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PostPosted: Thu Jan 06, 2005 7:49 am 
Insult or are we just thin skinned?


To Jeff (Mills75).

You posted:

“I have to admit some may think it's learning and interesting conversation to me all it serves to do is take time away from real training that I believe can only be done in a dojo. and please don't think I'm putting the forums down”

I posted:

Man how many times do people have to post here that the forums are something we do AFTER we come off the dojo floor.

I posted nothing else that indicated any offence at the rest of your opinions.

Then you post:

“Thank you Rick and Marcus and I respect these thoughts and if I put down forums i didn't mean to be disrespectful cause I do respect all of you”

Okay, sounds good, but then you post:

“what one see's as a put down many would call constructive and helpful and advocate having thicker skin and realizing that it's only people sharing views.or is that only for some who subscribe to the same views most of the time. just a test to see if the playing field is level.When George Mattson asks for welcomeness and share's a certain point of view I see him called soft and out of touch and there is talk of ninety year old arguements about Uechi and it's organizations.I said what I said for a reason as a test to see if I would be the goat or the champion of free speech and thick skin.some say whatever and it's always heralded as being good for the cause and others say different and it's out of touch and a put down.from what i have seen in some posts a put down again like this post is a matter of opinion.and really not to be disrespectful truly but it seems as i have read numerous times on other threads to be offended or whatever is all dependant upon the eyes you are looking through so really I just thought i was practicing proper protocol.”

So which is it? :?

The “I meant no offence” or the “I am the martyr of free speech and all the rest of you should get a thicker skin and not take offence and stop picking on those with different opinions,”

Because that second paragraph really expounds on the “no offence” comment of the first one. :roll:

To repeat, it is my opinion that your comment insults those who train hard and THEN take time to post on these forums.

If you simply said you think the real training take place on the dojo floor -- okay.

But that is NOT what you said.

You said "some" (I read: The people like me who take time out of their lives to post) …

may “think” posting on these forums is learning and interesting conversation (I read: Foolish us because it isn't) …

to me all it serves to do is take time away from real training that I believe can only be done in a dojo. (I read: because clearly we are not doing so if we take time away to post on these forums.)

To repeat – I find that offensive.

I post on these forums, so I am one of the “some.”

I do think they are learning. Foolish me.

I do think they are interesting conversation. foolish me.

AND I do so after coming off the dojo floor, so don’t go telling me where I should be doing my real learning. :roll:

So, you bet you insulted me.

 So how have I misread these words? :?

 Please explain what exactly else they could mean? :?

 Oh and I guess I am also curious that if the only real training takes place on the dojo floor and we poor fools only "think" learning takes place on these forums – What they heck are you here for then? :lol:

And understand my poor thin skin has managed to (barely :roll: ) withstand all your other opinions. :lol:


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 06, 2005 12:58 pm 
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I guess we all have "thin skin" at times and feel "insulted" on occasion.


Quote:
To Jeff (Mills75).

You posted:

“I have to admit some may think it's learning and interesting conversation to me all it serves to do is take time away from real training that I believe can only be done in a dojo. and please don't think I'm putting the forums down”


When I first read this, I got the same "rise" you did Rick. I get the same remark from literally hundreds of people through e-mail over the years, as reasons they don't post. However, the remark generally follows something like: "I get real upset when I read the forums and therefore stay off them".

Hence. . . When I read Jeff's remark, I sensed that he wanted to say what the others (who emailed me) said to me, but didn't have the courage to say publicly, as did Jeff.

Instead of being accused of being a "wus", Jeff received a couple of intelligent responses, which may have surprised him and which prompted him to say. . .

Quote:
“Thank you Rick and Marcus and I respect these thoughts and if I put down forums i didn't mean to be disrespectful cause I do respect all of you”


Then Jeff gets brave and wants to clarify the "real" reason for posting and writes the following, which is (IMHO) an attempt to represent all those newer Uechi students who have been upset over things said on the forums:

Quote:
“what one see's as a put down many would call constructive and helpful and advocate having thicker skin and realizing that it's only people sharing views.or is that only for some who subscribe to the same views most of the time. just a test to see if the playing field is level.When George Mattson asks for welcomeness and share's a certain point of view I see him called soft and out of touch and there is talk of ninety year old arguements about Uechi and it's organizations.I said what I said for a reason as a test to see if I would be the goat or the champion of free speech and thick skin.some say whatever and it's always heralded as being good for the cause and others say different and it's out of touch and a put down.from what i have seen in some posts a put down again like this post is a matter of opinion.and really not to be disrespectful truly but it seems as i have read numerous times on other threads to be offended or whatever is all dependent upon the eyes you are looking through so really I just thought i was practicing proper protocol.”


So was Jeff being disrespectful in saying what he did? Was his various comments confusing and conflicting?

