Reverse Engineering Seisan

[wolfeyes23]

Greetings –Dana san, when you said

In keeping with my other post on Uechi Symbolism - once you do three of something identically you're representing the 10,000 things. So three bushiken strikes can easily represent the infinity of bushiken strikes it takes to put uke to the floor.

this is the same as the idea of advancing, advance to destroy the enemy , keep advancing as
long as you can, do not lose the initiative , finish him.

If you put this together with taking into account Uke’s reactions we may end up with something like this,
Take the first movement of Seisan, there is a low double strike to the hip region, what would this do ?
cause Uke to bend forward and most likely try to grab you and hang on to you, so you stay to the inside
and move to classic chudan kamae , uke, now releases his left hand and tries to reach your face or lapel,
you retract you hand as he extends his, staying to the inside of his movement, he has extended his hand
away from his torso while you have chambered your hand to strike, (hands meet void sudden entry),
you strike him, as his left hand retracts he tries the same movement with the right hand, same response,
stay to the inside, as his hand moves toward you, your hand chambers and quickly strikes,
you could repeat this indefinitely, but essentially you are allowing uke to create openings for you to strike,
his movement is driving your response.

So far you have struck one side of his body, and then the other, while advancing
You now strike the back side, then the center straight up (and down).

This may follow another group of precepts, which basically is based on six, ( but, can be expanded
do to high middle and low) , consider yourself as a sphere , how can you be attacked ?
(or attack another) , from the front , from the back, the right , left, straight down,
straight up. This is a classic formula for kumite and can bee seen in the Uechi-ryu kumite,
(I think ? Hmmm maybe another topic for you).

since you are not actually a sphere but shaped more like a stick , you must also be conscious of high middle and low defense and attack to the four directions .

The seisan sequence basically starts striking low, then middle to the Right and left,
from behind (striking behind the head ) , then center, rising and dropping ( the three strikes)
then straight up from below (knee),
in this attacking sequence you have varied all your targets,
and covered all your bases.
If you wonder about the downward strike, might I suggest that movements can be used in both directions, so after the striking behind the head, and pulling the opponent forward and down , into the three strikes up the middle that these strikes can be used coming down
as well as driving up, You could grab his hair and pull his head down, and strike the back
of the head, or keep him from tackling you driving down with the stirkes, and leading
his head to your rising knee, or you could be driving his head back and kneeing the groin.
It really all depends what uke does, and do you use the upward or downward movement.

If uke tries to move up and away he gets the rising strikes, if he attempts to move in and tackle he gets downward strikes, either way you control the center, and you
bring his head or groin to your knee.


anyway, quite a beautiful sequence IMO in terms of training, Think about it attack and defense, in six directions and three heights, look at kata and kumite and I think you will see 10,000 variations of these
same movements and techniques, if you distill these 10,000 to their essence, you have a sequence like that found in seisan, again, just a casual marveling
at the beauty of the form.

Romney^..^

[Dana Sheets]

these strikes can be used coming down as well as driving up, You could grab his hair and pull his head down, and strike the back of the head, or keep him from tackling you driving down with the stirkes, and leading his head to your rising knee, or you could be driving his head back and kneeing the groin. It really all depends what uke does, and do you use the upward or downward movement.

Forward, or reverse - are very important ideas when considering the use of the kata movmements. Some movements seem to lend themselves to this ides better thant others.

I'm still not 100% sold on the idea that the folks who put these forms together meant for any move to be used anywhere at any time.

When I create a television program that is intended to teach something I have to start with the question "what is the goal". The goal will then define the audience, content, and approach.

In the same way McCarthy's paradigm asks the question - what is the point? This question is asked of each series of movements - each model/hsing/kata.

[Dana Sheets]

Series 10 = 3 Sanchin strikes

If I have my modern Uechi history correct - this series used to be shown in Seisan Bunkai as a takedown against kick/punch combination but was removed when too many people were getting dumped on their heads.

This is another part of the kata where I scratch my head and go ...wha?

West, South, North.

I have to review the thread but I think Laird already posted video the of the takedown.

[CANDANeh]

The takedown is still used in NS dojo`s and I can`t see any more potential danger than any other application. Takedown in Dan kumite far worse if not properly trained (trust me on that one )
Anyway, I think the takedown was put in as a filler and the 3 thrust as a center to the kata and allows regrounding before moving on ??(the takedown not related to the 3 thrust). But you know the three thrust sequence brings you around 180 degrees as well as the takedown which is interesting. The takedown uses blading, reverse wauke (palm facing down) and the opening foot movements of Konchin (as in Hojo Undo) to place the Uke on the floor to receive a shoken after the spiral decent to floor.

[Dana Sheets]

I wish I could sit here and say that I've had a big "aha" about this move using McCarthy's model of models. But I haven't.

So I have to say that this seems to be a repeat of the "repeating" theme. Three bushikens, three sanchin strikes, three nukites. Bread and butter stuff that seems to be indicated to do on both left and right sides. Three being the harmonious number for infinity.

Now there's a nice throw you can do by circle blocking (around & under) a round house punch, stepping in front of uke's front leg and shooting the nukite under the shoulder. But that doesn't look much like this three in row series.

[Dana Sheets]

So - some folks have already talked about this series.

Really there are three parts:

sinking forward into a moderately low stance with an arm motion "prepping for the jump"

shifting your stance from one leg to the other while coming to the highest stance in Uechi while splitting the hands - one high one low "jumping back"
shifting your stance. [Heard tell that this posture used to be more bladed until the advent of cameras which let to the more squared off camera-friendly look.]

shifting your stance forward again from one leg to another back to the low stance this time changing palms Uechi style with a circle block and prepping for an elbow strike. [Here's where some people include a front kick before you jump.]

Now my favorite application of this series is against a knee or short front leg kick. It turns this series into a throw where you dump uke on their neck. I learned it from Tom Everett, a godan under Patrick McCarthy. The knee strike being one of the Habitual Acts of Physical Violence (HAPV.)

Other thoughts?

[2Green]

...just one:

Q: How do you block a knee strike?

A: You don't.

BTW, I've found this thread very informative and useful as I approach Seisan; it has given me quite a few things to keep in mind as I begin to learn it.
Very helpful. And, thank you.

NM

[Dana Sheets]

Thanks Neil.

And from personal experience - sometimes knee strikes miss. Then you've got an opportunity to scoop up that leg and use it for part of your lever.

[Dana Sheets]

Series 13 = elbow, shoken, backfist

This particular elbow, shoken, backfist series is of interest because is happens after the dramatic jump.

Was there a "hidden kick" to set up this series? We'll never know for sure...

what I do know is that the teachers I trained with in Okinawa were very clear that the backfist should not extend out too far. In fact it's alot more about dropping the elbow down that pushing the backfist out - there's where you get more power AND you can think about applying the downward elbow movement as a strike to the uke's arm and the backfist as a defense against the head flopping into yours.

Anyway - enough for a friday.

We've got tickets to Cirque du Soleil tonight!!!