Are Kanei Uechi's 5 Kata Really Uechi? What's Uechi?

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Dana Sheets
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Are Kanei Uechi's 5 Kata Really Uechi? What's Uechi?

Post by Dana Sheets »

So I've got this question in my head. The five "bridge" kata developed by Kanei Uechi with input from 10-15 seniors represent fundamental principles in Uechi. Seichin kata also has a few that aren't seen anywhere else. The Okikukai folks have even come up with a 9th kata - Ryuko - that has some distinct moments of what I would call eclectic influence and definitely shows some fighting principles seen nowhere else in Uechi.

Do we really need those five (six) other kata? Is Uechi a complete stand-up system with only the Big Three? Is Uechi a complete system with only the Big Eight (Nine)? What is a complete system anyway?

I find, that I spend the most time on the Big Three, Seichin, and the first three movements of Seiryu. (I don't yet know Ryuko - though I've seen it done.) Do other folks have areas of Uechi they're particularly drawn to? Are there things in Uechi you would or have thrown away?

And don't worry about upsetting anyone...it'll just be between you and me...:wink:
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Bill Glasheen
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Post by Bill Glasheen »

Oh OK Dana. Good thing nobody is listening...

To me, the short answer is that the five additional kata teach you how to view the original three. It's all in those three kata, but the additional five show you that there's nothing sacred about the specific timing and sequencing. It shows you variations on the "grammar" of the system. They are a bit of a Rosetta stone to the big three.

To me, you haven't yet arrived until you can start choreographing your own little dittes that don't violate the principles (as opposed to the specifics) of the original three. And the more you can do that w/o thinking and on the spot, then the closer you are to being a "Uechi fighter."

- Bill
Stryke

Post by Stryke »

Interesting topic , and one Ive thought about alot , from my style perspective ....

Ive just made the decision to cut my kata list drastically Ive gone from 20 something kata to 7 , and really then i`m only working on 4 at the moment .

and the reason being is that i feel I find all the applications and principles of the style in these base kata .

Add to that The Uechi big three and i`m planning long term on having a collection of 10 .

Enough kata IMHO to keep anyone busy .

though i have a feeling it`ll be a while before I get the confidence to tackle sanseiru
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diegoz_ar
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¿Ryuko?

Post by diegoz_ar »

I think I have seen this kata performed in Shorin-ryu. Dana: do you know if this Ryuko is the same one from shorin-ryu style?

Saludos,
Diego
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Dana Sheets
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Post by Dana Sheets »

Diego,

No - it isn't the same as the shorin kata. This is a kata developed by a board of several Okikukai seniors over the past...well, at least the past 7 years and probably longer.

The kata is longer than sanseiryu and contains many familiar uechi elements. However there are also moments that are not seen anywhere else in the Uechi kata and different parts of the form seem to have distinct influences. So in that respect it reflects Uechi as a blend of various chinese boxing styles.

To give you an idea of the length - an article in our Frienship Tour material by Sensei Shigeru Takamiyagi has the following list:
Kata & Number of Technique Groups
Sanchin 3
Kanshiwa 5-6
Kanshu 5-6
Seichin 7-8
Seisan 7-8
Seiryu 6-7
Kanchin 5-6
Sanseiryu 9-10
Ryuko 27-28
Whether or not you agree with his groupings you can see that Ryuko is considered by him to have almost three times the content of Sanseiryu.

I saw the kata performed in Okinawa in April during our International Women's Festival of Martial Arts during the Women's Friendship Tour by Sensei Hatsuko Machita. Like sanseiryu a good portion of the kata is spend in lowered or transition stances. There are some parts that remind me of Goju-ryu, some remind me of Shorin-ryu, some feel like parts of Seisan with a kobudo influence, some feel like Sanseiryu and some feel like Chinese/Okinawan fighting. I don't think the kata is available yet online - and I don't know if there are any US teachers teaching this form.

And yes - this does add to the perennial question of how much variety of material do you need to train a system.
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Bill Glasheen
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Post by Bill Glasheen »

Aha!

It appears that the Okikukai group were in search of their own suparinpei. This would be reflected in the length, which is roughly 3 times the length of sanseiryu (3 x 36 = 108).

