"Work-hardened" (a metallurgical term) crept into my mind during an extended snow-shoveling session (Zen moment), and I began to wonder about the differences, if any, between bodies which are "work-hardened" and those which are "exercise-hardened".
I don't consider work and exercise to be the same; exercise prepares one for work--all work is not good exercise.
Some folks are just plain tough from a lifetime of hard work...I was thinking of ancient Okinawa.
Then I wondered how many construction workers would come home after a long day on the jobsite and hit the treadmill or weight bench.
Of course exercise is more targetted and specific, but is the end result of an exercise-hardened body different in any respects to the work-hardened body?
Is exercise-hardening better, perhaps? (Depends on goals?)
I'm posting this topic here because quite a few health-related topics get discussed on this forum.
Offer up, y'all.
NM
"work-hardened"
Moderator: Available
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Stryke
Good question
both can be good , Ive always done physical work and gym , they can complimet or have negative effects .
Physically heavy work can begreat for strength training , but A lot of work youd imagine isnt necessarilly heavy but endurance , this can really hinder gaining power , you just dont have the recovery time .
Best work strentgh training is actually at the moment Ive been putting up steel fences helping a freind , digging holes and making/moving concrete , I`m feeling very strong .
I havent had the chance to be at the gym much of late , but My lifts are going up , so physical work does count .
Ive always had tough hands , but what builder/carpenter/caninetmaker doesnt , I take this for granted , I dont skin my knuckles on a bag , maybe its a combination ....
Gym training is different , i`m going to agree With Bill on this and suggest olympic lifts ... My base routine actually is more power lifting type stuff (though i cant compare with those folk) , I like movements that use free weights and use as many muscles groups as possible
I for a long time stuck to Deadlifts , squats and bench , and filled in with a few rows and complementery stuff , But i`m really enjoying the clean and press at the moment .
Strength can be hugely mental , It is incredibly affected by your diet , all the hard work in the gym or at work means naught if you ever go hungry .
both can be good , Ive always done physical work and gym , they can complimet or have negative effects .
Physically heavy work can begreat for strength training , but A lot of work youd imagine isnt necessarilly heavy but endurance , this can really hinder gaining power , you just dont have the recovery time .
Best work strentgh training is actually at the moment Ive been putting up steel fences helping a freind , digging holes and making/moving concrete , I`m feeling very strong .
I havent had the chance to be at the gym much of late , but My lifts are going up , so physical work does count .
Ive always had tough hands , but what builder/carpenter/caninetmaker doesnt , I take this for granted , I dont skin my knuckles on a bag , maybe its a combination ....
Gym training is different , i`m going to agree With Bill on this and suggest olympic lifts ... My base routine actually is more power lifting type stuff (though i cant compare with those folk) , I like movements that use free weights and use as many muscles groups as possible
I for a long time stuck to Deadlifts , squats and bench , and filled in with a few rows and complementery stuff , But i`m really enjoying the clean and press at the moment .
Strength can be hugely mental , It is incredibly affected by your diet , all the hard work in the gym or at work means naught if you ever go hungry .
Ive done it , usually it was on the weekends though , I find it harder to go do a karate type class when i`m tired than go liftThen I wondered how many construction workers would come home after a long day on the jobsite and hit the treadmill or weight bench.
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Harry Cook
- Posts: 51
- Joined: Thu Jan 06, 2005 10:25 pm
I think hard physical work is good mental preparation for hard training. My granfather was a riveter, he worked in the shipyards on the Tyne (when we built ships), and the nature of his job (bashing metal rivets with 2 14 lb hammers) day in day out meant that he had forearms like Popeye and a very strong grip. He also had foreams like leather from the scarring caused by the hot metal falling on him every day. He wasn't exceptional. Someone with that kind of experience (coal miners, foundry workers, deep sea trawlermen etc etc) who decide to take up training come to it with a very strong attitude of expecting and accepting pain. Boxing training for example is no big deal if you are used to spending hours in a coal seam working your guts out in high temperatures. It is even more acceptable if you can make a lot more money as a boxer than you could ever do as a miner.
Harry Cook
Harry Cook
Every now and then I train with a bunch of karate guys in a prominent East London boxing gym, some of whom work in construction while others moonlight as bouncers. To look at them, one wouldn't think that they amounted to much - not particularly muscular and a few look overweight. However, they are all immensely strong and very hard men. While I consider myself technically more proficient (and possibly fitter) than most of them, I also have no doubt that most of them could beat me into a senseless, bloody pulp before one could say "hajime". Around these guys, I really do feel like one of these "pretend" martial artists. And I've come from a Kyokushin background!
