Elasticity in Uechi movement

[WY]

Hi Bill,

Thanks again. That does make things clearer. Particularly the difference between the static and dynamic stretch reflex. Although I know what a derivative is, please don't ask me to work one out

Regards,
Wayne

[MikeK]

One other thought... If one believes that each of the three Uechi forms (sanchin, seisan, sanseiryu) should be the unique domains of three properties of fighting (strength, speed, and elasticity) respectively, and that they generally don't mix, then I think it worth mentioning that the Fuzhou Suparinpei I practice/teach has all three of these elements in it. "Lost kata" or not, that's a pretty interesting thing to consider.

Bill, why would they be discrete domains? I'd have thought that one kata would build on the previous. Are the bridge kata a method for blending the three domains?

[Bill Glasheen]

I'm putting this "out there" for consideration, Mike.

I do believe on your first pass through the system, that the emphasis on each of "the big three" is strength, speed, and elasticity. But the degree to which you carry these three general properties of human movement back and forth from form to form is another issue altogether.

Certainly I see 20-year practitioners of Uechi doing "strength" sanchins. Not much more... I think those individuals are happy with what they do. OK...

Then I see Dana whipping her body like a dragon after having done some deep study with an Okinawan master whom Kanei Uechi once called a man who knew what he was doing. (source: Frank Gorman) Here's a master and his student several generations down (Dana) who have looped the information back.

As for being cumulative and carrying it forward, well it's difficult, Mike. For instance... I do a fantastic seisan in front of crowd. Adrenaline just makes it rock and roll in my body. But when I try to apply that same adrenalized speed to Sanseiryu, I've always really f***ed it up. BIG time. It's such a difficult form to do right under pressure. You need to RELAX to get that elasticity, and that's the last thing most untrained athletes can do under pressure. But it's where you need to go.

Being adrenalized and pedal-to-the-medal like Seisan in Sanseiryu just doesn't cut it in my book. And when you do a Sanseiryu like that in front of Gushi - as I have - you'll get that quiet man to chatter away like a school kid. And he's absolutely right.

I wish I was perfect...

As for the bridge kata, well there are many, many reasons for their existence. According to Tomoyose Sensei, the biggest reason was to have more kata to do at demonstrations so you could attract new students. Had to keep up with the Miyagis, you know...

They help the transition from one form to the next. Without them, you'd swear those three forms were from three different systems. I've found them useful in many ways that are independent of these three properties of human movement.

- Bill

[Bill Glasheen]

Another point to make about ATP vs. a spring...

A spring is an energy storage device. When stretched, compressed, twisted, or bent, it stores energy. When you let it go, it releases energy. It is a MECHANICAL energy storage device. A rubber band is also in the same category. Like dead muscle tissue, it stores energy when stretched.

A capacitor is an ELECTRICAL energy storage device.

A water tower or a windkessel is a HYDRAULIC energy storage device.

A battery is a CHEMICAL energy storage device.

ATP in muscle tissue is a BIOCHEMICAL energy storage device.

- Bill

[f.Channell]

Bill,
I'm not sure if mochi and tenguua have the same meaning or not. They are definately similiar.
There are two Shinjo brothers also. 10 years apart. Both excellent Karate men.
And speaking of elasticity, both Shinjo brothers can do full splits and show outstanding flexibility. Wish I could.
Fred

[R_Garrelts]

Hello Dr. Glasheen,

I'm not a Uechi-ryu practitioner, but I have really enjoyed reading through this and other discussions on your board. Thank you for taking the time to inject some science into the dojo.

Regarding your comments about translational motion in Uechi-ryu technique:

I am curious, does the boxer you mentioned earlier actually lift his front leg off the ground or allow his front knee to bend while he is throwing a straight right hand? It seems his comment about driving with the legs could apply equally to rotational movement.

Also, you mentioned earlier that the "dynamic stretch reflex" is proportional to dL/dt. Do you know any estimates of the value of the proportionality constant for, say, elite basketball players and gymnasts compared to average people? Also, is there any sort of a "safety mechanism" that might prevent a stretch reflex from being triggered if dL/dt (or delta L, for that matter) is too great and the triggering of a reflex might result in more damage to the limb than if no reflex were triggered? My background is entirely physics and math, so I don't really know much about any of this. If you have any recommended reading on this subject, I'd really appreciate it.

Thank you again for taking the time to write out your previous explanations.

Best Regards,

Richard

[Bill Glasheen]

Richard

Man, you ask some good questions!

does the boxer you mentioned earlier actually lift his front leg off the ground or allow his front knee to bend while he is throwing a straight right hand?

