Has Uechi been diluted

[jorvik]

Celebrax has been banned in my country( .....or will be) because it is harmful, side effects are heart attacks, stomache bleeds etc...................... so stuff their adverts but as to the Uechi..well there is a lot of crap out there .and there always has been ..........you can accomplish a lot on your own, just training with ferocity and intent....imagine that your loved one is the subject of an unprovoked assualt, that an innocent is attacked for no reason.what would a tiger do, or crane..............then think like a ninja, what would the state do? what would the law do?
also, think about lifting weights .it ill give you a better body for sure......make you more attractive, you will age better, and you will fight better
Holistic approache.. l

[Stryke]

Dont get hung up on the contact thing

people who dont do it envision going in there first day and getting pounded on , Ive trained with Rick and Laird and what they do is progressive and cautious .

The fact is people want little or no contact .

They expect to learn how to fight without getting hit

when you swim you get wet

when you fight you get hit

Yes I`m sure theres been folks whove gone overboard in conditioning , but it`s balance like everything else

So even if the contacts gone , and wether or not you agree with it , what about technique ?

has technique or principle or strategy been diluted ?

[Stryke]

Ok on topic

I think things have been diluted .

And I`m a beginner in Uechi , but I see teaching tools such as posting for the Wauke as detrimental to postional strategy , The myth that a Wauke even is a block (personal opinion) etc

thoughts ?

did Kanbun teach posting ? , am I just off track ?

[IJ]

The wauke IS a block. But I agree--it is also many many other things and I believe those other things are better uses. Perhaps the cleanest solution would be to eradicate the notion that a block is purely defensive. Then the wauke is an (attacking) block AND x, y, and z.

[PS: In defense of Celebrex, yeah, it seems to cause heart attacks, and it does cause stomach bleeding, but LESS stomach bleeding than the ibuprofen at any corner drug store. The ads P me O because they imply its a better painkiller, which it ain't shown to be.]

[Stryke]

well part of it can be a guard so could be a block etc .

but the block mentatlity is a part of the watering down of MA IMHO , and its pervasive in Uechi too

I think teaching blocks as receiving techniques is far better , receiving energy .

[Rick Wilson]

Norm: “I've never shied away from contact, but at age 44, I don't heal like I did 20 years ago. Should I fight and train at age 44 the way I did at age 24?”

Karate is a personal journey Norm and all training should be governed accordingly. If I was younger I would give the MMA bouts a go but at 48 there is no way.

Dana: “What I can speak to is witnessing an inordinate amount of pounding of people in Sanchin, teachers who've said that if a woman can't do the drills the way they do them they don't belong, and the overbearing presence of an attitude that people should toughen up damn quick or walk out the door of the school.”

I agree and our conditioning includes how to absorb and move with a blow. I believe conditioning should be slow and gradual.

Mike: “Regarding cultural change, back in the 80's my Jujutsu sensei removed the gi grabs from many of the techniques. Why? Because in his work as a bouncer and bodyguard when he used them he'd end up with a handful of loud thin polyester cloth and no bad guy. In class he even ditched the rugged judo gi for a lighter karate one and t-shirts that could rip. I don't think he was diluting the style but keeping it current as a functional art.”

Good for him. Gis are a recent development.

Josann: “Don't forget that uechi is one of the best systems for fighting. Low kicks, natural stance, hands up, body conditioning etc. It adapts itself to real defense if one chooses to pursue that aspect. “

AGREE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

David: “So in a nutshell – I think it makes sence, if you're teaching a fighting style then the emphasis on application should come out of the form, in order to gain the most benefit of that style.”

AGREE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Ian: “But here's the kicker--first, they were unaware of the dilution they'd done. In fact they were convinced, despite knowing nothing of Uechi, that there were no open handed techniques and that the grabbing I was doing was an Americanization because karate only uses the fist.”

There you go!



I think training can be done safely yet with intent.

I believe strongly in progressive training.

I believe is working out of the Uechi Kata for applications.

I believe in Uechi.

I believe in the martial path.

I do NOT believe in martial arts without the martial.

[David Swanson]

I want to add a caveat as I may have seemed somewhat against contact which I'm not against. My first line I said I took both sides of the issue but went off on a contact rant. I also may start to ramble since I'm trying to hurry a thought through while on office time. : )

I don't want to be too redundant and also I've acknowledged the increase of contact with experience etc.

One of the master Uechi's god bless me for not knowing which one, was big on Seisan bunki and a drill which my instructor called command kumite, Master Uechi had a different name obviously the right name and I think it bagan with a "J". Anyways, you must at all times use correct form to attack with whatever you want, explosively with intent to make contact. The defender has to defend and counter using good form etc. etc. If you don't get out of the way you get clocked. Also that was done at the advanced level.

