not "different" thats bias.

RACastanet · Post by **RACastanet** » Wed Oct 06, 2004 7:41 pm

I read the letters as well, and Like I said a few notes above, I am not getting that kind of input from my Marines, officers or enlisted. I believe what I am getting face to face is correct and it is not doom and gloom.

Likewise my family suffered big time in WW2. One cousin was shot down over Germany and died in a POW camp. Another was killed Christmas 1944 during the 'Battle of the Bulge'. Plus, I have a shoebox of my dad's vmail letters to home. He was in the war for 30 months, starting in North Africa, heading to Sicily for that invasion, and then to Anzio for that invasion.

That theater of operation was horrible, and the invasion of Anzio was met head on by Hitler's crack 'Herman Goering' division, not the Italians. Reading the letters, there is never a single bad thought, just hopes to get home soon.

Rich

benzocaine · Post by **benzocaine** » Wed Oct 06, 2004 8:47 pm

Training and mindset may have something to do with their attitudes. I have yet to hear a Marine 'bitch' about Iraq.

Marines don't bitch about anything do they? No matter how much the situation sux.

Bill Glasheen · Post by **Bill Glasheen** » Wed Oct 06, 2004 9:27 pm

Paul

I read all the letters on the thread. Absolutely nothing surprises me. My only problem is the source. Because Moore is discredited, it isn't worth treating anything on there as factual. As a matter of fact, there is absolutely nothing stopping someone from e-penning a false letter to the site, right? What's the process of verification? None. What's Moore's reputation? None. Too bad...

These letters paint a picture that is far different then what Bush and Cheney want us to believe.

First, I don't believe the source.

Second, that statement has no basis in fact. I just told you war is hell. Cxt just told you war is hell. Rich just told you war is hell. Bush repeated God knows how many times in the debate that the situation in Iraq was difficult. I just gave you a synopsis of Grossman's work, as well as that of a recent article appearing in The New England Journal of Medicine. So, what is anybody hiding? What do Bush and Cheney want us to believe? What do you believe?

I sure wish I could have told that to Edwards last night. Oh and by the way, you stole his line. How about a little originality next time?

You, sir, are spewing political propaganda. You are wasting all our time.

Meanwhile, these men - if they are real - need help. What are you doing other than using their pain as fodder for your political wishes? I don't view that as a very honorable activity.

They would be better served if - as I did in the 1970s - you took the time to listen to and write such servicemen, one by one. Are you going to waste your time yapping at us or are you going to show some true empathy and help these gentlemen? All it takes is one pen pal, and you have done your duty. All it takes is bringing one veteran to a bar and letting him/her chat on your tab.

My own great grandfather had many unpleasant stories to tell of his experiences serving with The Union Army as well as for the U.S. Government on the western frontier. He was bitter. The funny thing about it all is that few people believed him until some of his stories started appearing as plot lines in Death Valley Days. Even Dances with Wolves seemed eerily familiar to me. But the greater family embraced him just the same. And because of the military, he survived starvation in Ireland and lived long enough to have my grandmother. I'm thankful for that.

But it wasn't a pleasant journey.

So, what part of war and killing do you not understand?

- Bill

RACastanet · Post by **RACastanet** » Wed Oct 06, 2004 9:28 pm

Ben said: "Marines don't bitch about anything do they? No matter how much the situation sux."

That is a fair statement. However, I have heard an occasional less than flattering remark about MREs, the 9mm Beretta, and the low availability of the M14.

But, they train under such harsh conditions they are prepared for just about anything.

Just do not ever bad mouth the Corps unless you are a Marine. Or, unless you are in the mood for a little jiyu kumite.

Rich

benzocaine · Post by **benzocaine** » Thu Oct 07, 2004 6:42 am

Just do not ever bad mouth the Corps unless you are a Marine. Or, unless you are in the mood for a little jiyu kumite.

You won't find me bad mouthing the Corps. Not because I'm afraid of them though. I'd bad mouth them no more than I'd bad mouth the coast gaurd.. who BTW are doing a fine job protecting our ports and saving people's lives every day.

All our people in uniform deserve our support and respect.

I admit though, that I feel a sadness for them. They are stretched pretty darn thin lately, and we still might have to do something about Iran

Also if you thought you could finish when your enlistment ran out.."oops sorry buddy, you need to serve longer.. remember the fine print than said we can call you up again ..well you've been called". Yes, they knew this could happen when they enlisted, but take my cousin for instance. He got into the army reserves for the free college. He's found out it definitely wasn't free. He spent 1 year in Afganistan, and will probably be in Iraq soon. He's 22 now I beleive. Will he live to be 25? They have to bear 90 % of the casualties in Iraq while our ever so elequent president went before the UN a few weeks ago and defiantly scolded them for not jumping into the invasion of Iraq with us. Gee ya think they'll wanna help any time soon?? Man!

How about a little diplomacy and a little less John Wayne George?

Bill Glasheen · Post by **Bill Glasheen** » Thu Oct 07, 2004 8:48 am

Diplomacy does no good, Ben. Again, France and Germany repeatedly have said they would not participate, no matter who was president. It takes the air out of the Kerry/Edwards campaign mantra.

It's our mess. We stepped in, and we fix it. The Europeans lost their payola, and they want us to suffer. C'est la guerre!

Yes, reserves took their chances and got their free educations. They happen to be in a generation where the contract they signed must be cashed in. It *****!

But we support the troops regardless. We tell them we are proud of them no matter whom they want for president and whom they love or hate.

Best wishes for your cousin. May he come home safe, richer (with combat pay), wiser, and stronger.

- Bill

benzocaine · Post by **benzocaine** » Thu Oct 07, 2004 1:44 pm

It's our mess. We stepped in, and we fix it. The Europeans lost their payola, and they want us to suffer. C'est la guerre!

