Big Dog Syndrome?

[Bill Glasheen]

From the book by John Feinstein...

{Kermit Washington} was part of a generation of enforcers, players whose job it was to protect their team's star. Abdul-Jabbar was the Laker's star. Washington was his protection. That meant he did the dirty work defensively and on the boards, and if any kind of skirmish broke out, it was his job to make sure that nothing happened to Abdul-Jabbar. There were limits to what {Abdul-Jabbar} could do. On opening night in October, Abdul-Jabbar, frustrated by the physical play of Milwaukee Bucks rookie center Kent Benson, had hauled off and slugged Benson, breaking his hand. He had missed 20 games and the Lakers had struggled to a 9-14 start.

It was Washington whom Tomjanovich had seen throw the punch at Kunnert. As Kunnert's knees buckled and Abdul-Jabbar, who had been trying to separate Kunnert from Washington, swung him away, Washington became aware of someone approaching from behind.

"I saw a blur of red," he said. "I grew up in the streets. You learn there that if you're in a fight and someone is coming up from behind you, you swing first and ask questions later."

He turned and swung, a straight right hand that landed just under Tomjanovich's nose. At the very last instant, as Washington turned and faced him, Tomjanovich sensed danger. He tried to throw his hands up to protect himselv, but it was too late.

****

...a punch that landed with devastating force. It was thrown by a very strong man, pumped up on adrenaline from being in a fight, at a man running full speed right into the punch, completely unprotected.

****

"I'll never forget that sound," Abdul-Jabbar said. "I had turned Kunnert away from Kermit, and suddenly I heard this crack, like a melon landing on concrete. It's twenty-four years ago, but I can still hear it."

Big, big difference between this event - and the party involved - and the girls' lockerroom cat fights you usually see on the basketball court, Justin.

Oh, and so much for Bruce Lee's "kung fu lessons." Didn't help Abdul-Jabbar much, did it? As they say, a little knowledge...

Van I'm sure has comments.

- Bill

[Bill Glasheen]

Back to the Divine Comedy (a.k.a. basketbrawl).

The Associated Press
DETROIT — Two fans sued the Indiana Pacers and players Ron Artest, Stephen Jackson and Jermaine O'Neal on Tuesday, contending they were injured in the brawl at the end of the Pistons-Pacers game.
Lawyers for John Ackerman and William Paulson filed suits in Oakland County Circuit Court in Pontiac, seeking unspecified damages.

Ackerman, a 67-year-old retired auto worker, says he was hit by O'Neal and then by a chair that a fan hurled into the crowd. His suit also names Palace Sports & Entertainment Inc., which operates the Pistons' arena.

"He was knocked unconscious by the chair," said Todd Weglarz, who along with lawyer Geoffrey Fieger represents the men. "The next thing he recalls is being helped into a wheelchair."

- Detroit Pistons fans sue Pacers over brawl at Palace

Typical A-hole trial lawyers. Find an injured party, and sue the deep pockets (rather than the guilty party).



What did I tell you?

Ron Artest should have done some damage for all the useless crap he'll get put through...

- Bill

[Valkenar]

Thanks for coming up with the example I was talking about. Anyhow, like I said some can throw a punch some can't. Can most in the NBA? I have no idea. I'd believe that the percentage that can is greater than in college basketball, but that's just a guess. Also, there is an increasing percentage of players taken directly out of high school, often from areas where you can expect that fighting played a roll in their lives.

BUt I agree that dangerousness and size are not identical, and never meant to imply that. But given that many people will revert to flailing under stress anyway (even black belts just at a dan-test), I don't think it's neccesarily a safe bet that random black belt is going to win a hypothetical fight. Depending, of course, on the circumstances.

[Bill Glasheen]

You are welcome, Justin. Following violence in sports is a bit of a hobby of mine.

As for "the random black belt," well it depends a lot on how they are trained.

there is an increasing percentage of players taken directly out of high school, often from areas where you can expect that fighting played a roll in their lives.

I grew up in the Wythe area of Hampton, Justin. My neighbors included Alonzo Morning, Michael Vick, Allen Iverson, Charlie Ward, and quite a few more notables. And by my early teens, I was a speck of white in a sea of black.