I, for one, am pretty sure there's a difference between "work" and "exercise".
Wayne Young
I, for one, am pretty sure there's a difference between "work" and "exercise".
Wayne Young
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Mark Weitz
- Posts: 397
- Joined: Fri Feb 27, 2004 4:27 pm
- Location: Toronto, Canada
One of my closest friends owns a small metal and plastics recyling company, and he basically has his hands literally in all the operations.
He works regularly, almost daily with heavy materialis, usually steel, copper, etc. often hand bailing the items himself.
He's about 5'8" and weighs 165lbs. His hand strength is bone crushing. We've wrestled for fun and when he decides to grab or use a hold it is very painful and damn near impossible to break his grip unless I use a pointy thingy or threaten to grab his testicles, etc.
He's worked with these materials his whole life and definitely has the strength from it. However, it's very selective strength.
Mark
He works regularly, almost daily with heavy materialis, usually steel, copper, etc. often hand bailing the items himself.
He's about 5'8" and weighs 165lbs. His hand strength is bone crushing. We've wrestled for fun and when he decides to grab or use a hold it is very painful and damn near impossible to break his grip unless I use a pointy thingy or threaten to grab his testicles, etc.
He's worked with these materials his whole life and definitely has the strength from it. However, it's very selective strength.
Mark
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Danny Smith
- Posts: 62
- Joined: Fri Dec 17, 2004 9:50 pm
- Location: Tishomingo, Oklahoma
For Mark,
My younger brother works at a steel and wire manufacturing type plant here in Ok. and has had various other jobs mainly dealing with heavy construction.
He is a beast of a man around 5' 10' and probably 240 lbs.
He looks over weight like you say and probably is but he is hard as a rock and is just loaded with sheer power. I don't think I have ever seen him grab anything he could not lift or move and I have always admired him for his strength. Our fun wrestling matches in the past always have ended with me pined like a little kid
.
We don't typically use or develope a lot of "pointy" weapons in Tae Kwon Do, but I have taken it upon myself to learn several anyway much to brother's supprise when he pins me
. That and the fact that he is insanely ticklish about the ribs and middle has saved my bacon more than once!
Gotta love pointy things.
The strength is selective though. There are some things he just simply can't do and doesn't seem to understand the simple physics of some things. For instance.
In Tae Kwon Do, we like to break things sometimes.
I like to do board breaks with the boards unsupported.
Usually holding the board(s) in one hand and punching or
striking with the other.
Now, if the boards are supported on the cinder blocks my brother can power through them fairly easily.
On the other hand unsupported he just knocks them out of his hand. Where I can just snap them fairly easy.
He says "but I'm 10 times stronger than you"
And I say,"yeah but I'm 5 times faster than you" and I use 2 knuckles as opposed to my whole fist.
But for the life of him he just doesn't get it.
Oh well, maybe someday
My younger brother works at a steel and wire manufacturing type plant here in Ok. and has had various other jobs mainly dealing with heavy construction.
He is a beast of a man around 5' 10' and probably 240 lbs.
He looks over weight like you say and probably is but he is hard as a rock and is just loaded with sheer power. I don't think I have ever seen him grab anything he could not lift or move and I have always admired him for his strength. Our fun wrestling matches in the past always have ended with me pined like a little kid
.We don't typically use or develope a lot of "pointy" weapons in Tae Kwon Do, but I have taken it upon myself to learn several anyway much to brother's supprise when he pins me
. That and the fact that he is insanely ticklish about the ribs and middle has saved my bacon more than once!Gotta love pointy things.
The strength is selective though. There are some things he just simply can't do and doesn't seem to understand the simple physics of some things. For instance.
In Tae Kwon Do, we like to break things sometimes.
I like to do board breaks with the boards unsupported.
Usually holding the board(s) in one hand and punching or
striking with the other.
Now, if the boards are supported on the cinder blocks my brother can power through them fairly easily.
On the other hand unsupported he just knocks them out of his hand. Where I can just snap them fairly easy.
He says "but I'm 10 times stronger than you"
And I say,"yeah but I'm 5 times faster than you" and I use 2 knuckles as opposed to my whole fist.
But for the life of him he just doesn't get it.
Oh well, maybe someday
Tomahawk
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Mark Weitz
- Posts: 397
- Joined: Fri Feb 27, 2004 4:27 pm
- Location: Toronto, Canada
There's a good lesson for us, Danny. It sounds like your younger brother shows his strength in how he is built. This is something that translates to the street in terms of looking at people and getting a quick sense of their strengths and possibe weaknesses. You wouldn't want to get grabbed by someone like your brother but your speed and power and technique can work around it. And blessed be the pointy thingies because when you get grabbed hard they have a wonderful way of giving you back some space and control.
