Has Uechi been diluted

[maxwell ainley]

Has uechi-ryu been diluted? , just wondered how thoughts are on that specific topic.

[IJ]

Uechi's been diversified. There's a lot that's little changed and a lot that's got rows of kids in purple belts doing kata they and often the instructor don't know the meaning of. I would call that stuff watered down. But I'm sure the practitioners (if aware of the change) would prefer to call it "adapted." We don't often need to tear out someone's eyes on the street, after all--and we do have exercise and discipline needs to be met. There's room for all...

[Stryke]

Tough Question Max , but probably not difficult to answer .

I think most of the Okinawan styles have been Diluted .

But diluted in what way .

I beleive it`s been diluted to fit within a sport and eductional framework that was put in place by the japanese .

I dont feel it is any longer resembling the art that was designed for self defence and handling a villan or ruffian .

Many of the defensive themes have been removed , the applications lost , techniques simplified to teach large numbers .

The count and Robot Ryu cadence of modern kata , all symptoms of change widespread across all karate .

So the effort to codify karate into a BUDO art , and push it down the same path as Judo and Kendo , and to make it uniform has IMHO profoundly affected Uechi , as it has the other styles .

Having said that hopefully such specialisation may have in fact improved our understanding in some areas . We can but hope

[Guest]

Good post Marcus. Patrick McCarthy would agree with you. so do I for what thats worth.

How can the system not be diluted when a significant number of it's practioners have never landed a shoken on some one. Shokens were removed from one new kata to prevent injury in the bunkai. Ten point was changed to make it safer, a technique removed and no longer taught. How can making it safer and removing techniques not be making it less than it was. People train closed fist punches...what kata did that come from. It comes from sports training drills.

Today we have Uechi seniors in America to whom nukite's are symbolic strikes.

Iron shirt training lost in the world of no contact training.

Marcus we have Dan ranks who after many years of training discovering that they can perform a wauke and move their feet at the same time. I would sugest that when Kanbuns students straightened out the wabodan they were not practicing stand on the spot ryu.

How much class time is devoted to free fighting? How many students avoid sparring nights. If so many are not fighting how can we claim they have the skills they exist only in their minds unproven.

Students today fight a rule set that eliminates many of the weapons of Uechi and eliminates many targets. How can this be viewed as anything but dilution.

I left Uechi for twenty years , I was disapointed with the martial arts in general when I returned. A world of folks playing don't hit me it hurts .Don't hit me in the head it might hurt The average 1st year boxer would destroy these nonfighting fighters we turn out today.

I've trained with nidan/sandan individuals that are afraid of me,and won't train with me. These individuals wouldn't have worn a green belt in Jimmy's dojo. There are Sensei's teaching crap and rewarding it, I know because I've met the product they turn out. This did not happen in the days of my youth. What kind of garbage diluted Ryu will these students pass on?

I have limited skills but I know crap when I find it on the dojo floor.

I suspect the sport karate rules have something to do with it, but I feel this dilution is escalating. We seem to have more and more people in a fighting system that feel they can learn to fight without fighting or getting hit. Sure hope I don't have to depend on one to watch my six.

Look at the people who thought Rick sucker punching his students in a black belt test was a bit over the top.

Someone even commented that they guess they could allow themselves to be punched in the head if they knew there was a black belt in it for them. How many times does your average boxer get hit in the head in a training session?But the karate fighters of today don't want to get hit.

And we wonder why some black belts just turtle and take a beating

I have found "The Karate Shingle" attracts whimps who are afraid to be hit and want to learn to fight without being hit, especially in the head/face. Not a realistic approach to fighting, but many Sensei will feed the illusion and collect the fee's. This pandering to the customer and tailoring the product to the customers demands plays a large part in the dilution.

Fighting is tough stuff and for hard men period. This non violent lotus crap is killing the martial in the martial arts. Not sure if it was the weightlifters and the sand kicking bully or the little guy defeating the big guy sales pitch of karate in the sixties that set the expectation...but today soft folk don't want to do dances that allow them to win they are not interested in resisting partners and if they get their bell rung few of them return.

I'm destined to train with a small group of commited individuals, I won't sell the myth.