I think any choreography effort is good. I applaud their accomplishment, no matter the motives or the reception. Whether or not it "sticks" is another story.

With the Fuzhou suparinpei that I teach, I find very few have the mental and/or physical constitution to take it on. It's a major project, when, in the words of the late Ahti Kaend, "I've got students who still f*** up Kashiwa!" :lol:

Any idea who teaches and/or practices the form, Dana? Is this their "secret sauce" that the group saves for the inner circle? ;)

- Bill
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Dana Sheets
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Post by Dana Sheets »

huh, thought I posted a reply couple days ago but it disappeared.

http://www.pittsfielddojo.com/student_news.html

Connie & Mark Flynn seem to know it according to the article - though I don't know them. I'd imagine that many folks will learn it over the next five years since it's been officially adopted by the Okikukai board in Okinawa.

Mayhap that someone at the regional on Saturday will know someone in the area that knows it.

Dana
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Rick Wilson

Post by Rick Wilson »

Dana:

Sorry I have missed this thread for a little while.

This is a timely thread for me because last week I went through the connectivity of the Uechi kata and what the additional Kata added to the circle.

The important thing is to look at Uechi Kata on a circle and not a hierarchy.

Every Kata adds a next step and that step is circled back to Sanchin and then cycles through the rest of the Kata.

This is important and brings in a teaching element that Robb mentioned on another thread on Bill’s forum that the student’s performance of Uechi Ryu evolves as they learn. You cannot learn to do Uechi Ryu like you will in ten years on the first day.

So, every time a Kata is added it evolves your performance. The Kata are set in a particular order and I know they have sifted around before but this one sets out a logic for me.

Let me give you a small taste of what I mean.

Sanchin: The foundation. If you have your feet and elbows in the right spot to begin with, then good for you. While Sanchin has all the principles you need to fight, and therefore it can be a “fighting” Kata, I do not believe that is its broader intent.

Kanshiwa: The first complete “fighting” form. When you begin this is a very Tiger Kata and brings out the Tiger in the system.

So the Tiger goes back into Sanchin and Sanchin evolves. More principles appear.

Kanshu: This is a very aggressive Kata and has a very powerful tactile feel. The aggressiveness of this Kata circles back to Sanchin and then into Kanshiwa. Kanshiwa begins to express more energy as a result.

Now in a similar Kata progression Seisan would make sense to come next but Seichin has been moved into this spot and WITH GOOD REASON.

Seichin: Seichin has Tiger aspects but when first learned you must introduce the softer quicker approach of the Crane. This is important because this approach must be part of learning Seisan. Without Seichin here the Crane of Seisan may be missed for some time.

So with the Crane now a part of what you are doing you MUST cycle it back to Sanchin. Making it part of Sanchin you can now find the Crane in Kanshiwa and then in Kanshu. Now your kata has become Tiger/Crane.

Seisan: Seisan is the next of the big three and you must approach it in your early stages from the Tiger Crane perspective. You now have these two elements to work with and as you work with them Seisan will introduce you to far more intricate uses of them that will – cycle to Sanchin, then Kanshiwa, then Kanshu and then Seichin will explode again.

Seiryu: Seiryu is an often overlooked Kata and I feel it is because people miss what it is to bring to the circle. Seiryu can be done with the Tiger/Crane BUT if you review the four centre piece movements you will see that they are most effective when done with a body undulation – The first step into the Dragon of Uechi Ryu. This undulation of the upper torso has to be integrated with the Tiger Crane and therefore it goes right back to the foundation of Sanchin. Now in Sanchin this upper body work must be integrated to Kanshiwa, Kanshu, Seichin and Seisan. The effect of the Katas will be very evident.

Konchin: So what the heck could be left to add you ask? A great deal. There is a lot that can be added but to focus on one spot the aggressive long deep penetrating moves are accompanied by movements that can should be done by deeply incorporating the back. The opening and closing of the back is combined with the undulating torso for a further advancement of the Dragon.

When this is taken back to Sanchin the Wauke and boshikens are deeply affected (along with all the Kata). This affect is taken into Kanshiwa, Kanshu, Seichin grows drastically giving the effect another boost forward, and then Seisan becomes something new and Seiryu now has a fuller Dragon to develop.