Not very much. He achieved his movement primarily with slide-stepping and skip-stepping. (Slide stepping implies first moving the front foot. Skip stepping involves first sliding the back foot to the front foot, and then slide stepping.) While he was in the boxing ring, this was his primary means of movement.

My friend's early martial background was in Bando. That's basically Burmese kickboxing, and it looks quite a bit like Thai boxing in the ring.

In contrast Uechika can do the same thing while lifting the front knee substantially. That's the crane creeping in. The goal often is to jam or slip an impending kick. Boxers don't have to worry about that.

It seems his comment about driving with the legs could apply equally to rotational movement.

From the standpoint of force, you are absolutely correct. Rotational and translational movement achieve the same net effect.

The advantage of the translational movement was that it allowed him to cover the distance between him and his opponent while simultaneously attacking. This left little opportunity for his oppoent to counterattack when he moved in, and it got them on the defensive early in a flurry. So you both bridge the distance gap AND supercharge your punch at the same time.

With the Uechika in a kata like Sanseiryu, they are doing full steps and double steps into elbow techniques. The main objective here is to neutralize an attack which has a limited field of effectiveness. By going inside the danger crescent, you both avoid being hit AND give yourself the momentum to attack in a range that a Uechika knows and loves.

Also, you mentioned earlier that the "dynamic stretch reflex" is proportional to dL/dt. Do you know any estimates of the value of the proportionality constant for, say, elite basketball players and gymnasts compared to average people?

I have not done any quantitative studies in the field. But I can check out what has been done. It may take a while. The exercise physiology literature is in a domain foreign to that which I spend most of my time.

Also, is there any sort of a "safety mechanism" that might prevent a stretch reflex from being triggered if dL/dt (or delta L, for that matter) is too great and the triggering of a reflex might result in more damage to the limb than if no reflex were triggered?

Wow! You must have been around when the creator was making the human animal.

The muscle spindle reflex is responsible for the dynamic stretch reflex (triggered by speed of lengthening), static reflex (triggered by lengthening) and the negative stretch reflex (triggered when a muscle suddenly loses its load. It keeps you from smacking yourself in the face when you lose your grip on something.)

The Golgi tendon organs detect tension applied to the muscle during muscle contraction or muscle stretch.

Basically the Golgi tendon organs prevent you from overdoing it. When the tension gets too great, it sends a disabling signal to the muscle.

I don't really know much about any of this. If you have any recommended reading on this subject, I'd really appreciate it.

The best source for all this is a basic book on physiology. You can go to a University where they teach medical students, and get one off the shelf of their bookstore. They're not cheap... A medical library is a good temporary source.

As I type, I'm reading out of Guyton's Textbook of Medical Physiology, 1976. It's amazing how useful these books are even years after taking a course.

For practical considerations, there are a number of books on plyometrics worth reading. Donald Chu is considered one of the early experts in the field. The classic is Jumping Into Plyometrics. But there are many other good books in the field these days, as you will discover by perusing "related books" on Amazon.

- Bill

[R_Garrelts]

From the standpoint of force, you are absolutely correct. Rotational and translational movement achieve the same net effect.

The advantage of the translational movement was that it allowed him to cover the distance between him and his opponent while simultaneously attacking. This left little opportunity for his oppoent to counterattack when he moved in, and it got them on the defensive early in a flurry. So you both bridge the distance gap AND supercharge your punch at the same time.

OK. I see what you are saying. I was a little curious about the initial comment because most of the harder hitting boxers I have seen generally just translate forward to bridge the gap (while throwing a jab to keep the opponent busy) and then "post" pretty dramatically on the forward leg--arresting much of the translational velocity of the torso before the rear arm even begins to extend. Of course, they keep "driving through" with the rear leg, and this results in rotation about a stationary vertical axis close to the far shoulder. I wondered if maybe your friend was referring to this sort of movement rather than pure translation.

Thanks for all the info on plyometrics and stretch reflexes; I've got some reading to do!

Regards,

Richard

[Bill Glasheen]

Richard

That was a very good explanation on your part. This is one common way of achieving this. Some fighters however lead with a reverse punch rather than a jab. Then things get reversed a bit.

Note that when you slide forwards while doing the jab (from a left stance) you are rotating your body a bit (clockwise or to the right) to get more reach. This then "cocks the trigger" for the subsequent rotational movement (counter-clockwise or to the left) at the end for the right cross or reverse punch.

The way Uechi fighers use their elbow movements in Sanseiryu is different still. One starts with a left shallow stance and ends up in a right, deeper stance. It's a much longer, left-right step with more total momentum. But the principle of translational momentum is the same.

