I have often read and heard it said that the study of the martial arts makes one a better person.
What constitutes a better person?
Is it reasonable to expect one to exhibit some humility as one continues along the path? Is a martial practioner still a martial artist if they have inflated visions of their own worth? Should we expect in time students begin to control their ego as they progresses in training?
Thoughts?
Laird
Humility
Moderator: Available
I'm interested in this question you pose Laird, and hope to hear thoughts. Someone who wishes to improve him/herself will likely find martial arts a good opportunity to work on it. At the same time, there are hoodlums involved in evil deeds looking to learn how to do it better. How do you define humility and personal betterment and how do you see it enriched by your studies?
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Stryke
Tough question Laird , many different opinions on this id presume .
My personal take is that humility comes from knowing ones limits , If in the martial arts for a long time and constantly testing yourself you should come up short , you should find things and situations you cant deal with martially .
you have to at some point let go of ego to constantly test against those better than you , otherwise you will self destruct or self delude ...
to test and challenge what you know is the path to improve , to test and challenge is to fail so you can improve .
no failure means no improvement , to handle failure is humbling IMHO
those that dont test themselves however miss this part of the path , another reason i beleive for any spiritual or character development to come from MA it first must be Martial .
people who lack these kind of lessons in the MA to me are often the folks who have failed to understand the martial of the martial arts .
they have failed to fail , failed to find there limits before they can go on and improve on them .
It`s not a collection of techniques , or belts , or styles , but a confrontation of oneself that`s important .
to change oneself is the martial path ...
to confront oneself is the martial path ...
the real battle is always within .
If a student fails to improve in this sense then the teacher IMHO is failing to test there limits .
My personal take is that humility comes from knowing ones limits , If in the martial arts for a long time and constantly testing yourself you should come up short , you should find things and situations you cant deal with martially .
you have to at some point let go of ego to constantly test against those better than you , otherwise you will self destruct or self delude ...
to test and challenge what you know is the path to improve , to test and challenge is to fail so you can improve .
no failure means no improvement , to handle failure is humbling IMHO
those that dont test themselves however miss this part of the path , another reason i beleive for any spiritual or character development to come from MA it first must be Martial .
people who lack these kind of lessons in the MA to me are often the folks who have failed to understand the martial of the martial arts .
they have failed to fail , failed to find there limits before they can go on and improve on them .
It`s not a collection of techniques , or belts , or styles , but a confrontation of oneself that`s important .
to change oneself is the martial path ...
to confront oneself is the martial path ...
the real battle is always within .
If a student fails to improve in this sense then the teacher IMHO is failing to test there limits .
Great topic......
I think this is a very interesting topic and I really like what Marcus has to say in his post about testing yourself.I always liked something Teddy Roosevelt said about the battle of life and I have a copy of this Battle of life on my wall under my crucifix.In these words from Roosevelt he says it is not the critic that counts , not the man who points out how the strong man stumbled, or where the doer of a deed could have done better.The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood, who strives valiantly, who errs and comes short again and again because there is no effort without error and shortcoming, who does actually strive to do the deeds, who knows the great enthusiasms, the great devotion, spends himself in a worthy cause, who at the best knows in the end the triumph of high achievement, and who at the worst, if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who have tasted neither victory nor defeat...
Theodore Roosevelt - The Battle of Life- my favorite writing of all time..
I think it's all about the effort..
Jeff
Theodore Roosevelt - The Battle of Life- my favorite writing of all time..
I think it's all about the effort..
Jeff
Jeff
Thanks Marcus...
Yeah that is my favorite piece of writing ever and in my belief The Battle of Life by Theodore Roosevelt really does embody to me what it's all about in life.to me it says look inside yourself and your heart and seek to get the best from yourself while not hurting or being critical of others cause we all are born into this world alone and will leave it alone and our journey is unique and we must get the best from ourselves and the things we seek to do in life and while we may come short sometimes of our goals we keep reaching and learn while we go along.And even in the event we never reach the summit of the mountain at least we displayed the courage and enthusiasm to start and continue the climb.Yeah those words mean alot to me.