As a person who "attempts" to read between the lines and ignore spelling errors and grammatical screw-ups (since I'm also guilty of making many mistakes in these areas), I try to read (percieved insulting/conflicting) posts a couple of times, to see if certain words and phrases can be misunderstood or interpreted in different ways. Then, after putting the post through this filtering system, I generally have at least a couple of possible interpretations for the post. When I reply, it may be as a martial artist or in many cases, it will be as the site administrator.

So. . . Rick, as "administrator", I read Jeff's post/s as being a bit confusing and disjointed and emotional attempt to contribute to the forums. He is both a new student and a "white belt poster", so I'd hope that we all give him some slack while encouraging him to re-read what he writes to make sure people don't read the wrong intent into his words.

And finally, as "senior posters", we should absolutely, let new posters know the rules and help them (in an encouraging manner) understand how words can hurt and insult. . . even when not intended to be taken that way.

Oh yes. . . I'm pleased to see this forum being used for this purpose.

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 06, 2005 2:43 pm 
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To that end many new posters forget that their intended message and the inferred message end up being totally different.

When I went on the women's friendship tour I was told I was nothing like my online personality. Huh. Funny that.

They said they expected me to be gruff, completely serious, and unsmiling. Instead they found out what happy little sprite and how easy going I am (to a point).

So no matter how much we work at it - the written word is going to be a difficult way get a point across. It takes skill and craft and practice to learn what kind of language is pretty neutral and what language will spark a flame.

I like to use the example of when I lived in France. In french when you want to make a suggestion you say "Why don't you buy your meat at the Deli? They have the best." When you say that expression, you frown a little bit.

A French person understands that you're offering a suggestion. Say the same thing the same way to an American and they think you'll telling them what they should do and that what they've been doing isn't good. Which isn't always welcome.

In American English we would say "You might want to try buying your meat at the deli - I've found the meat to be better there." So we use slightly different words that are more conditional and we nod yes while we're saying it - to show how positive we're being.

Sadly - the forums don't allow for this. So long time users know to do things like "Rant Mode On" or identify themselves as playing devil's advocate, or use the smiley faces etc. They've learned how to make their post on the forums more conditional. New poster's haven't.

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 Post subject: Well...
PostPosted: Fri Jan 07, 2005 2:16 am 
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Well guys hey I don't know quite what to say or how to say it so eloquently and yes at this point in time I'm younger and not an expert by far on Uechi which I believe some have thouroughly pointed out and we all know by now and yes this is true as I have said time and again and again. I will enjoy reading the forums from now on as I do think they are of benefit and I do respect the people and all the people on here to make that abundantly clear and to Rick my apologies if you took offense I did not mean for that to be the case.I respect you and your teaching and always enjoyed your views and no guys it's not being a wus that is the truth of the matter.Anyhow all I was saying is in truth there seems to be so much bickering back and forth (IMHO) that yes i could see how newer students could have alot of confusion and questions? George was right in saying you all are very repsected in martial arts and people do who aren't such experts follow your words and guidance.I really fail to see my post as either brave or wus or whatever I say what I wish to get accross and express my opinion without giving that any thought as I thought these forums were about.As of now I have decided to not post any longer or participate in discussion because as Dana put so well alot of times you can't really get the true meaning of what someone is saying through a keyboard and typed words.All I hope for even as a young student whether most think I'm full of spit is for the promotion of Uechi since I've heard that the martial arts begin and end with respect and I believe in this so I hope it grows in the positive and is not dissected and torn apart piece by peice from one sensei or organization to another.Anyhow best wishes guys and I'll enjoy reading the opinions as always..

Jeff


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 07, 2005 3:30 am 
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I had to address also that I never wrote my opinions in an attempt to please any particular person as rick said.. I have barely stood your comments to this point or something to that effect..well to be honest although I do respect him as everyone people have to understand that they were never written in the first place to please or appease what you see as right.I was writing my belief's and not yours.I wasn't saying i was the champion of thick skin either i was saying i believe most when they blast people claim that in their defense and offer that to others to have thicker skin when they do the very same thing I am accused of.I was saying i see alot of do as i say and not as i do..spit in your face and smile. spit in mine and be offended is how i see it..I just see double standards.this is an example of what i see when i look at some posts to be honest :roll: that is how it is alot of times.and then people accuse you of being disrespectful.I see people say martial arts is made to mess people up and hey more power to ya but some don't see it's main goal as this and hey you're a wus if you see it this way and not this way..that's how much of it comes accross to me in some things i've seen so what can I say at least i'm being honest about how i feel and this is not always the case but I have felt that some posts reflected this feeling.I saw in one post justin or whatever his name is basically threatened over a gun issue and i asked myself is this martial arts and what it teaches and reflects? a guy gives an opinion on guns and someone tells him i'll see you later out somewhere ? it's not martial arts to me when that happens over a guys opinion.He who has no sin cast the first stone my friend.and I will no longer post not because I'm a wus or feel that i can't defend or even should defend for some reason how i see things.But to me it's something i will choose not to do any longer.I hope truly that this post is clear enough to express how i feel..