It wasn't the brothers on the court who scared me.

From Feinstein...

Washington often joked about his shooting ability. "I would always say to the referees, 'Hey, I'm being fouled, call a foul,'" he said. "And they would look at me and say, 'Kermit, if we call the foul, you're just going to miss free throws and embarrass yourself. Keep playing.'"

Need I say more?

- Bill

[Van Canna]

My comments?

"I saw a blur of red," he said. "I grew up in the streets. You learn there that if you're in a fight and someone is coming up from behind you, you swing first and ask questions later."

Now if he had grown up with Uechi , the way it is taught today by “traditional teachers” He would have programmed to block, then try to hit, just like the kumites…

Oh, and so much for Bruce Lee's "kung fu lessons." Didn't help Abdul-Jabber much, did it? As they say, a little knowledge...

Yup…lessons about what? Tactics win the fight, not BS training..

...a punch that landed with devastating force. It was thrown by a very strong man, pumped up on adrenaline from being in a fight, at a man running full speed right into the punch, completely unprotected.

Yep…

And big, strong, tall, long reaching behemoths don’t need much technique, only gross motor engines moving with intent, and you are done, extra long black belt notwithstanding.

and suddenly I heard this crack, like a melon landing on concrete. It's twenty-four years ago, but I can still hear it."

Yep..And you will hear that crack, over and over, when your head cracks, after you have thrown your “nukite” to the eyes, expecting the man to fold, but making him mad as hell instead, and handing him a license to unscrew your head off.

Typical A-hole trial lawyers. Find an injured party, and sue the deep pockets (rather than the guilty party).



What did I tell you?

Ron Artest should have done some damage for all the useless crap he'll get put through...

Right on, Bill. They have been hit with the “legal shotgun” _

In these situations you will find various degrees of negligence in all the “Shot-gunned named defendants”

Most states have a joint tort-feasor statute that allows for the defendant with only one percent of negligence, but with all the money, to be held responsible for 100% of the damages.

Good law…

As for "the random black belt," well it depends a lot on how they are trained.

Maybe..I put my money on someone like Kermit, anyday, as opposed to some “properly trained under real master, conditioned, kumite, bunkai, believer”

It is like going up against and getting hit by a truck load of steel pipes flying at you.

[Bill Glasheen]

But... but... you mean I can't absorb the greatness of my guru? Say it ain't so, Van!

- Bill

[Bill Glasheen]

By the way, I thought you would enjoy that description of the Washington-Tomjanovich altercation. Scary...and "very real" in its assessment in my book. There's so much you could comment on.

That amygdala-level response Kermit experienced is both fascinating and frightening to me. Unlike the girlie slapping sessions in Detroit, that was real street violence. In his case, I am thinking that street experience gave him some operant conditioning that fine-tuned a natural response.

I've had a few scary responses like that, and feel lucky nothing really bad came of it. It's nice to know it's there somewhere, but scary to think about whether it will be there when I need it, and not there when I don't. And I don't like testing it...

When I say training (w.r.t. black belts), I meant technique + conditioning (both physical and psychological) + tactics. Perhaps all our standards are getting higher...

- Bill

[RA Miller]

[quote="benzocaine
These azzholes are paid millions to be role models to our kids and what do they do? They go out into the stands and beat up the very people who paid to see them..[/quote]

Not to side track, but I disagree vehemently. These azzholes are paid millions of dollars to entertain fat POS who sit on their couches snarfing potato chips and watching grown men play a kid's game.

If a decent percentage of the people in America would get off the couch and turn off the TV and start playing some sports themselves... the entire professional sports industry might fade away.

Rory

[benzocaine]

These azzholes are paid millions of dollars to entertain fat POS who sit on their couches snarfing potato chips and watching grown men play a kid's game.

... and their kids.

Sorry but these guys are on some kids poster in their bdroom somewhere. They should be mindful of that.

[MikeK]

I don't think so Ben. I wish that they would consider it but that's not their job. But it is mine with regards to my kids and those they hang out with.

http://www.sportsunabridged.com/su/080902.htm

[Bill Glasheen]

Good to see you, Rory. My best to Oregon. Give Portland a raspberry for me, and give Kami a hug.

