Okay Bill, that info is interesting, though I'm not sure what point you're making with it. Certainly I wasn't trying to question your teaching ability or the quality of your students.
This is true.
Indeed, the examples you give show greater than average competance I would say, rather than the bumbling oaf you seemed to depict befor e.
Interesting...
All I was trying to get at is what your perception is based on. Whether it's the athletes' performance in the dojo, or in serious fights in other contexts. It's just very surprising to me to hear you say that athlete's aren't much of a threat.
That would be surprising to me too - if I said it.
I understand if you feel that presenting your reasons would be sharing their dirty laundry in public, or otherwise hurtful, and that's fine.
Perhaps you don't understand, Justin.
Here is what you asked.
I'm curious Bill, in your experiences with collegiate athletes of various kinds, did you have the opportunity to see them in serious fights? What sort of altercations did you happen to observe outside of the dojo?
Let's assume that I did, Justin. Or let's assume that as a martial arts instructor, I become privey to information about a serious altercation where damage was done to life and/or property. Now...how stupid would I be blabbering about it online, just to satisfy someone's curiosity? As an attorney, physician, or psychologist, I would be protected by law from having to testify in court with such information. As a lowly Ph.D. and black belt, I have no such privleges. A prosecuting attorney can subpoena me to testify in court if (s)he knows I know anything.
So... I KNOW NOTHING.
Furthermore, damn few people are persistent flies on the wall of many such encounters. LEOs perhaps. And if you are, you probably aren't doing something right, or you'd better get a new line of work because your number is going to come up pretty soon.
The best experts in the world on this stuff learn most of what they learn from a little bit of experience (maybe...) and a LOT of interviewing of people who have been through such encounters. (Grossman would be a good example.) And folks like them generally have the patient/physician protection that allows them not to reveal what they have learned.
What I'm trying to say the best way I can, Justin, is that the most reliable sources for such information would not be first-hand witnesses of a good deal of this kind of activity.
I have a few such encounters that I could probably talk about because the trials are over. Generally they are chaotic (literally and figuratively), with a thread of sense lacing through the nonsense.
I guess the question is, compared to who?
It's difficult to answer your question when I don't agree with your assessment of what I have said.
What I've pretty much said from the beginning is that basketball players in general don't know how to fight - especially given what you expect from their size and their physical shape. They tend to flail, punch and break their hands, push like adolescents, etc., etc.
This pretty much is what you find in the general population. One of my "hobbies" was to sit in a place like the 24/7 New York style deli on "the corner" at U.Va. late at night, and watch stupid fights break out. Four about 4 years, I was working in a lab during the day, teaching martial arts in the evening, and working on my dissertation at night. I'd get around 3 to 5 hours of sleep a night for months on end (until I got sick and had to take a break). At the end of a long day (around 4 AM), I'd order a sub, and sit in the far back corner of the deli where nobody would bother me and I could people watch. Invariably fights would break out. And "macho men" woudl step in to "break it up." It was all great entertainment, and I rarely saw anyone get hurt. This is what most fights on the basketball court remind me of.
And then there was this friend of mine who was ex special forces and just a little bit whacked. Gary was a fighting genius, and had the emotional intelligence of a preadolescent. I kind of liked him, and tried to take him under my wing (as a friend) basically to protect him from himself. Whenever he got into fights, it was very ugly and very quick. And I wanted nothing to do with it, although I generally got to watch from afar. One day he was fighting with his girlfriend, and someone called the police. They argued. The police left, and Gary kicked the door closed behind them. It hit the last policeman in the a$$ as it was closing.
Can you say jail time? Can you say get the s*** beat out of you at gun point, and THEN go to jail for it all?
Nope, it's not pretty. And I don't like talking about it. Bad memories. Wasted life...
Back to sports...
I taught for 14 years at The University, and manged to get beginners classes of 40 to 80 people every semester. Most were there for a semester of "kah rah tee" and a good workout. We obliged, and worked them hard. But I was always on the search for talent, and wanting to find that next Bobby Campbell in the crowd.
As I taught, I tried to take note of who lasted, and who didn't. Who ended up being a great fighter, and who was a big disappointment. My assumption was that I would find great prospects in varsity athletes. For the most part, my assumption was proven false. But there were exceptions, and I paid close attention.
For example, among football players the linemen were the worst. They were (generally) hopelessly slow and extremely inflexible. Too bad...years of bad training and a talent that rested largely in being just plain big and that's about it.
I would find some physical geniuses here and there though. These were the interesting ones...
And finally...none of MY long term students ended up being former great athletes. Most of them were too specialized and too dedicated to their sports to "dabble" in martial arts and get any good at it. And quite frankly, just because you're good at one activity doesn't necessarily mean you'll be good at another.
But there are exceptions to that rule, and these are the interesting ones...
These are the "Renaissance men" of our time. These are our future corporate CEOs. These are very, very, rare (wo)men.
It makes you appreciate a man like Andre Tippett...
It makes me - a manger and research team leader - appreciate the concept of team building.
I've tried taking note over time of these "geniuses" that can transcend activities. Certain activities (such as pole vaulting) seem to demand a complete package.
My brother-in-law whom I referred to earlier is one of those geniuses. He was a decathlete in high school and in his first year of college. He played rugby, and was on the U.Va. team when they were #1 in the nation and written up in Sports Illustrated. And he walked into the intramural boxing tournament and took it. He later became a bank VP for several banks whose names you'd immediately recognize.
Rare...
Most athletes from other sports struggle in martial arts like the rest of us mere mortals. They can learn and they can get pretty good like you or I, but they have to work at it. And they'll never be a Bobby Campbell...
And over time, I stopped searching for these geniuses. Instead, I began focusing more on the rewarding task of taking normal people and getting the best out of them. That requires another kind of genius...
Over time, Justin, I learned not to fear these behemouths when they would come in class. Instead, I was the first to welcome and work with them. Some folks like my man Tony had to work only with me. Tony kept breaking peoples' toes. He liked stepping on his opponents' feet so he could pin and pound them. And he would hurt people just by being the rambling wreck that he was.
Sigh... It was often not out of
intent, which made it all the more interesting to work with. It was like having my Great Dane in the apartment. You had to rearrange your furniture so the wagging tail wouldn't take out that Chinese lamp...
But...size matters in other ways. Yes, I got hurt a bit here and there with someone like Tony when he started getting good and I was careless (interesting stories all to themselves). But mostly I started to lose perspective. Tony was just Tony to me. He was my training partner. And then one day, someone came in the workout room and asked if he could use a piece of equipment. He had the funniest terrified look on his face. It puzzled me... I try to read people, and I sensed this guy was scared out of his wits. I shrugged my shoulders, turned around, and began again to work out with...
Ooohhhhhh!!!!
It comes back to the question. What makes a dangerous fighter. Both the physical component and the mental component are needed. I'm not sre why I'd expect an athelete to be especially lacking in either department.
I think I've begun to answer that question for you, Justin. As I've stated before, I think professionally in n-space. A number of factors come together to create the great fighter. Everyone brings something to the table. We as teachers are here to figure out what they bring, and what they lack. Then we make something of it.
The process of figuring all this out makes you appreciate both the genius fighters AND the genius teachers.
- Bill
or my outstanding conditioning 
, but all of the above info that I was able to assimilate and somehow put together into the 'force continuum'. This somehow made me a big dog in the eyes of the Marines. 
