The Kata in Judo would appear to be more like bunkai than the kata of Uechi. Some are just flowing movement which show the principles of unbalancing and throwing than the actual throw itself.
I have trained in Nage no Kata which takes about 15 minutes to get through. It is usually a special class or clinic, it is not a regular part of class study.
The throws in the Kata are quite different than how they are often used in randori or competition.
Judo is descended from Jujitsu and Jujitsu has atemi or strikes.
You will find Judo defenses against knives, guns and other striking attacks in it's Goshin Kata.
http://judoinfo.com/katagosh.htm
It is illustrated in Kodokan Judo which is an excellent grappling book to pick up if you would like one for your studies.
Gary,
Last time I sparred with Sensei Bethoney he tried to throw me with Kote Gaeshi a wrist throw. Peter B. will throw a shoot at you as well.
And grappling in Uechi is nothing new. I often hear stories of Sensei Jack Summers throwing people in his Dan tests (many years of Judo and jujitsu). Sensei Jon Cieri told me every kumite in the early seventies ended with a takedown. Sensei James Thompson and I talked about his Aikido training in Conneticut 2 years ago.
If you are going to ask what happened to all these takedowns, blame the pretty hardwood floors everyone trains on!
Except at Mikes.
Personally I have nothing to disagree with someone just training Uechi, It was enough for me for 20+ years.
F.
Throws versus locks.
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f.Channell
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mikemurphy
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I just love these type of posts. They go off on crazy tangents that have nothing to do with the original post. "Martial artists are the crrrrraziest peoples!"
But, I'm going to agree and disagree with Bill and Gary. Having spent my time in the arts cross-training (blah, blah, blah), but with Uechi being my primary style (30yrs), I would not say that all is or isn't in Uechi. The arts themselves are just the path we choose to get to wherever we are going. To me, it is that belief I have in the concept of budo. I don't give a flying **** what people know of the concept, it's what I think and keep in my heart and head, and what I try to impart on my students that's important. The Uechi that I do is unique and extremely subjective to me. Does that mean that all is in my Uechi? Nope, only what I want to put into it, and it doesn't matter if you (the public) see it or not.
I've always been a strong personal believer that the arts are whatever you make them. You can be taught "traditionally" (whatever that means), or more ecclectically...doens't matter. What does matter is what you do with that knowledge within your art. Can you go off the deep end with interpretation, etc.? Sure! We've all seen people of ALL rank do kata that looks like Sh##, but that is because that person has made a personal decision (voluntary on unvoluntary) to make their kata look like sh##. The point is...if I see a throw, lock, takedown, etc., in my Uechi kata, it is because I want to see it, and better yet, make it fit into what I think is there. Is that wrong? Nope! Is it right? Who cares, so long as I keep thinking and playing with my arts, and making sure it doesn't get stagnant.
Gary,
Keep on doing what you are doing and seeing what you see in your Uechi, because you are at your best practicing what you believe is the "right" way of doing it.
Bill,
Keep investigating and playing around with what you do. It opens up questions and answers (hopefully) for you to share with those who will listen. They may not agree (regardless of how stubborn you can be
), but they will listen.
The debate tool is a wonderful way to learn!!!
Bill, we really do have to have that discussion on Civil War issues... wow!
mike
But, I'm going to agree and disagree with Bill and Gary. Having spent my time in the arts cross-training (blah, blah, blah), but with Uechi being my primary style (30yrs), I would not say that all is or isn't in Uechi. The arts themselves are just the path we choose to get to wherever we are going. To me, it is that belief I have in the concept of budo. I don't give a flying **** what people know of the concept, it's what I think and keep in my heart and head, and what I try to impart on my students that's important. The Uechi that I do is unique and extremely subjective to me. Does that mean that all is in my Uechi? Nope, only what I want to put into it, and it doesn't matter if you (the public) see it or not.