Van

I resisted taking your bait. You put a LOT out there... Now I'm going to run with it a bit.

In these situations you will find various degrees of negligence in all the “Shot-gunned named defendants”

Most states have a joint tort-feasor statute that allows for the defendant with only one percent of negligence, but with all the money, to be held responsible for 100% of the damages.

Good law…

Good law, eh? You KNEW that was bait, Van.

But...fine. Let's go with it, and a few other good laws of the street.

I'll continue with my philosophy here. Using Rory's own description, we've got these lazy POS's in the audience who feel they have a right to hurl beer and other debris at these "highly paid" athletes. You know, the ones whose salaries they pay. OK... And then they want to run to their lawyers and sue them for the bootie, because they got an owie for their stupidity. Fine...

Like I said, if you are Ron Artest, you have two decisions to make. First is to take it. So many athletes do, and I tip my hat to them. They have more restraint than most of the cyberwarriors who debate these issues.

But...Ron can retaliate. And you know even if some fan hurls a chair and hurts someone else, Ron is the one who has to pay the bill at the end of the day because Ron is the deep pocket. And Ron was 1% culpable, after all.

I say it's all wrong here. In a perfect world, we go back to the way things used to be. Back in the good old days, we knew a shakedown when we saw one. All it took was a little straight-up blackmail, some brass knuckles in a dark alley, an offer we couldn't refuse, whatever...

But noooo, we are a "morally superior" society. We don't do things that way. We let the lawyers do what was once a man's job.

Fine. So...

Ron, if you are going to cross that line into the audience, and if the A-hole trial lawyers are going to make you pay 100% of the bill (of which they'll get virtually all of it), well by golly GET 100% OF THE BLAME! Do some real damage, Ron. None of this girlieman slapping schit like we saw on TV. Take the jerk and his friends out. Use those elbows and those knees that god gave you.

But...we have these lawyers who employ weapons of mass litigation. What to do about them? I say execute a good old fashioned preemptive strike. Spend one day at home in front of the TV, Ron. Every one of these scumsuckers are on TV trolling for losers who don't want to work for a living. Sit in front of the TV and take names and phone numbers of every Dewey, Cheetham, and Howe firm that advertises from 9 AM to 4 PM. Who the heck do you think they are looking for, after all?

All it takes is one day.

Then...take 'em out first, I say. First strike, by golly. What's this block and THEN strike schit? Hit 'em first, and hit 'em hard. Get rid of them before they multiply and make more little blood suckers.

You go, Ron!

You might miss a few though... No problem. All you have to do is tape a dollar bill to a roadside bomb on the same streets where you found the original law firms. That'll get the rest of them. I hear they have superior olifactory senses, and can sniff even a single bill out a block away.

Strike first. Strike hard. And don't look back...

Or...

Wait until Detroit visits Indiannapolis...

- Bill

[IJ]

Agreed that only the guilty should pay out. Law and culture in this country are deeply sick... and what the normal people need to do is train some lawyers and politicians of their own to rewrite asinine laws made by lawyers for lawyers. Good luck with that, America....

As for the players... I'm not sure how it was clear to the players who threw what. So they could be--I thought I heard--were slugging the innocent. I'm not going to weep if they lose their cases. I've had coworkers who had patients try to strangle them, throw chairs at them, curse them, complain endlessly, be belligerent or verbally cruel for no reason... at the end of a 30 hour shift trying to help people... or the end of a 21 day shift without a day off... for millions less than these thugs make. And instead of freaking out and slugging people, they're expected to--and do--smile through it and do the right thing.

And one might say... but you're EXPECTED to do the right thing... and these guys are EXPECTED to be thugs... and not care about anything but their images, egos, some $, and a sport. I say, exactly, that's the f'ing problem, let's get these turds out of popular culture already. I mean, lots of people will eat sheep brains with Joe Rogan for a shot at 50,000, and these millionaires freak out if a little beer is splashed on them?

Rory, we had to write emails after night shifts to inform the day shifts of goings-on. Was tradition to include some humor or a haiku etc. Here's one I wrote after a huge victory for the Pats that had half the staff in a frenzy--thought you might like it.