I've been to a school which calls itself Uechi, started the class with excersices, a couple of katas with no correction followed by kumities and bunkis which were completely anticipated to the point where the defenders moved at the same time if not before strikes where given. Was overly correographed. A dance routine followed by freestyle that didn't look like Uechi. Where you have white belts wearing head gear and just throwing bombs without any technique with unfortunately, the higher ranks not looking much better.

4 out of 6 schools I went to lacked a good foundation the 5th one had actually the highest level students with attitude where they all thought they were right and they did everything different. I'm actually going to try a 7th and see what it's like. If I didn't move, I'd just go back to my first one.

So there's the control issue, contact added progressively etc. once you have some skills.
The dilution in technique in those instances are not teaching any strict technique for a base to develop in the first place.
Leaving out the roots, the form, giving out rank with horrifying form, emphasizing sparring that doesn't look like karate. Yin and Yang is minus one or the other to an extreme.

I've been hammered in Sanchin, I've been tested with one finger. I don't mind being hit in general (unless my opponent is REALLY BIG, that seems to just go right to the bone) I'm 6'2". I like realism and realistic form based application.

Perhaps I've only witnessed extreme forms of dilution or dilusion. Westerners are supposedly impatient and have to feel they're learning things, making progress and the only way is by doind a bunch of different things and not nessicarilly focusing on simple repetitive things that are core. The basis for the end.

If you play a guitar, and learn from a music store, they'll give you a baby book to pluck songs from. If you learn from a Berkley instructor, you won't play a song for months, you won't even plug it in to hear sound, you'll sit in front of your TV watching your favorite show night after night for 2 - 3 hours fingering the scale, over and over again. That takes extreme patience. You won't play any songs but your fingers will get stronger, your positioning will get precise and after time you play the scale effortlessly without looking at the frets. By the time you do actually play music all you're doing is learning the combinations of notes which you've trained yourself to play clearly.

2 different means to similar ends, but the patient route weeds out bad eggs, wanabees, etc. leaves a better base of commited, mindful practitioners. Atleast people with skills.

[Bill Glasheen]

Good summarization, Rick, and thanks for weighing in. It is appreciated on many levels.

Now that folks have had an opportunity to express themselves, I'll share some of my own feelings on the matter. They are not simple, and these thoughts are evolving. And I expect many fall into that category, if not that specific point in the opinion spectrum.

This is straight from the heart. Take it for what it is, and nothing more.

* The greatest thing we still have are the kata. Like fantastic reference books that may collect dust when not used, they still contain all the vital material whenever the student is ready for the information contained within. No dilution here.

* Today we have improved means of communication. So ideas that add depth to Uechi principles are being propagated faster than they ever were. No dilution here.

* Today we have improved training methods AVAILABLE to us. Instead of stones on the end of sticks, we have dumbbells and lat pulldown machines. Some of it is foo foo training that addresses form at the expense of athletic function (e.g. Nautilus only training). But we also have climbing gyms, modern kami devices that you can order off the back pages of JAMA, books about plyometrics, and several generations experienced in Olympic weightlifting methods. No dilution here.

* Today we have better nutrition and medical care. We make bigger and healthier bangers that last longer. I'm fifty and I still kick some ass here and there. And although kids today are taller than me, I am a giant compared to Kanbun's generation. No dilution here.

* Today we have a better understanding AVAILABLE to us about the psychology of maiming and killing. No dilution here.

* Today we have a broader force continuum. And at least in my neck of the woods, we are learning how to get the Uechi to fit into the spectrum from VSD to semiautomatics and more. No dilution here.

But here are some shortcomings...

* We have experts such as Darren Laur who know how to train LEOs fast. Same to some extent for the military. But not every Darren Laur is a Rory Miller. Not every experts churning out officers on the quick has the appreciation for deeper and deeper levels of martial ability like Rory who simultaneously studies and appreciates a classic killing art that takes time to master. There is good. And then there is GOOD. And then there is ohmygodI'mgonnaschitmypants GOOD. A Bruce Siddle and a Darren Laur necessarily has to dumb fighting down to palm thrusts and simple grappling techniques. Can't use those shokens to thrust? To grab someone and friggin claw the flesh off their bodies while controlling them? Bullhockey! And no, my expression “Uechi pointy things” is not a pejorative. It’s who we are, whenever we have enough confidence in ourselves to make something of ourselves. Don't believe in the product, and your Uechi-bashing preachings become a self-fulfilling prophecy. THIS IS DILUTION OF OUR TRADITIONAL ART.