I've always been a strong personal believer that the arts are whatever you make them. You can be taught "traditionally" (whatever that means), or more ecclectically...doens't matter. What does matter is what you do with that knowledge within your art. Can you go off the deep end with interpretation, etc.? Sure! We've all seen people of ALL rank do kata that looks like Sh##, but that is because that person has made a personal decision (voluntary on unvoluntary) to make their kata look like sh##. The point is...if I see a throw, lock, takedown, etc., in my Uechi kata, it is because I want to see it, and better yet, make it fit into what I think is there. Is that wrong? Nope! Is it right? Who cares, so long as I keep thinking and playing with my arts, and making sure it doesn't get stagnant.
Gary,
Keep on doing what you are doing and seeing what you see in your Uechi, because you are at your best practicing what you believe is the "right" way of doing it.
Bill,
Keep investigating and playing around with what you do. It opens up questions and answers (hopefully) for you to share with those who will listen. They may not agree (regardless of how stubborn you can be
), but they will listen. The debate tool is a wonderful way to learn!!!
Bill, we really do have to have that discussion on Civil War issues... wow!
mike
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RACastanet
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Bill Glasheen
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Mike
You sometimes accuse ME of being "Mr. Diplomacy." But you see...we agree more often than not. You just need to keep Massachusettes politics out of our discussions. 
Start of rant. Don't hold me back, Mike.
You are one of the prototypes I think of when looking for the grappling within the art of Uechi Ryu. You've done your homework with your jiujitsu. You've built a dojo that allows for people to investigate that in "their art." You train your students (I presume) in the art of ukemi early on. And then...what happens will happen.
We don't get the grappling and the takedowns and the locks from Okinawan Uechi practitioners because - as Fred alluded to - they work out on these pretty wooden floors that aren't condusive to slow, high-road learning of that aspect of the Uechi. And then they introduce "sport karate," which severely limits what portion of their kata they investigate from day to day. And they design partner exercises (kyu and dan kumite) that enhance the sporting side of their Uechi.
That is all good, but...
Then you get another generation that comes along looking at my innumerable interpretations of "hawk chases sparrow" (from seichin and sanseiryu), or the seiryu circle moves, or the double shoken at the end of Kanshiwa, or the opening of sanseiryu, or that one shoken scoop in Sanseiryu where you are charging forwards (after the 3 shokens), or aspects of elbow techniques, or the grabbing perspective of "Uechi pointy things," or... or... They look at these KATA interpretations and they say "That's not Uechi!!!" Why? Because Sensei Sport Karate didn't teach him those moves.
Aaaarrrrrgggghhhh!!!!!!!!
Here's another pet peeve... It's the "All is in Uechi" strawman arguments. I never, ever in my life have said "All is in Uechi." But it's the line others attribute to you who are attempting to refute your path.
But I will say this. Back to the line in a movie attributed to the great Arthur Mendelson.
Over time, I discovered one big reason why this was happening. The black belts in my dojo hated it when suddenly they were pulled off their "better than the white belts" pedistal. If new information came in the dojo and they suddenly looked just as stupid as every other struggling beginner, they couldn't handle that.
Folks, please DON'T GET THAT WAY. Truth be told, the winner in a real deadly encounter is likely to be the person who is comfortable being outside of their comfort zone. Why? Because no matter how had you try, that "real life scenario" will never quite be like what you planned for.
IMO, the longer we all practice in the same environment doing the same thing under the same conditions with the same partners, the more likely we're going to be handing the BG our asses at the moment of truth.
I like stirring up the pot in my dojo. I like keeping people a bit unsettled. Yes, some "routine" is good and helpful for efficient learning. But some of this has to be new all the time.
Enough with this side track.
By the way, Mike isn't the only Uechi instructor clever enough not to restrict his students to wooden floor training. Gary Khoury's dojo is a mat from wall to wall. I can do running dive rolls on his floor. You know, Gary - the WKF guy. Gary, the Uechi sport guy. Hmm... Something about that Gary.
Also, David Lamb's dojo in Lincoln Nebraska is on a gymnastics floor routine surface. The floor is spring loaded. Wow... Great experimentation and learning can happen there.