Late game dramatics
Pats deny tenacious foe
They play hockey, right?

[Van Canna]

When I say training (w.r.t. black belts), I meant technique + conditioning (both physical and psychological) + tactics. Perhaps all our standards are getting higher...

True. But I would additionally go to _natural great size, strength, and plain ruthless combativeness.

Some of the black belts as you describe above, would still be very marginal against such powerhouses.

I remember being in Nova Scotia once, for one of Maloney’s tournaments. In the hotel lobby we met with a bunch of wrestlers in town for a “show” _

Veritable mountains you could hit with a sledgehammer, and they would take it away from you and shove down your throat.

Then I really enjoyed myself listening to some “high Dans” speculating and uttering things like “you have to know where to hit them” like they could, even if they knew…

~~

Good law, eh? You KNEW that was bait, Van

Not really. I did not make myself clear.

The joint tort-feasor statutes provide that a given number of at fault defendants will have to contribute equal shares towards the compensation of an injured plaintiff, regardless of their percentage of contributing negligence that caused the injury and damages.

But, if all the defendants mostly at fault have no deep pockets, and the remaining one has all the money [deep pockets] and is only one percent negligent, then he must pay the entire compensation to the plaintiff, [In such a case, the "deep pocket" would be liable for all the plaintiff’s damages, pursuant to the doctrine of joint and several liability.]
Then go after the insolvent co-defendants on his own to try and collect.

Among each other the statute will then apportion reimbursement in accordance to varying degrees of negligence.

I see the basketball star’s incident as the result of a number of negligent wrongdoers, not just one.

The club, could do a lot more to put restraints on the players, etc., yet they cannot interfere with self-defense.

Then...take 'em out first, I say. First strike, by golly. What's this block and THEN strike schit? Hit 'em first, and hit 'em hard. Get rid of them before they multiply and make more little blood suckers.

Yes, I understand the point…but then we have this

"I saw a blur of red," he said. "I grew up in the streets. You learn there that if you're in a fight and someone is coming up from behind you, you swing first and ask questions later."

If you are in the street and see a blur of red coming at you from behind, you will be quick to fill that casket, if you get into a Uechi stance, try to block and counter.

You will never get the chance, and even if you do, you will be one step behind, and the opponent’s momentum will quickly overcome you.

So it all depends…

[Van Canna]

By Sammy Franco:

Many will not strike first because they simply do not know how to successfully execute a preemptive strike. While others are uncertain about the legal requirements and justifications. As a result, they second guess their instincts, hesitate, and end up kissing the pavement.

Therefore, it is imperative that you have a basic understanding of the legal requirements of launching a preemptive strike in a self-defense situation.

~~

THE ADVERSARY
Before launching your first strike, you must assess the source of danger. Who is posing the reasonable threat? Is it someone you know, or is he a complete stranger? Is it one person or two or more? What are his intentions in confronting you?

Pay very close attention to all available clues, especially nonverbal indicators. Your answers to these important questions will shape your overall tactical response. There are five essential factors to consider when assessing a threatening adversary: demeanor, intent, range, positioning, and weapon capability.

[Van Canna]

First Strike Justifications
The most difficult aspects of the first strike principle is exactly when can a martial artist strike first.

Well, since every self-defense situation is going to be different, there is no simple answer to this question. However, there are some fundamental elements that must be present if you are going to launch a preemptive strike.


First, you must never use force against another person unless it is absolutely justified. Force is broken down into two levels: lethal and non-lethal.

Lethal force is defined as the amount of force that can cause serious bodily injury or death. While non-lethal force is defined as an amount of force that does not cause serious bodily injury or death.

Keep in mind that any time you use physical force against another person, you run the risk of having a civil suit filed against you. Anyone can hire a lawyer and file a suit for damages. Likewise, anyone can file a criminal complaint against you.

Whether criminal charges will be brought against you depends upon the prosecutor or grand jury's views of the facts. Nevertheless, I can tell you that if you are trained in the martial arts, a jury of your peers will hold you to a much higher standard of behavior.