Throws versus locks.

[Bill Glasheen]

Ukemi doesn't work unless the thrower allows the throwee to fall properly. That is pretty much what judo and aikido are all about.

I disagree wholeheartedly.

Yes, classroom judo and aikido use a degree of "cooperation" in training and even in competition. The same goes for karate, boxing, and even to some extent UFC matches. There is usually some degree of concern for the safety of your partner. In aikido, the advanced practitioners can be so good that they take great pride in being in complete control without hurting their opponent.

BUT....

The advantages of ukemi exist even without a human being involved. If Christopher Reeves had practiced ukemi, he would be alive today, and would have done several sequels to his Superman movies. I personally witnessed one of my own karate students (while riding a horse) roll out of the very nasty fall that turned Reeves into a quad. I walked away from a high-speed motorcycle accident with a car that destroyed a 750cc bike - because of my ukemi. I had a tough time getting out of bed the next morning, but I did indeed get out of bed and on my feet.

On the flip side, I've had a student slip and fall in a sparring match (without touching partner) and shatter his wrist. Stupid fall.... A whitebelt mistake.

Because my ukemi is advanced enough that I can do some of it on wooden floors (ask my students), I now have little fear of falling. That is very, very empowering. While some folks need mats to practice shooting and other very basic grapping moves, I can do some of the same on a wooden floor without fear.

One of my own student's students is highly ranked in Japanese jiujitsu, and has competed in BJJ. His ukemi is so advanced that some of his falls are classified as attacks. And if you don't believe me, come to camp sometime and meet Sal. Nice guy, BTW, but very, very scary good.

The Marines that Rich trains develop their ukemi well enough that they do all their grappling and throwing outdoors on good ole mother earth. The battlefield isn't a foo foo training ground; they take this falling business very seriously.

Check this out. Don't diss something so important until - like Norm says - you do the time.

- Bill

[Stryke]

If Christopher Reeves had practiced ukemi, he would be alive today, and would have done several sequels to his Superman movies.

what would his chi have saved him , it may or may not of helped , learning to fall is important but not a garaunteed thing .

It is very possible to be thrown in a way that no amount of fall training will help . having said that there are a lot of times were knowing how to fall will save your ass , so it`s deffinately a bonus , exspecially if you want to practice throws etc ....

most people who have some ability falling actually find it easier to fall for someone who throws them properly , nothings harder than falling when someone tries to gently place you IMHO

[Bill Glasheen]

learning to fall is important but not a garaunteed thing

That goes without saying. There are no guarantees in life. If you're looking for one in martial arts (or school, or an investment, or a marriage, or your doctor, or..., or...) well then you'd best pack your expectations up and be done with it all.

Life in general is uncertain; that's the fun of it all. But I'm playing the odds in my favor whenever given the chance.

- Bill

[GSantaniello]

To all,

Canadawe must also train to not get stuck in the idea of seeing locks/throws as discreet events. These things flow out of opportunities and the opportunity for a lock can be fleeting.


Good observation. As many who practice these movements and/or finish ups often may believe whole heartedly that they will in fact be seized opportunities for the taking. Not true.


However, the more the locks and throws are incorporated in Uechi practice, the more opportunities and interpretations are revealed in kata and bunkai.


This may in fact be very true. However, i believe that this concept should be saved and practiced only by the more advanced. As many have difficulty enough in practicing the basic fundementals of uechi-ryu or any other art.

For instance, if you and an opponent are grabbing each other, who's to say a muwate isn't a throw or load for a throw? In Sensei Mattson's "Uechi Ryu Karate Do" several take downs, locks and throws are demonstrated in the self defense series at pages 211-240. Locks and throws have always been a part of the system, although they have not always been practiced regularly.

Thank you for that reference. However, in having reviewed those techniques, i do find them to be very few in content with some being shoulder "judo" throws incorperated into self defense and other being basic leg sweep take down in various application.

