Wauke question for Dana...

[2Green]

Dana, do you know why there is no counterstrike after the first part of the Wauke block, but rather a preparation for another (secondary) block?

Sorry if this is a moronic question.

NM

[Dana Sheets]

I asked this same question myself until I went to a James Thompson seminar and then saw it reinforced in my teacher.

And boy - I hope some other people jump in on this one because I'm sure there are lots of ideas on this. I will never claim to know why anything is really happending but since you asked I'm happy to share my thoughts - but only if you share yours!

My answer is that the counterstrike is there if you need it.

The circle is misnamed a block in my opinion. Block is a clumsy and limiting word for such a useful little tool. Also I need to clarify what you mean by "first part of the block."
Do you mean:
-the "prep" position of putting one hand into the elbow crook of the other
-the guide block that covers your centerline
-the big circle (what Rick calls the "Major Arm Movement")

And from my experience in Okinawa there are two distinct circle blocks. One ends with your hands at an even height (for example the ones you do before a front kick in the forms) and the other ends with your hands at an uneven height (for example the ones you do in sanchin.)

But to get back to my point - the movement of the circle allows you to pop anything you need to pop on the way around the circle. David Elkins was a master at showing how this could work and one of my other favorite teachers for this is Earnie Sumpter in Philly. David Elkins' adaptations of Patrick McCarthy's Tegumi drills are somewhere on this site. Those flow drills are a great way of seeing how alive that hand can be.

For agument's sake let's say that I use the rear foot hand to cover the centerline and the forward foot hand to do the circle.

The centerline hand parry uke's strike, or deflect uke's shove or do neither and continue forward and pop uke in the nose or flick him in the eyes. It could also attack uke's attacking arm or (one I often use) be set up as an immovable brace that allows you to use uke's power to shove you off the line of attack.

Basically I see it as a hand that's there to do what you need it to do. I think too many people put a very dead hand up to cover their centerline. Your hands need to be awake. There are more options available to that hand than just setting up the big circle.

I like to think of it as passing palms back and forth. Kind of like juggling. This is especially true of the opening movement for Sanseiryu. You're given a sequence of passing palms that you can repeat (or shorten) as needed until you have something you can destory. Maybe the first hand you put up gets to go ahead in and blast something. But often that first hand has to play catch-up. So the second hand gets to hit. But you won't know.

Robb from Sacramento showed me how if you keep that forward guiding hand firmly in place - it can not only deflect the first incoming attack but become an attack at the same time - but you've got to be good/get lucky on the stepping.

Remember the footage of The Three Stooges? Their physical comedy routine is a great way to think about the movements.

...well that was pretty long winded...and I don't even know if I'm talking about the right part of the block yet or not.

[Mills75]

I don't have much to offer on the thread cause I'm a novice so far.but Dana I just wanted to say one of our instructors named Andy Benedict 3rd degree blackbelt who also trains and is a student of Dr.Rinchuse like myself said he was also at a meeting with James Thompson once and he met you and he added some things you said to our class concerning Sanchin.so I just wanted to say you added something on Sanchin to one of our classes..

Jeff

[2Green]

Dana:
Thanks for a great answer: yes, I was referring to the initial guide-then-Major-Circle movement...and then the wait. Why the wait?
When you teach Kanshiwa Bunkai or Kyu Kumite for example, do you include this "wait" before the secondary punch/block, or do your students counterstrike immediate after ANY block?

And BTW, I routinely find your insights helpful and well thought-out.
I'm a kind of "details" person and I like to know why-this, why-that.
For example, do you realize that in my (meager) six years of training no one had ever pointed out that there were two versions of the Wauke "hands-level" and "hands chambered" as you SO CASUALLY mentioned in your reply?! Hmmm...!

And Mills75:
As far as I'm concerned, the BEST questions come from the NEWEST students! They make us all think hard about what we assume.
Don't think you have "little to offer", please!
To me, any question is an opportunity to learn something, and I think you'll find a lot of us feel the same way.
And that first step into the Dojo is the biggest step; you have my respect for that.