End of Rant

[Dana Sheets]

Fighting is tough stuff and for hard men period...I'm destined to train with a small group of commited individuals, I won't sell the myth.

Karate-jitsu - empty handed fighting.

Boxing doesn't make a special claim to self-improvement. From what you've posted, you're saying that Uechi shouldn't either. Uechi is just Chinese/Okinawan boxing and all that body, mind, spirit stuff is just a bunch of bear scat somebody made up awhile back to make some money.

Are you truly just teaching people to fight? No journey? No process? (No women? ) Do your students learn self-discipline, self-reliance? Do they learn when to walk away?

So you show me what you know and I can fight...so what? We stand around and club each other over the head until we're tired and then we go home until we're ready to do it again?

If you were really only teaching fighting don't you think you'd be done by now?

[Guest]

Sorry Dana, make that hard folk

The Do..........well lets just say that if there isn't much martial, the path is of little value, it's first and formost a Martial art. Today many groups have are all cozy with the spiritual path and at the expense of the martial skill.

Just my opinion and observation, not intended to be a diss towards anyone. Just honestly believe the martial arts as a whole are evolving into a group of fluffy wantabees.

I think part of the diluition of the arts was the japanification phase where the do was stressed at the expense of the jutsu.

Jimmy Maloney use to tell us he taught martial arts/ fighting, if you wanted religion that was available up the street at the church. Always worked for me!

[2Green]

I'd love to comment on this topic, but I feel my comments would be taken as offensive by some.
However, I am following with great interest.

Nm

[Guest]

Speak your mind Neil, your entitled to an opinion if it is offensive too others but is not a personal attack then I'd
suggest that others need to grow thicker skin.

[Bill Glasheen]

I'd love to comment on this topic, but I feel my comments would be taken as offensive by some.

{snip}

Rant away! I'll shut up for a bit so I can play referee. This could be interesting...

Sometimes a fellow (man or woman) just needs to vent.

- Bill

[Stryke]

While I agree Laird was leading with his chin forgetting some of the harder sex

Boxing doesn't make a special claim to self-improvement. From what you've posted, you're saying that Uechi shouldn't either. Uechi is just Chinese/Okinawan boxing and all that body, mind, spirit stuff is just a bunch of bear scat somebody made up awhile back to make some money.

Well today it often is just about money , it`s true that MA can build self reliance , integrity , strength or character , In fact all kinds of mind body spirit mumbo jumbo .

BUT !!!! this all came from the confrontation of oneself and reality .

the process of confronting oneself and reality was MARTIAL

testing your limits , what you can handle and how to improve , if not approaching your limits then all your learning is IMHO , matial delusion , mutual ..... er admiration almost slipped there

you can develop through the martial , you can also become a jackass , bully , or cult leader .

Hey Neil like to hear your thoughts even if there lotus , different folks and all , I just will be perfectly honest when I say i think maybe once apon a time folks fought better than they do now ...

And I expect the usual logic of ... well a fighting art isnt neccesarily about fighting ....

[Guest]

Marcus I must commend you on not mentioning the martial
self-flagellation society, you show remarkable control, but I understand the Do is all about control.

[Stryke]

Hey mate better men than me have ended up with no freinds in places ...

we have to be carefull huh

And come on Bill your not short of an opinion , dont always have to be a Voyuer mate

[Rick Wilson]

Dana:

As a person with a small school with a third plus women, I say good catch on the “guy” thing.

But I think you misread Laird’s point by extrapolating things beyond his intent.

Training the martial, and therefore the martial arts, requires you to train people to fight. And yes this includes everything preceding the fighting and in avoiding the fight as well.

It is through this training that you follow the path and take the journey.

Yes, you can learn basic fighting fairly quickly if you are training well, but the in depth study requires – in depth study.

This is what you do after you know how to handle the basic thug.

However, training to handle the 3% takes far greater training.



Do I think Uechi has been diluted?

Here I agree with Marcus that most MAs have been diluted.

When you forget the martial then you dilute the art and you dilute the possibility of taking the proper path. This has very clearly happened.

It began with the introduction of the Karate into schools. The art was changed and the training was changed to fit children. This is appropriate. I do not train children and adults together for all the reasons the training was changed.