The interesting thing about my friend is that he doesn't look strong at all. He's thin, of average build but has uncanny gripping strength. One time we were wrestling and he took me down and put me in a very tight headlock. He had buzzed his head pretty close to the scalp making hair grabs impossible - I tried that once and said that was a "dirty trick". So I grabbed his ear and gave a "gentle" pull and he let go pretty quick.
Having the awareness and presence of mind to do these things is the key. We can train our pointy techniques but it's relative grace under pressure that'll make it available under pressure.
Take care,
Mark
The interesting thing about my friend is that he doesn't look strong at all. He's thin, of average build but has uncanny gripping strength. One time we were wrestling and he took me down and put me in a very tight headlock. He had buzzed his head pretty close to the scalp making hair grabs impossible - I tried that once and said that was a "dirty trick". So I grabbed his ear and gave a "gentle" pull and he let go pretty quick.
Having the awareness and presence of mind to do these things is the key. We can train our pointy techniques but it's relative grace under pressure that'll make it available under pressure.
Take care,
Mark
This has puzzled me for awhile. One of my friends refers to it as "inbred farmboy strength". For some reason, people that move weights are good at weights and people that move bodies (or hay bales or cattle) are good at moving bodies.
I'm not that strong. On a good day I might be able to bench 220. But I've been pinned in a seoi gatame (he's laying across my upper chest at right angles and controlling a shoulder) by a 220 pound man who was hanging on with all his might and escaped using the exact same move as a bench press.
Bill, do you have any insight? Or is it ki?;)
Rory
I'm not that strong. On a good day I might be able to bench 220. But I've been pinned in a seoi gatame (he's laying across my upper chest at right angles and controlling a shoulder) by a 220 pound man who was hanging on with all his might and escaped using the exact same move as a bench press.
Bill, do you have any insight? Or is it ki?;)
Rory
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Bill Glasheen
- Posts: 17299
- Joined: Thu Mar 11, 1999 6:01 am
- Location: Richmond, VA --- Louisville, KY
Just got back from a week on the road. Thankfully San Diego and Phoenix are heaven, save for the unusual downpours in Phoenix. Strange how rain follows me even to arrid climates.
There are many, many principles here.
First...
There's a difference between strength and power. Most folks who work in the weight room - and know what they are doing - develop balanced strength. But it takes Olympic lifts and/or plyometrics to learn power after getting that strength base.
Folks who toss things about for a living learn power by the nature of what they are doing. Tossing bails of hay - done correctly - isn't a lot different from doing an Olympic lift like the clean and jerk. These movements teach your body a lot about the concept of "essential synergy" (getting muscles to work together). But if ALL you do is these same motions, you are going to be missing out on balancing the body. Anyone who does one activity and doesn't supplement the weak places in the weight room develops glaring weaknesses that can be exploited by the well-trained athlete. And these folks often develop funny bodies that are a reflection of the activity they do.
The best of all worlds is to mix it up. Everyone needs a balanced strength foundation. Add in the power stuff - by formal exercise or by field work - and you've got the complete package.
I hear what you say about the bench strength, etc., Rory. But remember that most martial power and "know how" comes from the lower 2/3 of your body. That holds true for grappling as well. The bench-and-curl crowd develop the peacock look, but there's a big difference between show and go. It takes a lot of dedication to get both. My philosophy is to keep on the bench, but... Don't get worked up about the numbers at the exclusion of all the other things you need to do to be strong, powerful, and having a corner on "technique."
One final note... The body has a funny way of optimizing its performance to what you are doing. So if you do a lot of training in the form of running in sand, you get very good at running in sand. You will not optimize the body for maxing out on the 100 meters. There's a funny physical training name for the phenomenon but... You get the idea.
- Bill
There are many, many principles here.
First...
There's a difference between strength and power. Most folks who work in the weight room - and know what they are doing - develop balanced strength. But it takes Olympic lifts and/or plyometrics to learn power after getting that strength base.
Folks who toss things about for a living learn power by the nature of what they are doing. Tossing bails of hay - done correctly - isn't a lot different from doing an Olympic lift like the clean and jerk. These movements teach your body a lot about the concept of "essential synergy" (getting muscles to work together). But if ALL you do is these same motions, you are going to be missing out on balancing the body. Anyone who does one activity and doesn't supplement the weak places in the weight room develops glaring weaknesses that can be exploited by the well-trained athlete. And these folks often develop funny bodies that are a reflection of the activity they do.