I have no problem with someone consciously choosing to limit the range of their Uechi practice. We all need to make choices. But I do have a problem with the static you encounter when you take new - but obvious - interpretations from Uechi kata and introduce them to those who have not thought of them. I understand it in beginners. I have a big problem when those who should know better do it to you.
One more thing... I think we need to give all beginners a quick class in Venn diagrams. That way we don't have to be watching these inane arguments amongst black belts over what is this art and what is that art.
End of rant.
- Bill
You sometimes accuse ME of being "Mr. Diplomacy."
But you see...we agree more often than not. You just need to keep Massachusettes politics out of our discussions. Start of rant. Don't hold me back, Mike.
You are one of the prototypes I think of when looking for the grappling within the art of Uechi Ryu. You've done your homework with your jiujitsu. You've built a dojo that allows for people to investigate that in "their art." You train your students (I presume) in the art of ukemi early on. And then...what happens will happen.
We don't get the grappling and the takedowns and the locks from Okinawan Uechi practitioners because - as Fred alluded to - they work out on these pretty wooden floors that aren't condusive to slow, high-road learning of that aspect of the Uechi. And then they introduce "sport karate," which severely limits what portion of their kata they investigate from day to day. And they design partner exercises (kyu and dan kumite) that enhance the sporting side of their Uechi.
That is all good, but...
Then you get another generation that comes along looking at my innumerable interpretations of "hawk chases sparrow" (from seichin and sanseiryu), or the seiryu circle moves, or the double shoken at the end of Kanshiwa, or the opening of sanseiryu, or that one shoken scoop in Sanseiryu where you are charging forwards (after the 3 shokens), or aspects of elbow techniques, or the grabbing perspective of "Uechi pointy things," or... or... They look at these KATA interpretations and they say "That's not Uechi!!!" Why? Because Sensei Sport Karate didn't teach him those moves.
Aaaarrrrrgggghhhh!!!!!!!!
Here's another pet peeve... It's the "All is in Uechi" strawman arguments. I never, ever in my life have said "All is in Uechi." But it's the line others attribute to you who are attempting to refute your path.
But I will say this. Back to the line in a movie attributed to the great Arthur Mendelson.
Every once in a while I reshuffle my curriculum. I pull something out that isn't helping, and add in something new that might bring in a fresh perspective to our martial practice. Whenever I do this, you know what happens? The beginners are thrilled, and the advanced students protest in earnest.See what everyone chooses not to see... out of fear, conformity or laziness. See the whole world anew each day!
Over time, I discovered one big reason why this was happening. The black belts in my dojo hated it when suddenly they were pulled off their "better than the white belts" pedistal. If new information came in the dojo and they suddenly looked just as stupid as every other struggling beginner, they couldn't handle that.
Folks, please DON'T GET THAT WAY. Truth be told, the winner in a real deadly encounter is likely to be the person who is comfortable being outside of their comfort zone. Why? Because no matter how had you try, that "real life scenario" will never quite be like what you planned for.
IMO, the longer we all practice in the same environment doing the same thing under the same conditions with the same partners, the more likely we're going to be handing the BG our asses at the moment of truth.
I like stirring up the pot in my dojo. I like keeping people a bit unsettled. Yes, some "routine" is good and helpful for efficient learning. But some of this has to be new all the time.
Enough with this side track.
By the way, Mike isn't the only Uechi instructor clever enough not to restrict his students to wooden floor training. Gary Khoury's dojo is a mat from wall to wall. I can do running dive rolls on his floor. You know, Gary - the WKF guy. Gary, the Uechi sport guy. Hmm... Something about that Gary.
Also, David Lamb's dojo in Lincoln Nebraska is on a gymnastics floor routine surface. The floor is spring loaded. Wow... Great experimentation and learning can happen there.
I have no problem with someone consciously choosing to limit the range of their Uechi practice. We all need to make choices. But I do have a problem with the static you encounter when you take new - but obvious - interpretations from Uechi kata and introduce them to those who have not thought of them. I understand it in beginners. I have a big problem when those who should know better do it to you.
