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Differences in moves, techniques, emphasis and applications.
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benzocaine
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Post by benzocaine »

Jim:I thought the elbows have to be out in front of the body about a fist and a half away.
We do a fist away..at my school at least.

Strike and Laird, Not sure what you are seeing as far as the shoulders not looking right. Does this guy do that same thing with his shoulders :? http://www.wonder-okinawa.jp/023/eng/009/002/001.html He's the last living student of Kanbun Uechi.


I found the windows player worked best for viewing these clips.
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Dana Sheets
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Post by Dana Sheets »

Ming Jing (visible force)
Ming jing is the first and the easiest step of martial arts practice. It features use of external force and strength with sudden burst of energy (Fa Jing) and long and visually attractive techniques. Many masters describe this stage as the "Yang" time.

An Jing (hidden force)
An jing is the second stage in martial arts practice. It features use of more internal force and strength constantly applied (silk reeling), close range skills, small circular techniques and more complex qinna. This is often described as the "Yin" time.

Hua Jing (transformed force)
Hua jing is the last and the hardest stage to achieve. When both Ming Jing and An Jing are mastered, the student (now an expert) has to eliminate all signs of work. No martial techniques remain, all seems easy and even sometimes invisible. Energy is available whenever needed and efficiency is complete. This is the ultimate goal, the "Dao".

source: http://www.spheral.com/shaolinneipai/program.html
Again,

"Energy is available whenever needed and efficiency is complete."

I'm a big fan of process - and that it's just as important to know where the process is going. The above is the best short summary I've ever found of progression in the martial arts. I find that in my own training I'm in different places depending on what I'm working on. Some techniques are effortless, others are still hard work, and still others have a nice flow to them - but are not yet truly powerful.

Dana
Did you show compassion today?
Guest

Post by Guest »

Ben, we are referring to the shoulder blade. it does not appear anchored. It splays out from the back which is indicative of joint instablility. the shoulders can reach forward because of the loose muscles on the blade, but long term this kind of injury begins to effect all the muscles in the joint as they attempt to compensate .


Could be wrong, I'm no doctor and the film is poor quality, but shoulder injuries are common in our style.
Last edited by Guest on Sat Dec 18, 2004 4:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.
jorvik

Post by jorvik »

Dana,
Re your last post. I've seen this kind of "hidden energy" and it is scary. It's really where good Chinese MA's are at............. .and if you've never seen it it's kind of hard to accept :( ...there is a lot of this type of thing in "Good" Tai -Chi..but it's very hard to find. My own teacher is quite a strong fit man ( although middle aged.....a Grandparent in fact :) ).yet when I push hands with him or try to find his centre he feels immensley powerful, much more so than I would have imagined, most of it is down to the correct use of force and energy, stance etc....a great deal of this type of thing ( to my eye at least) is in Uechi.......(although I feel a lot of it has been lost :cry: )...I see more and more good TC moves in Uechi, especially Sanchin as I get older, and the people who look strong are not the ones to watch out for.it's the folks who don't look strong, particularly :wink: ...great style for a women if you have that knowledge 8)
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JimHawkins
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Post by JimHawkins »

jorvik wrote:Dana,
Re your last post. I've seen this kind of "hidden energy" and it is scary. It's really where good Chinese MA's are at............. .and if you've never seen it it's kind of hard to accept :( ...there is a lot of this type of thing in "Good" Tai -Chi..but it's very hard to find.
Agreed. I think chi sao fits the bill. Same elements but much more combative.

This is where genuine dynamic energy interaction is studied, ingrained and experienced. IMO you cannot substitute non contact, non sensitivity training and expect to 'get this' because they are one and the same.

This kind of training teaches you how to move a hundred pounds with a single ounce... and can answer many other 'questions...'

I think Dana would be a perfect fit. :D
Shaolin
M Y V T K F
"Receive what comes, stay with what goes, upon loss of contact attack the line" – The Kuen Kuit
jorvik

Post by jorvik »

Yeah Jim
You are right on the money 8) ..my two favourite styles are TC and WC..and I agree WC is more combatative.but I think that it has always been that way, whereas TC has lost some of that.....coz ageing hippies do it to get in contact with their inner self :oops: rather than as an effective,aggressive Ma ............with health benefits :wink:
Stryke

Post by Stryke »

Good info guys , dont mean to sideline this with the whole shoulder issue ;)

Dana great quote thanks , deffinately good stuff , as for now i`m just trying to combine power dynamics , using Sanchin as a training aid rather than a performance tool , watched your clip again last night deffinately more ideas to work on .
jorvik

Post by jorvik »