Sanseirui: Sanseirui is the final of the big three and the angles introduced seem almost inconsequential at first but as you work with them they take on far greater importance in how you develop.

The lessons from Sanseirui, which sadly I cannot translate into words right now, circles into Sanchin and the flavour shifts yet again. This ripples through Kanshiwa, Konchin, Seichin, Seisan, Seiryu, Konchin, Sanseirui and Sanchin.

No there is no mistake above the circle is never ending and constantly revolving and evolving.

So for me the eight Kata are very Uechi and very involved in the aiding the progression of how Uechi Ryu increases in effectiveness.
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Individual

Post by CANDANeh »

The additional five kata to me are kata waiting to attach themselves to a person. The big three have it all IMHO and each individual may in time adopt one of the additional five as one to suit his/her personality. I have adopted Seichen for instance as it seems to fit my flavour of Uechi, rarely do I study the other four except to remember them as others after me may adopt one as thiers. I could trash 4 but why discard these beautiful works of art that others may enjoy more.
With the Fuzhou suparinpei that I teach, I find very few have the mental and/or physical constitution to take it on. It's a major project
Bill ...I couldn`t agree more as my sensei has tried to teach me this great kata, it still eludes me as I`m a "slow learner" (not to be confussed with stupid :lol: )and learn best by repeating on my own over and over again and the few times we can work it in class doesn`t allow for my learning process to kick in. Would your camp DVD enable me to follow along so as my instructor could focus on the finer details in dojo? Sorry for the off topic Dana
Léo
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Post by Norm Abrahamson »

Dear Dana:

Very thought provoking post.
__________________________________
Do we really need those five (six) other kata? Is Uechi a complete stand-up system with only the Big Three? Is Uechi a complete system with only the Big Eight (Nine)? What is a complete system anyway?
____________________________________

I enjoy the additional kata, but I don't know that Uechi Ryu "needs" them. The fact that they are there helps to homogonize the way Uechi Ryu is taught from dojo to dojo. If they were not there, then I think that good teachers in various dojos would be likely to create their own kata or exercises to help the student accomplish what these additional katas accomplish.

As to whether Uechi Ryu is a complete system, I would have to say no. I personally don't believe there is any such thing, that is part of the reason I cross train. A truly complete system would at a miniumum need to address: stand up fighting, ground fighting, grappling, throws, locks, bladed weapons, blunt weapons and firearm training. Most people do not have the time or inclination to attempt that kind of training. One of the things I like about Uechi Ryu is that it is compact. Proficiency 8 Kata and a handful of bunkai and kumite are within the grasp of most people. How many kata could most people train to do well? 10? 20? 30? There comes a point of diminishing returns.

Uechi Ryu is an excellent system that teaches good fundamentals such as balance, stance, eye distance, generation of power in strikes, body conditioning, etc. It is up to the individual to decide if he or she wants to go beyond what Uechi Ryu teaches and experiment with other styles and systems. My Bando instructor used to say: No one nation has a monopoly on the sun. Go out and experiment. Keeps what works for you and discard what doesn't.

My 2.5 cents.

Sincerely,

Norm Abrahamson
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Post by Bill Glasheen »

Leo wrote:Would your camp DVD enable me to follow along so as my instructor could focus on the finer details in dojo? Sorry for the off topic Dana
Believe it or not, I pesonally think this is on topic.

The video will help, but I personally think it won't scratch the itch you have.

When I teach this form, I tell people that the most important aspect of it isn't what you are doing in the form, but how you must do it to make it a reasonable form. To me, this picks up where sanseiryu left off. For the most part, it is a jumble of techniques we have already seen as Uechika, with a few spicey pieces (like the seisan jump is to seisan) to make it "interesting" and so fun to do. But like the opening of seiryu is a variation on the theme of the opening of kanshu, so too is this form a variation on themes, sequences, and techniques we've already seen.

This is a long-a$$ed form. Every sequence in it is approximately 3 times longer than sequences we see in seisan or sanseiryu. And IMO, it doesn't work unless you can do them at about the same speed. From a practical self defense standpoint, it's the barrage of techniques they tell us we must throw at the BG to keep him/her disoriented and incapable of attacking us.