The best of all worlds is to mix it up. Everyone needs a balanced strength foundation. Add in the power stuff - by formal exercise or by field work - and you've got the complete package.
I hear what you say about the bench strength, etc., Rory. But remember that most martial power and "know how" comes from the lower 2/3 of your body. That holds true for grappling as well. The bench-and-curl crowd develop the peacock look, but there's a big difference between show and go. It takes a lot of dedication to get both. My philosophy is to keep on the bench, but... Don't get worked up about the numbers at the exclusion of all the other things you need to do to be strong, powerful, and having a corner on "technique."
One final note... The body has a funny way of optimizing its performance to what you are doing. So if you do a lot of training in the form of running in sand, you get very good at running in sand. You will not optimize the body for maxing out on the 100 meters. There's a funny physical training name for the phenomenon but... You get the idea.
- Bill
It does, and if done long enough can and does develop specific abnormallities to the task if repeated often enough if one doesn`t balance lifestyle (excersise is important) .The body has a funny way of optimizing its performance to what you are doing.
He's worked with these materials his whole life and definitely has the strength from it. However, it's very selective strength. Mark
I have manipulated countless tons (averaging 35 lbs each)of tires for almost 30 years and imbalances cause slight but significant postural changes that allow efficient work but at cost to weaknesses elsewhere. Developed conditions due to poor ergonomics are rocketing and recovery is longer and more costly than accidental injuries (sport or work). Years ago when a "hard worker" could no longer function he quietly fell to the wayside and another "good worker"
was gone.If you attack me (or my coworker)I can flip and stack you faster than you can blink if you go to my left
and if a tire (normally two) are in my hands it is unlikely you will escape the deadly trapping art of Ringer-ryu Excersise regardless how demanding one may feel their trade is must be incorperated to balance the body mentally and physically. Specific strenght in one area or task is IMHO a warning to the "operator" (the Brain)
[/quote]
Léo
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Mark Weitz
- Posts: 397
- Joined: Fri Feb 27, 2004 4:27 pm
- Location: Toronto, Canada
If you attack me (or my coworker)I can flip and stack you faster than you can blink if you go to my left.
Oh man, sign me up. Ringer-ryu. Love it. Extremely effective, I'm sure, against multiple opponents in terms of stacking them.
One thing this thread is reminding of re training is being aware of one's strengths/limitations and building those into your practice. I'm 5'7" and 160lbs soaking wet so I put a lot of thought, and some work now and again, into techniques that I feel will work up close and personal, knees, elbows, pointy thingies, striking with the palm, the inner or outer blades of the forearm against the side of the neck, etc.
Farm boy strength may not be balanced but it's sure a force to be reckoned with, which is why we need to put into practice techniques that aren't dependent on size and brute strength/power.
My old kali teacher, Nanoy, was a genius with this. At only 5' 4" (maybe 5", but I'm being generous), he is every bit the pit bull and if you should be unlucky enough to have him get his hands on you (yes, he too has farm boy strength in ALL of his technique), you will learn quickly how to flop around like a fish on the ground. He has a great understanding of pain compliance, grabs that are distractingly painful, and the striking and grappling knowledge to finish. Bottom line, a master of pointy thingies with many applications for the shoken as pressure point control, the cat's paw for grabbing flesh - something David Mott has great ability with
. take care,
Mark
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Bill Glasheen
- Posts: 17299
- Joined: Thu Mar 11, 1999 6:01 am
- Location: Richmond, VA --- Louisville, KY
I had another thought on this subject.
Thinking specifically about farm work, it has one huge difference from any form of athletic training I've experienced. In training, there is an artificial end state- so many reps or go until your tired or go until the coach decides you've had enough.
In farm work, it's not like that. You have to milk the cow until the cow is out of milk. It doesn't matter how many times your hands go to total muscle failure, you shake 'em out and keep squeezing or the cow develops mastitis.
If a storm is coming in, you have to load ALL the baled hay and get it under cover, no matter how many tons or how little time you have.
Someone doing serious labor regularly goes beyond what most people think are the limits, and consequently their ideas of "pain" and "too much" and "impossible" aren't the same, and it affects everything else that they do.
Rory
Thinking specifically about farm work, it has one huge difference from any form of athletic training I've experienced. In training, there is an artificial end state- so many reps or go until your tired or go until the coach decides you've had enough.
In farm work, it's not like that. You have to milk the cow until the cow is out of milk. It doesn't matter how many times your hands go to total muscle failure, you shake 'em out and keep squeezing or the cow develops mastitis.