As many of us know, locks, sweeps, reaps, throws and joint manipulations are much more involved and and do come from jujitsu and aikido and judo arts. I would not be to quick to credit uechi-ryu with such. Although, they may and do often "tie in" with finish up techniques and good self defense application.

Also, i would agree with the concept as previously suggested that many throws involving roll out and break falls are do to the co-operation of both uki and attacker.

Having students with aikido background and some myself, we did discuss this today at class. A good crank of a wrist on one's opponent could very easily do damage. Also, the ability of one to respond with a fall would have to be as previously suggested, pre-convieved by the uki and allowed by the attacker.

Although in many aikido moves, there is a flowing of circular movement that is using ones energy against them by continuing their attack into re-direction. It's taught by intention to use minimum force and do minimal damage to one's attacker. At least it was taught to me that way by 5th dan Oliver Dillon who was and advovate of the founder Morihei Ueshiba.

However, in some study with 6th Dan Jim Jones, who was featured at one time in black belt magazine, being a jujitsu master rank, locks and joint manipulations was intended to break or do serious injury to one's opponent. Two different concepts often with very simular techniques.


As i had read some interesting articles last night in an old Black Belt Magazine, it basically stated that all techniques will work when being practiced slowly. As in being taught or shown.

At a faster speed, these techniques will work less often.

At full speed and realistic application, these techniques will work very little amount of the time.

The basis of the article was that techniques should remain basic and simple.

Respectfully,

[MikeK]

Having students with aikido background and some myself, we did discuss this today at class. A good crank of a wrist on one's opponent could very easily do damage. Also, the ability of one to respond with a fall would have to be as previously suggested, pre-convieved by the uki and allowed by the attacker.
However, in some study with 6th Dan Jim Jones, who was featured at one time in black belt magazine, being a jujitsu master rank, locks and joint manipulations was intended to break or do serious injury to one's opponent. Two different concepts often with very simular techniques.

Thanks Gary, that was what I was trying to originally say. Now it's off for some Motrin to help ease a few back falls that I screwed up.

[Norm Abrahamson]

Gary,

At the end of the day, we may be saying much the same thing.

Referring to the relationship between Uechi Ryu and certain throwing and locking techniques, you wrote: “Although, they may and do often "tie in" with finish up techniques and good self defense application.” To paraphrase Bill Clinton, it depends on what the meaning of “tie in” is. The more I practice, the less convinced I am that there is a bright line between arts. Concepts of balance, distance, taking space, distraction, control and finish, cross lines between and among most if not all martial arts. Each school or art has its own vocabulary and signature, but there is the common goal of winning or surviving a violent conflict.

Regarding tie-ins or interpretations leading to throws or joint locks you wrote: “This may in fact be very true. However, I believe that this concept should be saved and practiced only by the more advanced. As many have difficulty enough in practicing the basic fundamentals of Uechi-Ryu or any other art.” That is a good point, and it is up to each instructor to introduce various interpretations or applications as he or she sees fit. But let’s not assume something isn’t there before we take the time to look for it. An open mind is the most important training tool.

Sincerely,

Norm Abrahamson

[Bill Glasheen]

Not to say we are right, Norm, but you and I are like- minded.

One thing bugs me, Gary.

However, I believe that this concept should be saved and practiced only by the more advanced. As many have difficulty enough in practicing the basic fundamentals of Uechi-Ryu or any other art.

That's all well and good, Gary, but... I really, really resent someone else defining MY Uechi Ryu. What you call "advanced," I call basic fundamentals.

And I am not alone with such opinions.

there is the common goal of winning or surviving a violent conflict

Indeed! If this isn't the goal we all aspire to, then lets call it dancing and be done with it.

Go check out Joey Pomfret's school some time. I hear he can handle himself pretty well.. Check out how he has arranged his curriculum.

And "his Uechi" is no more a departure from what Kanbun taught than "Kanei's Uechi" was from his dad's art.