Additionally, this form is chock full of examples where techniques create openings and opportunities that lead to other techniques. You see this again and again in the form. No longer are you thinking one-shot-kill. Rather you are pinging the enemy, getting the enemy to react, and exploiting the reaction you know in advance will be natural - with precise timing. It is a brilliant strategy for attacking a capable fighter.

Finally, this form adds plyometric elements that are hinted at in sanseiryu. The only way to make that work right so that you flow like a rock going down a hill is to feel and exploit the elastic movements. These plyometric motions happen on vertical, rotational, and translational degrees of freedom of motion. Once you see that...you then want to go back to the other forms and add that in. I guess it's a bit like the dragon Rick talks about above. I never really "got" that from my study of sanseiryu. Once I started working with this form, I suddenly saw the light. And teachers like Master Gushi reinforced that idea when I worked with him on my sanseiryu.

The biggest hurdle here, Leo, is learning the sequence. It's being able to do it cold. You have to be able to do that so you can speed it up and feel what the form has in it. It is possible to do the form a few sequences at a time, and maybe that's the way to approach it for most people. But if doing that puts you in the "ichi, ni, san" mode, then you'll never get it. The beauty of doing a form like this from beginning to end with full intent is that you'll never get to the end unless you do it right. There is a method to the madness of its length, and it's hidden in the way the form begs you to move.

Hope that helps.

- Bill
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It does help

Post by CANDANeh »

Thanks for the reply Bill, interesting thoughts as well
Rather you are pinging the enemy, getting the enemy to react, and exploiting the reaction you know in advance will be natural - with precise timing. It is a brilliant strategy for attacking a capable fighter
I see this in observing the form, and the rest of your post applies as well. The kata I know must flow that is part of the difficulty in learning the form. Victor has ability to recreate what ever he sees, he learned the form from Bill and it blossemed from there trust me. I need more visual over and over in order to engrave into memory, the scratching under the surface will come in time with exploration and guidance. It may not be a Uechi kata but no question it enhances the style, other forms out there may do the same but this form although frighteningly long for a Uechika is a nice dessert to go with the big three main course. Goal for 2005 is to "learn" the "108". Good stuff
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Dana Sheets
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Post by Dana Sheets »

Everyone is on-topic. No worries.
If they were not there, then I think that good teachers in various dojos would be likely to create their own kata or exercises to help the student accomplish what these additional katas accomplish.
Bingo. However the inverse seems to be true. Because there are these 5 bridge kata some individuals/instructors/organizations seems reluctant to encourage original thoughts and experiments that suddenly 8 kata, 2 bunkai, 2 kumite, and a pounding exercise are the sacred cows of Uechi anything else is heresy.

Most of those folks aren't people who read and post on these boards - but they're out there.

Preserve the tradition, evolve the tradition. They are not mutually exclusive.

Rick - when are you going to make up a kata? :)
And Bill - ever though about putting a string of your "ditties" on tape for posterity?
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Bill Glasheen
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Post by Bill Glasheen »

I have a videographer in class now. We've started...but we have a long, long way to go.

I'm happy to share this stuff, so long as nobody takes it as religion.

- Bill
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Dana Sheets
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Post by Dana Sheets »

REM
Losing My Religion Lyrics - Out of Time Album

Life is bigger
It's bigger than you
And you are not me
The lengths that I will go to
The distance in your eyes
Oh no I've said too much
I set it up

That's me in the corner
That's me in the spotlight
Losing my religion
Trying to keep up with you
And I don't know if I can do it
Oh no I've said too much
I haven't said enough
I thought that I heard you laughing
I thought that I heard you sing
I think I thought I saw you try

Every whisper
Of every waking hour I'm
Choosing my confessions
Trying to keep an eye on you
Like a hurt lost and blinded fool
Oh no I've said too much
I set it up

Consider this
The hint of the century
Consider this
The slip that brought me
To my knees failed
What if all these fantasies
Come flailing around
Now I've said too much
I thought that I heard you laughing
I thought that I heard you sing
I think I thought I saw you try

But that was just a dream
That was just a dream

:D
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