What's C'est la guerre mean?

As far as the mess goes France and Germany offered to help rebuild. We wouldn't let them. I guess we were punishing them for the French German companys that did business with Iraq during the time we had sanctions in place.

Unfortunately we've discovered some American corporations did the same thing as well

Bill Glasheen · Post by **Bill Glasheen** » Thu Oct 07, 2004 2:19 pm

C'est la vie! means That's life! Most folks throw that expression around in the English language, and pretty much understand meaning and context.

C'est la guerre! literally means That's war! It is a play on the former expression. We would say That's life in all contexts, but the French might use the latter expression in situations where things didn't turn out quite so well or there was conflict involved.

In this case, it is both literally and figuratively meaningful.

Hope that helps.

Sometimes I surprise myself in how much French I still remember. Once upon a time I learned enough to be able to speak it conversationally. Not bad for an engineer. But like all such things, you forget lots when you don't use it. I've never had a burning desire to go to France or to Quebec. For the life of me, I don't know why I chose French. Spanish or German would have been much more useful.

My one year of Japanese though has been the most useful language training to date. Ya think?

- Bill

Panther · Post by **Panther** » Thu Oct 07, 2004 2:23 pm

"C'est la guerre!"

It's French meaning, "That's War!"

On having the chips cashed in for those who signed up for the free education, but not the actual shooting...

My brother-in-law (he's in VA, Bill

) is USAF... His wife is USAF... He flew figher-bombers for years, then was assigned to the Pentagon. He retired in winter of 2000... On 9/11/01, that plane went into the Pentagon right where his former office was. He lost friends there. His wife had gone from active to reserves when he retired in 2000 and was working private sector on 9/11. They were both back full-time USAF by the end of 2001. Called back in? Hell no... THEY called in and said where do we report. They've both been overseas since this started... right now, they're back, but they went. And he isn't a young fella anymore he's over 50, but he went anyway. She's younger and went also. BOTH of their sons are in and both have been deployed... Another brother-in-law just got back in country from somewhere... he's part of one of those units that works on "special" problems, so he's not allowed to discuss where he's been or what he's been up to. One of the calmest, most peaceful men I've ever met. I've watched him play with the young kids during holidays and then seen the cold stare when some BS comes on TV such as the crap Michael Moore spews. Right after 9/11, I volunteered personally to work armed, undercover security for a Federal installation. I did it because I was called and asked if I could help because the person knew my background and that I knew tactics and firearms. I didn't hesitate, I went. When I was old enough to go into the military, VietNam was over and when I went down to sign-up, my Daddy told me that he'd fought so I wouldn't have to. He wanted me to go to college. We weren't at war and he said I didn't need the military to put discipline into me because I already had that from other things. But when there was a need and I was asked, I went. It wasn't overseas, but after 9/11 it was pretty tense even doing Federal security here. A car shows up where it isn't supposed to be and gets left there and at that point you're not thinking that the driver just needed to double park for a minute. Regardless, it was short-term for me, but even at my ancient age, I was asked because of my skillset, so I went. My point is that no matter how much we complain about the way things are going (politically, economically, internationally) there are those who go where they're needed, when they're needed and those who will just continue to complain and toss out their verbal diarreha...

Paul_C · Post by **Paul_C** » Thu Oct 07, 2004 2:33 pm

Bill

I’m glad you read the letters. In your previous post it left me with an impression that you did not. So I will apologize for the gall comment

And thank you for letting me know that war is hell and that people actually die in war I never knew that before, quite an eye opener. Ok enough of the sarcasm.

I know people die in war and terrible things happen which is why a nation has the responsibility not to be so cavalier in deciding to go to war. I think we can all agree to that. A solider losing his life for a just cause is a terrible tragedy, but some believe honorable one. A solider losing his life because of someone else’s political aspirations is just a terrible waste. I feel this war is a war of opportunity and calling the situation “difficult” down plays their (the people actually fighting it) true sacrifice. If people feel the war is legitimate then what they see on the news is understandable, even though I feel the press isn’t doing their job of investigation anymore CBS case in point. But if there are people out there like myself who feel the war is a waste of time and money, then letters like these, if you believe them, make the war that much more outrageous.

I sure wish I could have told that to Edwards last night. Oh and by the way, you stole his line. How about a little originality next time?

If Edwards said that I wasn’t aware of it. But if that’s true I’ll add an endnote to the line.

You, sir, are spewing political propaganda. You are wasting all our time

Propaganda (according to dictionary.com)
1. Material disseminated by the advocates or opponents of a doctrine or cause: wartime propaganda.
2. Propaganda Roman Catholic Church. A division of the Roman Curia that has authority in the matter of preaching the gospel, of establishing the Church in non-Christian countries, and of administering Church missions in territories where there is no properly organized hierarchy.

Since I have no association with the Roman Catholic Church and am not spreading the gospel. I’ll just comment on #1.
According to the definition, anything said either positive or negative about a political topic, in this case the war in Iraq is propaganda. Including your own statements on other threads. Stop using propaganda as a dirty word. Anyone who has an opinion on something and speaks their mind is spreading, or as you put it, spewing propaganda. Get over it.
Actually you do make a good point about starting a pen pal with someone in Iraq. I’ll do that, and if he or she will let me I’ll post it. Though you’ll have to take my word for the authenticity of the letter.
Though I don’t agree with you that the least we can do is buy a solider a beer and listen to what they have to say. I think the least we can do is try to bring them home safe, and if that means by making noise and protesting then so be it. When the war is over and they are home I’ll have that beer with them, and they can bitch at me for not supporting the war.
Paul