If a storm is coming in, you have to load ALL the baled hay and get it under cover, no matter how many tons or how little time you have.
Someone doing serious labor regularly goes beyond what most people think are the limits, and consequently their ideas of "pain" and "too much" and "impossible" aren't the same, and it affects everything else that they do.
Rory
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Stryke
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Bill Glasheen
- Posts: 17299
- Joined: Thu Mar 11, 1999 6:01 am
- Location: Richmond, VA --- Louisville, KY
You da man, Rory!
This is where man learns a lesson that I keep trying to teach my son.
....... Don't work hard; work smart!!!
Where there is a will and a need, there is a way.
The farmer somehow finds a way to throw the bails of hay, milk the cows, get the animals in the barn, and plow the field. Some of it is strength. Some of it is power. Some of it is intelligence. Some of it is technique.
The person working in the weight room is working on only one or two things, and the end goal is very different. In the weight room, we often seek consciously to challenge one or two aspects of what makes us the complete and capable human. We avoid "cheating" because it destroys the purpose of why we are there in the first place.
In the field though, "cheating" is smart.
Just look at the difference between what the bodybuilder and the Olympic lifter do and look like.
The bodybuider is all about trashing the body (sometimes in the presence of pharmaceutical aids) to achieve an end that is primarily asthetic. The obsession with the visual is so much so that women will get breast augmentation, nose jobs, fat injection in the lips, and sprayed-on tans to achieve the end that rewards them on the posing stage. Form and function diverge to the point that the end result is a farce of nature. My wife left competition when the women backstage had deep voices, stubble on the chins, and mammary glands that stood up at unnatural angles in spite of the fact that their bodies had been stripped of fat. The image of Venus? I don't think so. But the judges eat it up, and "the winners" laugh all the way to the bank.
The Olympic lifter is all about getting a weight from low to high. The way you do it becomes somewhat important, so there is that one artificial element brought in. But the task otherwise remains simple and functional. Now take a look at the winners. If we could rid the activity of 'roids and GH, what you end up with are big people, and not much more. They don't look "pretty" like "Arnold." But they can move some bloody weight!
The modern farmer is far on the functional end of the spectrum. Some work is just plain work, and it has to be done. But the modern farmer is not beyond getting on the internet to check the weather, using the best tractor, hooking the cows up to modern milking machines, etc., etc.
Form vs. function... That's the yardstick that helps us differentiate one activity from the next. And the modern warrior can be on a very different part of that spectrum than the modern "traditionalist", or the guy that wants to live a good life. And there's nothing wrong with that.
- Bill
This is where man learns a lesson that I keep trying to teach my son.
....... Don't work hard; work smart!!!
Where there is a will and a need, there is a way.
The farmer somehow finds a way to throw the bails of hay, milk the cows, get the animals in the barn, and plow the field. Some of it is strength. Some of it is power. Some of it is intelligence. Some of it is technique.
The person working in the weight room is working on only one or two things, and the end goal is very different. In the weight room, we often seek consciously to challenge one or two aspects of what makes us the complete and capable human. We avoid "cheating" because it destroys the purpose of why we are there in the first place.
In the field though, "cheating" is smart.
Just look at the difference between what the bodybuilder and the Olympic lifter do and look like.
The bodybuider is all about trashing the body (sometimes in the presence of pharmaceutical aids) to achieve an end that is primarily asthetic. The obsession with the visual is so much so that women will get breast augmentation, nose jobs, fat injection in the lips, and sprayed-on tans to achieve the end that rewards them on the posing stage. Form and function diverge to the point that the end result is a farce of nature. My wife left competition when the women backstage had deep voices, stubble on the chins, and mammary glands that stood up at unnatural angles in spite of the fact that their bodies had been stripped of fat. The image of Venus? I don't think so. But the judges eat it up, and "the winners" laugh all the way to the bank.
The Olympic lifter is all about getting a weight from low to high. The way you do it becomes somewhat important, so there is that one artificial element brought in. But the task otherwise remains simple and functional. Now take a look at the winners. If we could rid the activity of 'roids and GH, what you end up with are big people, and not much more. They don't look "pretty" like "Arnold." But they can move some bloody weight!
The modern farmer is far on the functional end of the spectrum. Some work is just plain work, and it has to be done. But the modern farmer is not beyond getting on the internet to check the weather, using the best tractor, hooking the cows up to modern milking machines, etc., etc.
Form vs. function... That's the yardstick that helps us differentiate one activity from the next. And the modern warrior can be on a very different part of that spectrum than the modern "traditionalist", or the guy that wants to live a good life. And there's nothing wrong with that.
- Bill