NM

[Mills75]

Thank you very much for those words and yes i'm learning alot on here and from everyone on the forums it's a great place to exchange ideas and see other peoples points of view on things.Really I think the best first step I ever took was the one I took into the Uechi/Shohei dojo where I met alot and I am still meeting so many great and humble and knowledgeable individuals who comprise our great style of martial arts.Even at this stage I have spoken by mail to many people in Uechi like Keisuke Fujimoto who encouraged me from the Okikukai which is the organization I am with and then some great folks helped me and also invited me to visit the Zankai which I hope to someday in the future and i get instruction from great and humble instructors like Mark Stevens 5th dan who was a student of Charles Earle at one time and is now with Dr. Rinchuse at our school.It's a wonderful experience that continues forward daily.And all the great organizations and people of our style I have so much respect for them like the Kenyukai and the I.U.K.F. and all of them so I consider myself lucky and I'm very thankful..Again thank you and your kind words are another great example of the fine and knowledgeable people we're blessed to have in this style it's been one of the best choices of my life to find this style and I cherish it and Hope someday to add and further it along with the younger generation of Uechika.thanks again and best wishes

Jeff

[Dana Sheets]

Jeff - thank you for your kind words. I'm a little fuzzy on that day, but I do remember meeting Mr. David Finklestein. He was very kind to me and said my sanchin reminded him of Mr. Tomoyse. One of the nicest compliments I've ever received.

And please feel welcome to post all your thoughts. I've been posting on these forums since I was kyu rank and have really benefits from putting my ideas, questions, and thoughts out there for feedback.

Dana

[Bill Glasheen]

Why the wait?
When you teach Kanshiwa Bunkai or Kyu Kumite for example, do you include this "wait" before the secondary punch/block, or do your students counterstrike immediate after ANY block?

I've been silently lurking here because it's Dana's forum, and also because sometimes it's difficult to understand someone's question from text. But since Dana's made comments and there are other questions here, I'll loan my 2 cents.

One of the things you have to realize about exercises like Kanshiwa Bunkai and Kyu Kumite is that they are beginner rountines. In reality you have to crawl before you walk before you run.

Japanese sometimes speak of three types of interactions with an attack:

1) Go no sen: In this situation, one blocks, chambers (perhaps at the same time), and then attacks.

2) Sen no sen: In this situation, one executes an attack at the same time one blocks (intercepts) the technique.

3) Sen: In this situation, you attack the intent of the attack. It is pre-emptive action, designed to eliminate the need for a "block" per se.

These three scenarios can be thought of as the crawling, the walking, and the running. You can take the same exercise and do any of the three scenarios. It's entirely up to you and how you want to use the routine. These routines are just learning tools which the user is perfectly free to modify to suit his/her own needs.

It's worth mentioning that the arts of kyusho or tuite can sometimes be thought of as variations of level three above, where the "block" is really an attack of the attack. A chudan uke for example could instead be thought of as an attack on the radial nerve, which would be the first pressure point hit in a sequence that may lead to a light-force KO. Or a jiujitsu "intercept" is nothing more than an opportunity to latch on to a limb that subsequently will be dislocated.

So the "wait" you refer to in exercises you are doing is nothing more than breaking things down into bite-size chunks for your beginner mind.

Another way to look at it is like this. The reality of a surpise attack is that your arms may fly up and your brain says "What the f***?" It may take a second or two to have it register that someone is cheapshotting you and your life is on the line. If you are trained well, your flinch responses can be converted to useful, gross motor movements that stave off the attack until you are mentally in the game and prepared to do what is necessary. Understand?

And all of this involves the exact same movements. It's just variations on levels of expertise and/or mindset and/or situation.

- Bill

[2Green]

Thank you Mr. Glasheen.
I am familiar with the three timing concepts, but have yet to turn them into part of my physical ability.

I think you hit it right on the head when you said:
"So the "wait" you refer to in exercises you are doing is nothing more than breaking things down into bite-size chunks for your beginner mind."

I guess I would have to agree! Do you think six years is enough time to assimilate these exercises? I'm still finding them useful, but I'm a slow learner.

NM

[Bill Glasheen]

They are tools, and you will find something to do with them at all levels. You will approach them differently based on what you bring to them at any one point in time.

Just remember though that by their very nature, they will have limits. Past a point you want to spend more time on the freeform and scenario training. And that in turn will give you ideas that you need to iron out in the prearranged training. It is an infinitely iterative process.

- Bill

[2Green]

This may be a difficult question for you to answer, but am I not ingraining habits which will be, later, more difficult to "un-grain" because of years spent learning it a certain way?

I don't understand why Karate, UNLIKE any other other process I have studied (there are many), is taught this way.(Do it "just for now")
I certainly don't expect you to answer THAT question! I know it's a big one!

At what point in time do you feel the freeform/scenario experience should begin? Do you have thoughts on how it should be introduced?
How do you teach it in your classes, and when do you begin it?

I realize this post is all questions--sorry, but questions are more abundant than answers!


NM