A little variation is a very healthy thing in a martial style. What remains "core" and "fundamental" should and will survive a little bit of creatiity from dojo to dojo.

- Bill

[MikeK]

I think that's what keeps an art fresh and alive Bill.

[GSantaniello]

Norm,

Thank you for your response.

Bill,

I am not surprized by your repsonse. As i expected to hear from you sooner.

At any rate, be it as it may, as many may share your opinion, as you state, so do many share mine.

There are basic fundementals in every style and system. Where as there is nothing wrong with expanding upon such and cross- training as many are doing today.

Knowing of Joey P. from previous years , as you refer to his expertize, it is my understanding that he has converted much to "self defense" and "ground work" and has not kept traditional uechi-ryu as part of his format. Of course, that is his choice with no disrespect intended.

As i am sure that you will attack my use of the word "traditional" my meaning is that of how it was taught many years ago and still today in Okinawa, brought back and passed on by Sensei Mattson and continued via teachings of many now senior master ranks and instructors of uechi-ryu (well respected) who many do not expand into other aspects as yourself and many others.


We all have our opinions. If you choose to somehow be offended by my mine, as you indicate, then i am sorry you choose to see it as such.



Respectfully.

[Bill Glasheen]

As i am sure that you will attack my use of the word "traditional" my meaning is that of how it was taught many years ago and still today in Okinawa, brought back and passed on by Sensei Mattson and continued via teachings of many now senior master ranks and instructors of uechi-ryu (well respected) who many do not expand into other aspects as yourself and many others.

That's a good one, Gary!

George is my instructor, by the way.

Also... I believe I fall into the category of "senior master ranks and instructors of uechi-ryu." George can correct me if I am wrong here.

I am a product of my upbringing, sir. Why do you think I like George so much and support him? Why do you think George throws things my way, like asking me to learn/teach the Fuzhou Suparinpei, or learn/teach a crane form taught by a Chinese in the 1980s? Do you know how/why I was awarded the title of Renshi? Kyoshi? (Hint: it was original choreography and original research, accepted and approved by George.)

I'm not trying to pull rank or anything here. I'm merely pointing out the fallacy in your assumptions and definitions.

This reminds me of a lot of the same arguments used against those who wanted to change things at the University of Virginia. It is a school founded by Thomas Jefferson in the latter 1700s. Many who did not like a change would invoke "tradition" and say something like "TJ would roll over in his grave if he knew that..." What people failed to mention is that TJ was a revolutionary. Oops!

So was Kanbun.

So was Kanei.

So is George.

So is Van.

The list goes on. As they say, seek not what those in the past did. Rather, seek what they sought.



"Every generation needs a new revolution."

We each play our roles in this greater community. One of mine is to push the envelope of understanding of the material passed down to us. I'm not making anything up, Gary; I'm merely trying to get people to understand what they already are doing. Part of that job involves opening closed minds.

- Bill

[f.Channell]

Bill,
I can assure you there is "zero" cooperation in Judo competition.
If there is I haven't seen it.
As far as Ukemi goes, it is good to keep from getting injured while training.
But I doubt it really carries over into life.
My instructors dad has been training in Judo for over 50 years.
Still teaches on the floor 5 nights a week, and fell and broke his hip last year. He told his daughter he forgot to breakfall.
If any one could have fallen correctly it would have been him.
F.

[Bill Glasheen]

Fred

As Stryke says, no guarantees in life. Even the best can have their number come up.

"Cooperation" is a relative thing, Fred. The term is used often by those in the reality-based self defense world. I did not make it up. Basically what it's about is the rules of competition vs. the rules (if any) on the street. Again on a RELATIVE basis, the amount of cooperation is quite different. Judo is a sport with clearly-defined rules of engagement. Even the process of facing off, beginning, and ending involves cooperation.