One more thing... I think we need to give all beginners a quick class in Venn diagrams. That way we don't have to be watching these inane arguments amongst black belts over what is this art and what is that art.
End of rant.
- Bill
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Mark Weitz
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Great thread and Mike your post was very inspiring and left me considering some of the ways I've explored Uechi.
Bill, you give great examples of Uechi movements that traslate well into grappling.
Wish I had time right now to add more to the discussion but Bill you reminded me of the first time I learned a different interpretation of the double shoken scooping block - now how's that for a great Uechi MA description of a technique
- in Konchin and Sanseiru.
My other instructor Nanoy was watching me do the movement and asked me to put him in a standing side headlock and make it tight. I did. He places one leg behind my forward leg, strikes me (with kindness
) with the downward block before the "scoop" and then grabs both pant legs near the ankles, lifts both my feet off the floor and throws me.
Worked really well.
Mark
Bill, you give great examples of Uechi movements that traslate well into grappling.
Wish I had time right now to add more to the discussion but Bill you reminded me of the first time I learned a different interpretation of the double shoken scooping block - now how's that for a great Uechi MA description of a technique
- in Konchin and Sanseiru.My other instructor Nanoy was watching me do the movement and asked me to put him in a standing side headlock and make it tight. I did. He places one leg behind my forward leg, strikes me (with kindness
) with the downward block before the "scoop" and then grabs both pant legs near the ankles, lifts both my feet off the floor and throws me.Worked really well.
Mark
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Bill Glasheen
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mikemurphy
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Mark Weitz
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Bill, you'd have a better idea of some of the body movement with this one given your background.
You don't need too much lift, just enough to get him moving forward and your body movement, especially with the hips projects the person forward or if they want to hang on for the ride you look up as you lift keeping good arch in the lower back and dump him on his head.
A senior student of Nanoy's, "Judo John", showed me how the arm that does the circular shoken movement is also a very good choke assisted by the shirt or jacket of your opponent. Obviously it depends on how loose and maleable the clothing is but you can grab the shirt collar and keeping a good grip circle around the opponents head and tighten the choke against the windpipe, basically a one-armed guillotine choke assisted with the gi jacket or shirt. An interesting use of the shoken - and this will depend on the neck size of your opponent and your arm reach - is that as you encircle the neck completing the choke you can squeeze your fist into a shoken against the side or front of the neck. When adequately sunk in the choke plus the pressure of the shoken gives considerable pain compliance. You can always add the support of the other hand to lock/sink the choke deeper. This is a choke that works standing or lying though there may be fewer opportunities standing to use it. Still, against a front tackle you can move into this choke pretty easily after you initially stop the tackle and move to a control position.
Mike, what's a "reb"? Rebel?
You don't need too much lift, just enough to get him moving forward and your body movement, especially with the hips projects the person forward or if they want to hang on for the ride you look up as you lift keeping good arch in the lower back and dump him on his head.
A senior student of Nanoy's, "Judo John", showed me how the arm that does the circular shoken movement is also a very good choke assisted by the shirt or jacket of your opponent. Obviously it depends on how loose and maleable the clothing is but you can grab the shirt collar and keeping a good grip circle around the opponents head and tighten the choke against the windpipe, basically a one-armed guillotine choke assisted with the gi jacket or shirt. An interesting use of the shoken - and this will depend on the neck size of your opponent and your arm reach - is that as you encircle the neck completing the choke you can squeeze your fist into a shoken against the side or front of the neck. When adequately sunk in the choke plus the pressure of the shoken gives considerable pain compliance. You can always add the support of the other hand to lock/sink the choke deeper. This is a choke that works standing or lying though there may be fewer opportunities standing to use it. Still, against a front tackle you can move into this choke pretty easily after you initially stop the tackle and move to a control position.
Mike, what's a "reb"? Rebel?
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GSantaniello
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Mike,
Let me state that i agree with the others in that your post was very nicely put !
Certainly as you indicate, what one's art is to oneself is of a personal nature. As we do not all yield the same benefits or understanding of what we study.