Jeff
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Stryke
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JimHawkins
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- Location: NYC
In Wing Chun the student must give up his/her ego before learning can begin. In chi sao many students will begin resisting their partner's attacks at all costs. They aren't afraid to be hurt in the least but they are deathly afraid to be hit, because it means, to them, that they have lost. Their ego suffers the damage.
The truth in Chi Sao is that you must go with and transition with the attack and this means compliance not resistance so to resist actually prevents learning, the harder they try to fight the more they continue to 'loose'. Many students will complain that they keep getting hit and don't understand why. So they get even more determined not to be hit and as a result they get hit more and cease to grow.
Few students, though some, will give themselves up, their ego and happily 'let' their seniors 'beat them up' or 'throw them around,' they learn to go with the energy given and using very little of their own energy they eventually learn to gain control. But they gained control by first giving up their desire for control (very Buddist), by in fact giving up their ego, and freeing their minds and bodies of what was, something new can now grow.
Parallels can be seen in the idea of giving up ones 'hope for life' during combat, freeing oneself from distraction and tenseness. This was the theme in Game of Death, where the highest level was 'Giving up all hope of living..' Here ego plays a role in personal combat as well as in personal growth.
The truth in Chi Sao is that you must go with and transition with the attack and this means compliance not resistance so to resist actually prevents learning, the harder they try to fight the more they continue to 'loose'. Many students will complain that they keep getting hit and don't understand why. So they get even more determined not to be hit and as a result they get hit more and cease to grow.
Few students, though some, will give themselves up, their ego and happily 'let' their seniors 'beat them up' or 'throw them around,' they learn to go with the energy given and using very little of their own energy they eventually learn to gain control. But they gained control by first giving up their desire for control (very Buddist), by in fact giving up their ego, and freeing their minds and bodies of what was, something new can now grow.
Parallels can be seen in the idea of giving up ones 'hope for life' during combat, freeing oneself from distraction and tenseness. This was the theme in Game of Death, where the highest level was 'Giving up all hope of living..' Here ego plays a role in personal combat as well as in personal growth.
Shaolin
M Y V T K F
"Receive what comes, stay with what goes, upon loss of contact attack the line" – The Kuen Kuit
M Y V T K F
"Receive what comes, stay with what goes, upon loss of contact attack the line" – The Kuen Kuit
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Bill Glasheen
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- Joined: Thu Mar 11, 1999 6:01 am
- Location: Richmond, VA --- Louisville, KY
Marcus's little speech was really inspiring.
What intrigues me is the idea that humility is one of many character traits entwined to make the person what they are. Marcus rightly discusses the need to face one's limitations and accept failure as a part of the learning process. On the other hand, there's also a need to develop confidence, determination, and aggressiveness to achieve any kind of ability and effectiveness in the martial arena. Many of these traits work in dynamic tension with humility to create the effective individual.
Riding on the tail of a Patrick McCarthy seminar, I got to thinking about what made him the special individual that he is. It is many things. The first thing you notice is his ability to work with people. Without that, he never would have absorbed as much martial information from so many different sources. Many people are lucky to find one good teacher from which they are able to fill their own cups. For a bottomless, supersized mug like Patrick, one source can never be enough. And the only way Patrick ever could satisfy that thirst is to enter the lives of many different people from many different cultures. Ponder all the many academic and social skills it took for him to have gone and learned from all the many places that he did.
And then... The really good people solidify and crystallize their knowledge via a secondary thirst for teaching. That can be a selfless endeavor that scratches an internal selfish itch.
The more you want to learn, the farther you want to go, the more challenges that are presented to your internal and external social skills and issues.
- Bill
What intrigues me is the idea that humility is one of many character traits entwined to make the person what they are. Marcus rightly discusses the need to face one's limitations and accept failure as a part of the learning process. On the other hand, there's also a need to develop confidence, determination, and aggressiveness to achieve any kind of ability and effectiveness in the martial arena. Many of these traits work in dynamic tension with humility to create the effective individual.