This is very, very important to understand. It is part of the "delusional thinking" thing that RBSD folks talk about. As long as you recognize it, then you're a long way towards dealing with it.

Certainly judo competition is better than no competition at all. Again, it's all relative. A "kata queen" is going to be a lot less prepared for the street than someone who has tested his/her mettle in some type of competition.

I don't make this stuff up, nor did I discover or invent it. Wish I had...

- Bill

[GSantaniello]

Bill,

I am well of aware of your rank and status.

As i have no problem with anyone set out to accomplsh teaching a 'well rounded" self defense criteria. Also, i do not pretend to know what "Uechi-ryu" may be to you in perspective.

However, these arts of many names, are refered to as such for a very ligitimate reason. Be it Judo, Aikido, Grappling, Wrestling, boxing, Karate or whatever, they were divised and taught as arts of their own.

Now some have chosen to incorperate them. That is fine also. However, many learn some of these arts and then find a way to work them into whatever else they are primarily studying. This is cross-training.

To state or imply that it is all in uechiryu karate is not acurate or true. What is true is that other techniques are easier to adapt into our system when they are known as they then appear to flow in more naturally.

I have studied with George Mattson at the "Hut" who you mention. There we simply work with some concepts and variations and welcome in some other shared material. However, for many who have studied with George for years and those that are of various black belt ranks up to 6th dan. there is no throws, takedowns, locks, chokes, submissions, etc, being taught as uechi-ryu criteria.

Having also studied with Bob Bethoney for over 20 years and Clarence Wilder, very few takedowns were used and primarily in sparring.

Van's classes known as T.C. classes were focused upon "power principle". Although possibly he may interject his teachings of past.

Art Rebessa who frequently visited and taught some at Bethony's dojo in Brockton, also stayed within the basic elements of uechi karate.

My point is this, all of these who i have been exposed to over years of my own training have never incorperated material from other arts as mentioned ubove.

I have learned it elsewhere.

If this material is all within uechi-ryu and has always been there, why then has it never been taught by others ?

Possibly you and some others have unlocked the hidden secrets that others before have not seen ?

Or could it be that these other arts are to be credited for what they bring to the table and people like yourself be recognized for one's ability to incorperate them into what we have known for years as "Traditional Uechi-ryu Karate-do" ?

To my knowledge, Judo does not incorperate punches or kicks. It is strickly an art of throws, reaps and sweeps.

Could one adapt these other elements before throwing or sweeping an opponent to the ground ? Certainly, and it would make for good self defense.

There is a chain of dojo's in the South Shore of Boston Ma. Called "Eclectic Karate" he teaches a mixture of things from various arts and is well known for it. (Paul Curtain).

That is what many are doing today. Like a "New Age" type of self defense. That is fine. Only let us simply state it and admit it if that is in fact what is being done.

That's my point !

Respectfully,

[Bill Glasheen]

Gary

First... I am happy to have you aboard with this discussion. By hashing this out - and getting all the bugs coming out of the woodwork as well - we all learn.

Second... I'm going to play devil's advocate to your post. It is a device used in the art of debate to help seek truth. Take it for what it is.

I have studied with George Mattson at the "Hut" who you mention. There we simply work with some concepts and variations and welcome in some other shared material.

George was one of the first to teach karate in America. He came over as a shodan and helped start a revolution. He published the first books on the style. He wrote the book on running a professional dojo.

It hadn't been done before.

However, for many who have studied with George for years and those that are of various black belt ranks up to 6th dan. there is no throws, takedowns, locks, chokes, submissions, etc, being taught as uechi-ryu criteria.

OK. What's your point?

Oh and do people stop learning after 6th dan? If so, then I guess all those years I spent inbetween grades was a waste of time.

Damn...

Having also studied with Bob Bethoney for over 20 years and Clarence Wilder,

Bob Bethoney and Clarence Wilder were two of the early point sparring champions in the United States. They were trendsetters.

very few takedowns were used and primarily in sparring.