Although many may in fact practice the same art and physically perform the same movements, it is understood that the interpetations can be very different.
Respectfully,
Let me state that i agree with the others in that your post was very nicely put !
Certainly as you indicate, what one's art is to oneself is of a personal nature. As we do not all yield the same benefits or understanding of what we study.
Although many may in fact practice the same art and physically perform the same movements, it is understood that the interpetations can be very different.
Respectfully,
Gary S.
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Bill Glasheen
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Yep... Ian stumbled on that one day while sparring some judoka. It just sort of came to him. Needless to say, it shocked the judoka to have a "karateka" do that to him. As you alluded to, there are many variations on the theme, and this is where you can go to the grapplers to learn the subtleties of it all.Mark wrote:A senior student of Nanoy's, "Judo John", showed me how the arm that does the circular shoken movement is also a very good choke...
Yes, yes, yes!!! There are many variations and orientations of this.Mark wrote:An interesting use of the shoken - and this will depend on the neck size of your opponent and your arm reach - is that as you encircle the neck completing the choke you can squeeze your fist into a shoken against the side or front of the neck.
Once you see how the grapplers do it, you'll never view that shoken the same way again. As I tell folks, this is the "yin" meaning of the shoken (yang of course being all the obvious thrusts and pokes).
And...this is why I eventually came full circle and began to do my shokens the "classic" way. (Same for hirakens) There are ways you can do a stronger shoken for shoken thrust (same with hiraken) but then you lose the dual-use of the technique. Why not develop two entire families of applications with one hand posture?
When you start to see all these things, then so many things begin to come together. You see how form and function interplay so well.
I still have lots of homework and investigation in all this. But the roadmap is quite clear for some time ahead. That's a nice feeling.
- Bill
Well the topic has covered quite a lot since learning to fall was mentioned, but I just wanted to toss out;
It seems silly not to teach breakfalling and rolling because of time constraints or it not being a 'part of your style'. A couple classes into Judo I already could fall well enough to be shoulder thrown. It's such an important skill even if you're not being thrown in class. Even basketball/volleyball/etc. teach breakfalling. If you're doing anything atheletic, learn to fall.
Carry on.
It seems silly not to teach breakfalling and rolling because of time constraints or it not being a 'part of your style'. A couple classes into Judo I already could fall well enough to be shoulder thrown. It's such an important skill even if you're not being thrown in class. Even basketball/volleyball/etc. teach breakfalling. If you're doing anything atheletic, learn to fall.
Carry on.
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Mark Weitz
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I agree. It doesn't take much to get the basics and falling, tripping, slipping, take downs happen so let's learn how to hit the pavement safely.It seems silly not to teach breakfalling and rolling because of time constraints or it not being a 'part of your style'
Bill, good points as there really is "dual use" to many of the pointy thingies. I like the double hiraken as another collar choke; simply grabbing the collar, either side of the jacket or shirt and instead of the usual collar choke you bring your hands in forcing the material to cut off ciculation while the cats paws press up into those nodes underneath the jaw. Oh man does it hurt. I think it was Bob Campbell when he visited our dojo years ago that gave a class in which he incorporated the added "pleasure"
of the Uechi shokens and hiraken when used in conjunction with grabs/holds etc. Really a great study with much material to devle into.Ciao
Mark
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Rick Wilson
Mike,
Let me state that i agree with the others in that your post was very nicely put !
Certainly as you indicate, what one's art is to oneself is of a personal nature. As we do not all yield the same benefits or understanding of what we study.
Although many may in fact practice the same art and physically perform the same movements, it is understood that the interpetations can be very different.
Respectfully,
_________________
Gary S.
You are always a class act, Gary. (Deep Bow)
Let me state that i agree with the others in that your post was very nicely put !
Certainly as you indicate, what one's art is to oneself is of a personal nature. As we do not all yield the same benefits or understanding of what we study.
Although many may in fact practice the same art and physically perform the same movements, it is understood that the interpetations can be very different.
Respectfully,
_________________
Gary S.
You are always a class act, Gary. (Deep Bow)