Riding on the tail of a Patrick McCarthy seminar, I got to thinking about what made him the special individual that he is. It is many things. The first thing you notice is his ability to work with people. Without that, he never would have absorbed as much martial information from so many different sources. Many people are lucky to find one good teacher from which they are able to fill their own cups. For a bottomless, supersized mug like Patrick, one source can never be enough. And the only way Patrick ever could satisfy that thirst is to enter the lives of many different people from many different cultures. Ponder all the many academic and social skills it took for him to have gone and learned from all the many places that he did.
And then... The really good people solidify and crystallize their knowledge via a secondary thirst for teaching. That can be a selfless endeavor that scratches an internal selfish itch.
The more you want to learn, the farther you want to go, the more challenges that are presented to your internal and external social skills and issues.
- Bill
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Randy Pelletier
Excellent Topic Laird
This is such a thought provoking topic. We have to look inside ourselves and truly assess what we are capable of and what we still have to learn. If you look hard enough, you are capable of nothing next to the guy that is better than you and that then tells you that you have much to learn.
I feel that I work with a group of people that do not have ego problems and all ranks from white to black contribute ideas and suggestions towards everyone elses learnings.
Humility is strong in our school as we all get thrown around, tossed agasint walls and keep coming back for more because we learn from it.
There are a few people with various MA backgrounds yet no one boasts of their abilities and training as we have all been humbled at one point or another.
Laird and Marcus, you are both fine examples of what I am talking about as you both are extremely talented yet come with an open mind towards sharing your knowledge freely and not throwing ego around the dojo.
This attitude has been fostered by Rick and it makes for a great culture with which to learn and become a better martial artist and a better person.
I have also met and known people that claim they have done everything, are experts at whatever you talk about and blah blah blah. This is primarily based on hiding behind your rank. Well good for you but your mind is now closed to further learnings as your ego has surpassed your drive to improve.
If you have to continually tell someone how good you are, then you are simply trying to overcome your own insecurities about your abilities. Everyone can see right through that.
To those I say, "Grease your ears up good so you can get through doorways easier".
I feel that I work with a group of people that do not have ego problems and all ranks from white to black contribute ideas and suggestions towards everyone elses learnings.
Humility is strong in our school as we all get thrown around, tossed agasint walls and keep coming back for more because we learn from it.
There are a few people with various MA backgrounds yet no one boasts of their abilities and training as we have all been humbled at one point or another.
Laird and Marcus, you are both fine examples of what I am talking about as you both are extremely talented yet come with an open mind towards sharing your knowledge freely and not throwing ego around the dojo.
This attitude has been fostered by Rick and it makes for a great culture with which to learn and become a better martial artist and a better person.
I have also met and known people that claim they have done everything, are experts at whatever you talk about and blah blah blah. This is primarily based on hiding behind your rank. Well good for you but your mind is now closed to further learnings as your ego has surpassed your drive to improve.
If you have to continually tell someone how good you are, then you are simply trying to overcome your own insecurities about your abilities. Everyone can see right through that.
To those I say, "Grease your ears up good so you can get through doorways easier".
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Norm Abrahamson
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Dana Sheets
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- Joined: Mon Feb 25, 2002 6:01 am
Humility falls on a continiuum as does any element of character. There are those with too much humility - they do not seek nor feel worthy of appropirate acknowledgement for their efforts. At the opposite spectrum are the people we love to hate - those who border on megalomania - who almost seem incapable of understanding that their efforts are not always superb, not always above the norm, not always special or unique.
Somewhere in the middle - at various points of the middle - lie of the rest of us. And we rarely sit in the same spot two days in a row.
Somewhere in the middle - at various points of the middle - lie of the rest of us. And we rarely sit in the same spot two days in a row.
Did you show compassion today?
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Randy Pelletier
I like that statement Dana. It is very true and applies to all of us. At times in our lives, we all have to show humility and at others, we all show ego.Somewhere in the middle - at various points of the middle - lie of the rest of us. And we rarely sit in the same spot two days in a row.
Great statement.