Marcus
If I may assist ( :lol: ).............from a TC perspective, get into your Sanchin stance while facing a wall, place both palms on the wall as though pushing it, and in fact do just that....but try to feel that the push comes from your heels.you should feel pressure on your heels and palms..but you shouldn't push yourself of the wall.in fact you should remain rock steady, and in TC terms you will feel "grounded".....you can use that feeling in stand up grappling, chi-na type of stuff you will press forward more with your energy....you do this a whole lot more in WC.........in fact you become a "space invader" :multi: ........because you actively invade other people's space.but Jim knows a lot more about that than I do :) .maybe he'll contribute some drills or exercises to help develop that
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JimHawkins
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Post by JimHawkins »

Just to wrap up this tangent... :oops:
jorvik wrote:Jim knows a lot more about that than I do :) .maybe he'll contribute some drills or exercises to help develop that
I've been wrestling with this for a while. On the one hand I don't want to post garbage, e.g. stuff I don't actually use. Though some might find it useful.

On the other hand chi sao is too involved to do a 'clip on' and I don't know if I would want to go public with "a ton of chi sao content" even if I could. Though I would freely share any info with the fine folks I know here on a 1 to 1 basis.

So, I've been trying to come up with some happy medium but haven't yet. I'm still working on it and if there is interest I'll keep working on it.
Shaolin
M Y V T K F
"Receive what comes, stay with what goes, upon loss of contact attack the line" – The Kuen Kuit
Stryke

Post by Stryke »

Thanks Jorvik , grounding is my priority at the moment , It`s improving a heck of alot (if i dont say so myself :oops: ) , it`s deffinately a paradigm shift for me .
Rick Wilson

Post by Rick Wilson »

The list of brave souls who have posted so far:

Marcus
Laird
Rick
Carlos
Robb and company
Diego
Ben
Alan
Mark
Dana

Hijacked from other sites:

Terry
Steve
Paul
Mick


And on the BB test thread:

Debbie
Erin
Louis
Rav
Erik

So who will be the next souls brave enough to put it out there for all to comment on????

:D
benzocaine
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Post by benzocaine »

Jorvick,

Love the grounding excersize! Please, if you can, give more excersizes like this that may help with sanchin grounding.
jorvik

Post by jorvik »

Ben
That exercise was taught to me by a master of Tai-Chi and shaolin 8) .and it is a TC exercise. There are other TC exercises that may help.
stand in a horse stance and circle your waist ( like using a hula-hoop, do both right and left clockwise and anti-clockwise, bend your knee and "push" off your back leg.
bearing in mind that I am only a beginner asking questions and not a master offering solutions :oops: ...........a couple of things spring to mind, firstly you are grounding yourself by doing this pose i.e. Sanchin, you are making yourself a conduit to the ground............rather like a spear stuck into the ground, as in olden times to stop cavalry.that is why you must "Feel" your heels, and also why you must not move.because if you do move or don't feel your heels you are not a conduit and you are doing it wrongly :roll: .........also this could possibly explain the Zenkuts stance resembles the TC stance but is done differently......in TC it's done like you are pushing a car....so your power is being transmitted through your legs from the ground and your arms play no part, so maybe...this type of grounding can be practiced in any stance :? ...............If you get in this stance and extend one arm and do the exercise again, perhaps :)
also I now remember an Aikido exercise were you row a boat.....you know one of those Japanese ones where you have to stand up and sought of push forward then pull back?.......well in that exercise, at each extended position your are supposed to be able to withstand a push 8O ...........so I suppose if you can do that in Sanchin it would be good, also check out
http://www.aikidojournal.com/encycloped ... ntryID=197
and look for stuff on Goza Shioda..........he's a tiny,little guy ( or rather was :cry: ) and he used to bounce big guys off using that technique.some good clips of him there.
Also one thing that Rick said which lit a lightbulb in my head..and this was that Zhing-I was spearfighting..so you have to think of their punches as spear techniques and therefore you have to have that grounding element as well
...hope that helps :wink:
to be practicle I would suggest doing Sanchin against a wall left and right for minutes each side then with one hand extended into the wall each side then maybe just standing "like a tree" arms rounded fingertips touching,legs bent,back straight.for 5 minutes.after a month get a buddy to push your shoulders when you are in Sanchin ( hard)..........see how that grabs you, treat it as a meditation :wink:
Rick Wilson

Post by Rick Wilson »

Kata Kata Kata Kata looking for more Kata. :multi:

Who will post?

Email me your Kata.

If the file is large use “yousendit”.

Or just ask for my snail mail address and you can send me a VHS tape.

I will be happy to host on my web site Kata sent to me. :D

So calling all Kata. 8O

Come on everyone!!!! 8O

The more we see the more we all learn. :D :multi:
2Green
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Post by 2Green »

My friend the computer-genius vid-cam-owning guy says he can do it no sweat (except mine!) so after the holidays I'm going to give it a try.

NM
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