- Bill

[R_Garrelts]

Note that when you slide forwards while doing the jab (from a left stance) you are rotating your body a bit (clockwise or to the right) to get more reach. This then "cocks the trigger" for the subsequent rotational movement (counter-clockwise or to the left) at the end for the right cross or reverse punch.

That's really a good point. I particularly liked your kinetic/potential energy post earlier. Sometimes, I wonder if we in traditional karate get so caught up in the idea of executing any and every technique "explosively" and with no preliminary movement from a stationary posture that we fail to take advantage of the fact that the finishing point of one technique is quite often a prime position to deliver some other technique. The result is that "combinations" tend to be stilted, and individual techniques themselves tend to be devoid of much body movement.

[Bill Glasheen]

Thank you! Your last post made all my efforts in this thread worthwhile.

- Bill

[Dana Sheets]

So in rehearsal mode - the practitioner consciously puts the body into the prepped position, in application, the practitioner must flow with whatever happens - hopefully having enough body awareness to take advatange of the power strokes lined up in the course of engagement.

One thing I'm exploring right now is the idea of how long do you openly emphasize these prepartory movements in training. At a certain point you'd hope that your body would "get it" and you'd be able to flow through your techniques without prepping.

Being elastic looks differently than learning elasticity IMHO.

[Bill Glasheen]

The way you do your sanchin thrusts, Dana, things are kept pretty simple.

In the "shoken scoop" movements of Sanseiryu, there is more of a "load, release" movement. For years I was taught to scoop, and then thrust. And I would have certain "unnamed" Okinawans on Thompson island tell me what in my mind seemed all wrong. It was so reductionist. Scoop with little leg movement. Stop. Thrust. Stop.

Then one day I did Sanseiryu for Tomoyose Ryuko. He showed me the way he did that movement. Once you see it done right...

Then I saw Gary Khoury do it with the same single load-release movement. I presume he picked that up from Nakahodo Sensei. He made it look beautiful. (Don't know why Gary never competed in kata...)

Then you get Gushi Sensei saying it, and Shinjo Sensei saying it... Pretty soon you have a quorum.

I spent this "intermediate" period of time doing what I like to call "Uechi robot" Ryu, Dana. I didn't start that way. Rad Smith had learned directly from early Mattson and from Tomoyose Ryuko. His body understood all this. He flowed well, and with elastic movement. But there was this period in time in Okinawa (it seems) where folks from on high must have been trying to develop a kind of "vanilla Uechi" that everyone could agree on. Or so it seems... Things got broken down, and flow disappeared. Movement became more exact, but in my mind it lost its proper energy source.

I rediscovered a lot of this myself, Dana, and was reinforced to do this by many people I respect.

The sad thing is, you don't have to teach a kid how to swing a baseball bat with elastic movement. And you don't have to teach a shortstop how to catch a screaming grounder and whip a throw to first with fluid movement. And folks usually don't spend a lot of time teaching a pitcher to wind up and throw. They just "do it" until they optimize.

Boxers seem to pick up a lot of this stuff without much fuss... But then that is a sport, and their repertoire is more limited.

We've had Olympic training lifts for generations. Things went away from this because of the popularity of bodybuilding and fitness. But the emergence of plyometric training and a rediscovery of basics caused many trainers to rediscover the benefits of the old.

Moving this way really is quite natural, Dana. That's the kicker. It's taking advantage of and enhancing natural human movement. On the surface, it's not rocket science. It's just good, fluid, powerful movement. "Nautral athletes" know this instinctively. The average Joe/Sue just needs a little bit of help.

I've said this before, and I'll say it again. Fuzhou Suparinpei really helped me see the light. I cannot do this thing with power and speed - and survive - unless I do it the right way. Years of teaching it just helped me arrive at the optimal way to move. Good choreography has the message built in. And then when you go back to the simpler kata and try to move the same way, you see the message is built in that choreography as well.

- Bill

[Glenn]

Hi Richard

Just noticed you're in Kearney Nebraska, live in Lincoln myself. Bill finds his way out here every once in a while. You keep asking questions right up his alley like that and he might find Nebraska more often.

[R_Garrelts]

Hi Richard

Just noticed you're in Kearney Nebraska, live in Lincoln myself. Bill finds his way out here every once in a while. You keep asking questions right up his alley like that and he might find Nebraska more often.

That or I'll have to make my way to Virginia. It's scary how much I find myself agreeing with all his posts here; we're definitely on the same wavelength. Please let me know if he makes it out to Lincoln again (that is, if none of you mind a non-Uechi guy hanging around and screwing up kata ).

Between this and the Daito-ryu guys (at John Roseberry's dojo) bringing over Kenkichi Ohgami, lately I've been finding more and more reasons to go to lincoln.

Regards,

Richard