Then the training went from the backyard in Okinawa to teaching large groups. This changed once again how things were trained, and as Tomoyose Sensei says in his interview with George, there was a change in how Karate was performed and that change has increased the longer it has gone on.

Then sport came into play. Sport was introduced to Karate in order to accelerate its acceptance in Japan by promoting it through Universities. With sport came a number of changes. Rules for safety were required (rightfully.) The distance at which people fought changed from in close to “sparring distance.” To win you practiced the techniques that WON.

Then, as always, there are the commercial charlatans who stepped in to take advantage of the public’s ignorance. These folk existed even in Musashi’s time. They promote a deliberately diluted art to make money. Not all commercials schools are charlatans but sadly more than should be.

I know one popular chain of Kung Fu schools up here that have students up teaching class in six months. They push the mystic side to cover the lack of truth.

Then there is the simple fact that when you do not train for “fighting” you end up with people teaching who do not have any understanding of how to apply the art they “study” and this degrading of understanding continues as they pass it on and on. This lack of understanding degrades how things are performed thus diluting the art and the effectiveness of the art in ALL regards.

Then there are the legal constraints that are faced in the USA. Where people sue when they get hit in the nose. WHAT THE HELL. IT IS KARATE! YOU MAY WELL GET HIT. But schools have to keep the legalities in mind. Up here in Canada we seem to be pretty much okay with this but you never know.

Then there are those who do not believe the martial is required and teach something “better.” I say better because they believe they have evolved higher than those who perform the “martial.” (Thus being disrespectful to all those who came before creating the “art” they practice.)

These are people who run the greatest risk of turning their school into a cult where the “SENSEI” is an infallible godlike creature. As Patrick McCarthy warns – I hope you are not killed when your sensei is knocked off his pedestal and lands on your head. Having respect for your Sensei is very different than worshiping them. There are those who have come to expect and demand adoration and worship.

(As I sit here writing I am also watching the movie “Lake Placid.” It just reached the point where one character tells the sheriff he knows Karate and to take his best shot. The sheriff decks him. The character gets up complaining that the sheriff did not say “go.” You are supposed to bow and say go. Gee this just seemed very appropriate for this post.)

I know many schools I would never refer people to.

There are “reputable” schools here where one has spread rumours about me liking to hurt my students etc. That is from a big school by the way with an instructor who is commercially successful but in my eyes is lower than dirt.

They also call my school “that crazy fighting school” and I take it as a compliment.

Luckily there are those who are trying to find the martial path within the modern world.


Do I believe there is a spiritual component to martial training?

Absolutely.

I look at the writings of the Chinese masters and the great sword masters of Japan and you read about awareness, energy and spirituality in great depth. However, all of this derives directly of learning how to fight.

At first it is a physical accomplishment. Then the mind enters into play; then energy; then spirituality. The physical, the mind, the energy and the spiritual are not hierarchical, they are a whole. One is not dropped as you accept the next level but rather they are joined. But understand the common thread that runs through it all is the martial.

Can you study mind, body and spirit without the martial? Certainly but it is not a martial art.

I have taken part in many spiritual ceremonies and some that were very physically taxing. They were some of the most rewarding things I have ever done but they weren’t martial arts.

They certainly enhanced my training and opened some other doors so there are practices that may enhance your martial arts but they are not martial arts.

I think I have been rambling for a while now so I will leave it there.

As always the above was my opinion only.

[Stryke]

(As I sit here writing I am also watching the movie “Lake Placid.” It just reached the point where one character tells the sheriff he knows Karate and to take his best shot. The sheriff decks him. The character gets up complaining that the sheriff did not say “go.” You are supposed to bow and say go. Gee this just seemed very appropriate for this post.)

See even the movie writers and general population are in on the joke .

They also call my school “that crazy fighting school” and I take it as a compliment.

they said the same of Mas Oyama Rick , I think your keeping good company , he got discouraged with the watering down too .

[Rick Wilson]

Thanks, Marcus -- we try that is all we can do.

I feel I should post that with open forums like the ones provided here on George’s web site more people can be exposed to more ideas and therefore are better equipped to make their own decisions about what they want to train.

I do not claim to have answers just what I believe at this moment.