So what you're saying is that takedowns were used.

Oh and by the way, Uechi kata are not about point sparring. They are about life-and-death struggles. They are about responses to habitual acts of violence.

Point sparring in karate tournaments is a game with rules. One of those rules is you can't throw your opponent. They especially frown on throws that send someone head over heels - like what you can do when you grab someone's leg with a shoken sukuiage uke. That is a very, very obvious application of a technique in sanseiryu, and (partially) done in Dan Kumite.

Van's classes known as T.C. classes were focused upon "power principle". Although possibly he may interject his teachings of past.

Van is a revolutionary in the Uechi world. He is one of the first to point out the difference between sport and street in self defense. He is a pioneer in pointing out the "low road" movements in Uechi kata. Most of the source of that information, by the way, comes from recent research by Ledoux.

The choreographers who knew about deadly force and the body's response to it knew all about that - on a practical level. It took Ledoux and Siddle and - later on - Van to unlock the secrets of gross motor movements in Uechi Ryu.

Revolutionary. But it was there all along, Gary.

Art Rebessa who frequently visited and taught some at Bethony's dojo in Brockton,

Art wrote one of the first books on kumite. He coached Uechi's earliest sparring champion.

Revolutionary!

also stayed within the basic elements of uechi karate.

He stayed within the boundaries of his expertise and the knowledge he had to work with at the moment.

So... What's your point?

My point is this, all of these who i have been exposed to over years of my own training have never incorperated material from other arts as mentioned ubove.

There was no need to. It was there in Uechi all along. They just needed to do more than operate in auto pilot to tap this information. They needed to do more than what sensei said to bring this information to the next level.

Understand, Gary, that Uechi Kanei once asked Jimmy Malone and Art Rabesa to teach sparring to Uechika in Okinawa. Did you know that, Gary? If not, get Maloney Sensei to tell you the story of their trip some time.

Uechi Kanei is no dummy.

Oh and by the way, Uechi Ryu translates as Uechi's style. That was his prerogative, don't you think?

To my knowledge, Judo does not incorperate punches or kicks.

There's no need to, Gary. They already exist. Furthermore, Judo has kata. Did you know that? Here's a little blurb from judoinfo.com.

Seiryoku Zenyo Kokumin Taiku in Judo

So what was your point, Gary?

I leave you with the dialogue from a movie about two real characters in life (Arthur Mendelson, and Hunter "Patch" Adams). Arthur Mendelson was one of the greatest minds of his time. Patch Adams revolutionized the doctor-patient relationship.

- Bill

Arthur Mendelson: How many fingers do you see?
Hunter Patch Adams: Four.
Arthur Mendelson: No no! Look beyond the fingers! Now tell me how many you see.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Arthur Mendelson: You're focusing on the problem. If you focus on the problem, you can't see the solution. Never focus on the problem!

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Arthur Mendelson: See what no one else sees. See what everyone chooses not to see... out of fear, conformity or laziness. See the whole world anew each day!

[GSantaniello]

Bill,

First, thank you for posting the web site that does contain some interesting reading material.

Unfortunately, i was only able to briefly scan some of it. However, I will research more of it later.

Secondly, think not that there was any implication by me that i believe learning stops at 6th dan. As i am at that level myself and frankly, i know better.

As over the years, i have sen many drop out of training and have heard opiniate that there was nothing more to learn after low dan ranks were issued to them. They obviously did not see the big picture. As for many, a mere Shodan rank was an end to ones means.

Also, at Bob Bethony's, we also fought for periods of time that was "not" point fighting oriented. I do know the difference of point fighting, (sport), heavy contact and real self defense.

All these things that you mention of these others individuals as to their contributions in uechi-ryu are without question.

Think not that because myself or others may not fully agree with some things, that it indicates a total lack of understanding. As this is not so.

Have to go to class !

Respectfully,