Jeff


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 07, 2005 6:21 am 
Jeff:

George suggests some comments on posting to avoid people interpreting your comments as insults, but since you no longer care to post you may no longer care to hear them.

In any case here they are:

Point one:

Dana’s posted the smiling faces and laughing faces etc are intended to point out the comment is not serious?

You will note the rolling eyes in my post right after “barely” and the LOL face at the end therefore stating it is not serious and a joke.

So your comment: “I had to address also that I never wrote my opinions in an attempt to please any particular person as rick said.. I have barely stood your comments to this point or something to that effect” is therefore erroneous.

Point Two:

I use logic when interpreting posts.

What is the logic that caused me to bring this comment over to this forum?

Hypothetically Laird posts the following two statements:

1) Rick sorry if you misread my post I did not mean to offend.

Then in the next paragraph:

2) People who misread my posts are A-Holes.

Logic:

People who misread my posts are A-holes.
Rick misread my post.
Therefore Rick is an A-hole.

You posted:

1) Rick sorry if you took offence to my post none was intended.

Then you post:

2) People who take offence to posts need to get thick skins and get used to opposing opinions etc.

Logic:

People who take offence to posts are thin skinned and can’t take posts of opposing views etc.
Rick took offence to my posts.
Therefore Rick is thin skinned and can’t take people opposing his opinions etc.

As these were all in the same post I read them in conjunction to each other.

Therefore, this is the logic I applied when interpreting your second paragraph of that post and it is why I brought this over to this forum.

To me the second paragraph basically negated the comment you did not intend to offend.


Point Three:

When you start a post or a paragraph using a person’s then the assumption is the post or paragraph is aimed at that person.

You start a paragraph directed at me and then accuse people of spitting in other people’s faces.

The progression implies you believe I do this, perhaps you do.

If you want to address me on an issue – fine address me, but do expect a response.

If you want to address a different topic then perhaps do include it in the same paragraph or post.


Point Four:

There are certain things that will get a reaction. I try hard to stay away from discussing the Yakusoto Kumites unless certain posts are made because they are a touch point.

People dropping in to the forums and telling us we are all wasting our time and should just get on the dojo floor and train is another one of those tiresome posts. This is how I interpreted your original comment.

So, Jeff post again or not post again it is up to you.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Jan 07, 2005 6:32 am 
Hey Marcus Ricks started the Great A hole debate again !

:multi: :multi: :multi:


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 07, 2005 8:23 am 
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I am saying this is what I feel happens that most on the forums as i could have swore that I read give the advice that if you misread posts then you should have thick skin and take no offense.

I'm saying not everyone is the same and some people will take offense and not feel it's about thick skin or anything such as this.

As I said my post that caused this was playing devils advocate to see how it would be received. if the advice that alot give would still be the advice given or if suddenly i would be a jerk who cared not for how others felt.I felt this standard seemed to vary personally so I tested it.

point being I'm a fairly new student of Uechi yes and I see some folks who say oh there are people who hate us and I take that meaning your organization and they will always hate us..see I don't even know who the heck us are i haven't been around long enough to know these past fueds or whatever.I think it's unfair that alot of these old wounds or whatever are passed on to newer students through something that is supposed to promote the future of a common art.My teacher has links to this site and never tells me to hate anyone.As a newer student it was a sincere wish to say I wish no matter what you personally saw in your early days of uechi to please not pass any kind of lingering resentment for whatever reason onto the younger generation who was never involved in whatever may have took place.

just the simple point that alot say to put out welcome mats and then it seems always here and there you find someone saying welcome even though we know you hate us and always will.I just don't understand really and as i said my only wish was to show an example of what i believed i was viewing at times.like a how would you feel type scenario. like welcome all you haters and outsiders good to see ya..
Personally I don't hate anyone..For the record.

Jeff


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Jan 07, 2005 10:23 am 
Quote:
Jeff received a couple of intelligent responses


Sometimes I even surprise myself . :D

I dont feel this is a full out flame war , all have to learn the nature of the forum , I havent worked it out yet :roll:

My reaction was very similar to Ricks , I think it`s all in all a non issue now though , I wasnt highjacked but I tend to get that way sometimes ....

I guess it`s all just another form of conditioning .

I kind of think along the lines of be prepared to receive in kind the nature of your posts .