* There is something to be said for being a little bit hungry, and hurting just a little. My Dad kept me hungry (literally) as I made my way though school and my early jobs, even though he could have spoiled me. Because of it, I learned to make it on my own. My first martial arts instructor taught without any Safe-T-CrapTM that keeps the goddamn f***ing lawyers at bay. I remember training with a sick feeling in my stomach. Today I appreciate the plusses and minuses of that. I remember getting hurt, and getting over it. We were allowed to get just short of falling off the proverbial cliff, but the hand was there to keep us alive. And I had the opportunity to learn on my own, make my own mistakes, and find my own way. Much of today's generation is just a little too protected, and things are given to them just a little too easily. And I don't see this generation necessarily appreciating it all. THIS IS DILUTION OF OUR TRADITIONAL ART.

* We have a great sports tradition. But making Uechi safe for competition is like neutering the cat. I'm glad folks learn to test their mettle, but sometimes I wish we wouldn't call that karate. The jiu-jitsu people had the sense to call it judo. Now the BJJ people are here telling us that THEY are the real deal. In a steel cage. Facing just one opponent. With lots of rules, even in NHB competition. Etc., etc... THIS IS DILUTION OF OUR TRADITIONAL ART.

* We have folks practically wondering what underwear Kanbun wore. IMO, it isn't the person or what they did. It's what they sought. I'm not an assembly line person. I was born for R&D. I'd a lot rather be discovering than copying. THIS IS DILUTION OF OUR TRADITIONAL ART.

That's the short of it from my humble point of view.

- Bill

[maxwell ainley]

Thanks Dave ,
For insights into quality in those schools ,plus your own points of view .

In any craft instruction methods there will be patient folk and the not so patient [patience was integral to kanbuns method and others ,basically if the class is conducted and patience is a primary ,a overspill will take effect into the atmosphere ,but sometimes a natural use of impatience brought into teaching at the right moment can create a new effect or impression on the student .
But a total disregard for the use of patience ,can open the flood gates of dilution [the more one rushes the less one sees and the more confused you will be ]

[MikeK]

[JimHawkins]

All martial arts have been diluted - it's just a question of how much is left of a given art. It is believed that some arts were never actually completed and therefore were never complete, then later were diluted so you have two problems there. The Japanese styles have further issues because of what some here term Japanification. Whatever the cause many of the Japanese arts were intentionally changed (defanged) and personally I don't think you can get back what was removed in those cases unless you were able to consult the founder or an authentic full disciple of the system.

It is well known that in Chinese martial arts that only one disciple was passed the entire system. Other than the main disciple of a system who is personally charged with passing the system on no one else is likely to have the depth of knowledge, forms passed to a true disciple were passed with detailed information concerning correct form expression and specific explanations of content. However, complete system knowledge consisted of much, much more than simply forms and their understanding. The forms are only a starting point, a very basic blueprint for any MA and TCMA styles contain many more training tools and ideas that must also be passed correctly to make the art viable.

If Wing Chun had been passed with only the forms and no clear meaning for them, I can tell you WC would be a very dead art. No one would ever figure out what the movements were for because they would have no contact training reference point or accurate explanations to give the system’s tools life. Tiny subtle movements used in Chi Sao would be the subject of much debate, which would be mostly far, far removed from what was intended. Even today students must be carefully guided and reminded how to use the concepts and tools of the system and that is with the original training progression in place.

Without the correct training progression it would be all guesswork. Students would have no idea what kind of energy was used, what the concept of these odd movements were for, much less how to apply these mysterious movements in combat. If the applications and drills were gone from the system I’m quite sure that people would see the movements in the forms through the eyes of what they did know. If they were Ju-Jitsu people they’d see Ju-Jitsu, if Aikido then they’d see Aikido, if Boxers then they would see Boxing moves, but they would all be dead wrong.

Tools used for the inside with contact would no longer work because folks would never realize that feeling, not sight must be employed to make the tools, techniques, concepts work, but without Chi Sao and the original training progression, having only unexplained or estimated explanations of the forms, there is no accurate direction, no accurate explanation, no path to get to the truth of what the system had really intended.

I think it’s critical in MA today that people know what they have or don’t have. Searching and studying is great so long as people realize that they are embarking on what is very much a search as much as a study. How do you get back from there and how do you know when you’ve arrived or if you’re far off the mark? Does it matter? Is it worth it? Only the educated individual can decide.

[MikeK]

A post by Harry Cook that I lifted from e-budo. Might have something to do with the topic.