And Laird ass for the Ahole debate ......... 8)

lets just say none of us are short of em :lol: :lol: :lol:

Disclaimier :

and for the record this post is meant in lighthearted good natured mode

No K words , No dance references , no personal attacks , or slings and arrows of outrageous fortune were used in it`s production . :?

I didnt even mention tradition ....


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 Post subject: ok guys..
PostPosted: Fri Jan 07, 2005 1:11 pm 
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Well I can't help what you may be left with as I feel I really have tried to make some kind of a serious point and again
I can't help how you end up seeing it but I know I didn't mean it as something that was putting you all down and I do respect ya believe it or not whether it's believed or not.
It wasn't meant to start a flame war or anything of that nature.I said this a couple posts ago but this is my final post so I do thank you and wish you the best.


Jeff


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 07, 2005 6:13 pm 
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Jeff,

Keep posting. Remember that we are all just talking about words here. Sticks and stones and all that.

The whole point of these forums is to encourage debate. If we all agreed about everything we might as well go home.

You took a stab at playing devil's advocate and saw the strong response to your post. Does that mean you should stop posting? No.

Again - what you intent to say and what people infer can be very different. That's why we can edit our posts and why we can replay again to clarify our meaning.

You've been able (by posting again) to make clear that you didn't have bad intentions, that you weren't trying to insult anyone, and you've apologized if your words were taken in an insulting manner.

What folks are trying to do now is show you why they were insulted by what you said so the next time you post you'll be able to get a sense of how to avoid it...unless you mean to rattle the cages.

So please don't get discouraged and don't just walk away because things started off weird. The more you post the better you'll become as a writer and the easier it will be to get your point across.

Just because you're new these forums means that you're new. That's it. Everyone is entitled to share their viewpoints and join in the discussions in the most civil way they can.

As the expression goes...we all put our pants on one leg at a time. 8)

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 07, 2005 9:04 pm 
Absolutley Dana :)

good post


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 Post subject: Thanks Dana
PostPosted: Sat Jan 08, 2005 3:33 am 
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I agree with you If I am allowed then yes I will take more time then from now on to consider how I say what I say and how it comes accross as really I don't want to offend anyone and this is the truth and I really hope I didn't create any lasting impression with my experiment that I don't respect the fine teaching of everyone here and the good advice that is given just wanted to say I have no ill will towards anyone and that post was just to test the waters even though it may have tested them in the wrong manner and it may have so I apologize if it did.I like the whole gang here though we may not always agree and I am afterall a beginner and sometimes as a beginner my frustration may vent in the wrong manner and it's no excuse but in this case it probably more than likely did.It's my own responsibility to interpret what i read and know that it's something positive and in that mission so far at times I have failed so I won't give up as you say and I'll work harder to become more understanding and better as I go.In some crazy way if it makes any sense I was hoping something helpful and useful would come out of my lousy post that was a benefit so it was a poor attempt to be constructive.

Jeff


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 Post subject: Good for you Jeff. . .
PostPosted: Sat Jan 08, 2005 3:07 pm 
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Posting, as a new martial artist and stranger to the group is indeed a challange. After a time, people will become familiar with your way of communicating and surprisingly, will be able to "read between the lines of your posts" and will interpreting most of what you say in the correct manner. (what you intended to say)

The internet is relatively new and frightening to the majority of people. Once a person tests the waters (like yourself) and feels that they were "shot down" by the "regulars", most will go back into hiding. The forums appear to lose one person, but in fact hundreds who might have been tempted to post, will in fact be lost.

Be strong and approach the forums as you would a difficult testing for rank at your dojo. We are just fighting with words and to my knowledge, no one has been sued or injured yet.

Who knows. . . Your survival here may motivate a few of those hundreds of "hiders" to come out of their lurking status and get involved. It would be nice to see more people represented here.

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 Post subject: Amen again..
PostPosted: Sun Jan 09, 2005 3:14 am 
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Thanks George my lousy post in a way no matter how strange it may seem was an attempt to show others who may not post for whatever reason that there is resolution and understanding if you work at it like our martial arts studies. I made a bad attempt to attract others and never to take away honestly.I did it in a poor way as I'm not the best writer by a longshot but my intent truly was to bring people out and hopefully have their voices heard also so everyone can talk and understand one another.I honestly feel that if you try to understand someone here on the forums they will also try to understand you and overall it's a positive thing even though everyone gets frustrated or misunderstood sometimes.I was not ostricized or condemned but only questioned about remarks so it's a fine example that everyone is seeking clarification and understanding here.I threw out alot of dark clouds and did not recieve rain on my head but recieved rays of light through the clouds so I think my test showed a good example of a fine martial arts site where people don't seek to put you down but only seek to understand and express along with you their ideas and thoughts.I am happy with the conclusion because I feel this story had a positive ending as I had hoped.Thanks alot truly..

Jeff


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