The transmission of bunkai/applications has always been a bit erratic. Mr Vail points out that Itosu's understanding was poor, (as I said in my book), and concludes that Funakoshi would be equally limited in this area. However it must be remembered tyhat Funakoshi trained with a number of teachers, he lists them in his books, and so it is not unlikely that he picked up some applications from others. In fact it may be the reason why he sought out instruction. Certainly this was a feature of the early Shotokan, see the story of Yoshitaka returning to Okinawa to learn new kara and applications, and Nakayama tells of visiting Mabuni to learn various kata.
Bunkai must always be seen in the light of ri-ai: if the applications are developed/evolved in this way then they are valid. It really doesn't matter if Pat McCarthy has developed his own applications (or anyone else for that matter). If they work against a non-compliant opponent then they are valid interpretations rooted in the kata, and in fact are the sign of a mature karateka who understands his art. This I believe has always been the approach of Okinawan and Chinese forms of combat. Certainly this is the way that many Japanese classical ryu function.
It is useful to see kata as a kind of irritant, driving the student to develop some realistic understanding of the meaning of the techniques, kind of like a physical koan. The ultimate touchstone is the reality test. So for example seeing the jump in Heian 5 as a way of leaping over a sword or staff, then disarming tha attacker is plain daft and ignores the reality of the weapon, but seeing it as a way of practicing an explosive body action which could be used as a throw is a lot more likely, in my opinion.
Please remember that Funakoshi shows a series of throws in his first books which can easily be referred to kata. I think that there is enough evidence in Funakoshi's first 2 books, Motobu's works, the 2 books published in the 1930s by Tokyo University and Mabunis books to justify regarding thows, locks, takedowns etc etc as parts of traditional karate training.
Harry Cook

[benzocaine]

Ok on topic

I think things have been diluted .

And I`m a beginner in Uechi , but I see teaching tools such as posting for the Wauke as detrimental to postional strategy , The myth that a Wauke even is a block (personal opinion) etc

thoughts ?

did Kanbun teach posting ? , am I just off track ?

Since you asked.

Master Kanei Uech (who Kanbun entrusted to the family style) taught many people to post. Is it a dilution, or is it a way to teach people to wauke properly? Our teacher seems to find that posting is of some benefit.. probably because his/my teacher posted when he trained in Okinawa for 2 years as a US Marine(well not probably.. that's the reason why). Did Kanbun post? Unfortunately few are left who remember.. but take a look at Alan Dollars book page 395. They post. What's their lineage? Shinjo Family?

[Randy Pelletier]

I don't think anyone can truly say whether Uechi has been diluted unless they have experienced several schools which each teaching their own version of Uechi. I have seen some schools teach the same set of drills over and over without exploring the deeper elements. You come in and do the warm-up, then rank kata, then kumite, then bunkai, and then time is up. Next class comes in and you do the same thing. This continues week after week and eventually you get promoted. In my opinion, that is dilution as you are reading from a play book which leaves no room for interpretation.

I say this from the perspective of only been in one school but seeing the evolution of where I started and what Rick was teaching us back then to where we are now. I don't think I would even recognize some of the old stuff and if I was asked to perform kumite right now, I would look pathetic.

This is because Rick, the school, and the attitude of where we want to go has evolved to a point where what we are taught and practice with now unleashes so much more than the strict play book offers.

Rick's school does seem to have this reputation of being a fighting school and I agree with Rick that it is a compliment for that is why I joined in the beginning. I did not join to look pretty in a competition or to achieve rank without understanding true application. Yes we do get banged up ocassionally but it is without ego or maliciousness and the students usually ask to see the particular move again because it was very effective. We are also extremely sensitive to each person's ability of what they can take.

Learning to fight without ever getting hit or hitting others is not realistic. That is equivalent to learning how to play hockey without a stick. You can be the best skater on the team but when the puck drops, if you don't know how to handle it, you are useless.

I agree that there is dilution but not if you have the right teacher, environment and fellow students who are there to explore and get bumped along the way. Uechi is the foundation of Rick's school but would probably not be recognized by many if they dropped in. I am not saying that is better than others so please do not misinterpret that statement. What I mean is each school must be it's own judge of whether it is diluting the style and providing the students with what they are paying for.

I think it is great when I see folks like Laird and Marcus drop by with a complete open mind to learn and also to share their expertise with the class. We all have something to bring to the dojo and encouragement of change and trying something different is not the dilution of Uechi but rather the enhancement of it. To restrict teachings to a few uppity ups that demand respect and do not accept feedback from the lower ranks is the dilution.

In my case, Uechi has evolved greatly with the help of Rick and his constant exploration of new ideas and applications. Dilution in our school?, I can't see it happening.

[Stryke]

Thanks Ben for bringing up the post , I`m keen to learn more about it

Nice post Randy