Guided or Independent Study

[Dana Sheets]

Should martial arts students train more in class or more on their own?

When I started training - my understanding was that you train tons on your own and come to class for corrections and partner work. So class time (3-6 hours a week) represented about 1/3 to 1/4 of your training. That was the theory. I'm curious what other folks think.

[Ted Dinwiddie]

I agree.

If you don't practice alot on your own, class time is almost wasted.

[chewy]

I know this kind of an obtuse answer, but I firmly believe that there is no practice time rule that fits all students. In fact, there may be a point of diminishing returns in practice time. I know some old-school students may disagree with this assesment, but I know for a fact that there is such a thing as practicing too much for me.

Example, a student goes on vacation for a week (or maybe the dojo is closed because your sensei is on vacation). You practice your new kata/kumite/technique for 2-3 hours a day, determined to improve it before class resumes. The problem is, one or two techniques get sloppy or are done incorrectly (maybe you just learned the kata less than a month ago) and you continuously train your muscle memory incorrectly during this period. When you come back to class you need to "unlearn" your mistakes as your instructor points them out to you. This isn't forward progress.

You need to attend class often enough to receive corrections and assimilate this new info in your spare time. But you don't want to overtrain bad technique or to the point of physical exhaustion. By exhuastion I don't mean your are standing there panting unable to move; I am referring to damaging ligaments, tendons, and muscle because of incorrect technique.

For me, when my back is not acting up, here is what works for me:

- 3 to 4 times a week in the dojo (1.5 to 2.5 hours)
- 3 to 4 times a week doing back excersizes and cardio

That leaves VERY little time to do much else; but I usually do find the time to practice kata and techniques outside of class (maybe 1 to 3 hours a week). I don't even have kids yet! Just imagine how this schedule is affected by the demands of your employer(s) and family!

However, even without the extra practice I notice improvements if I can write down corrections from my sensei when I get home from class. That way I pop open my notebook before my next class and make a conscious effort to fix the problems. This may not work for everyone though.


cheers,

chewy

[chewy]

Let me also point out, that it is questionable how much useful practice you can get outside the dojo when it comes to kumite. Improving my Kumite and Bankai is tough without a partner.

cheers

chewy

[maxwell ainley]

When I started learning uechi ,if the dojo had been open for 7 hrs per day thats were I would have stayed ,so things had to be practiced back home to top up on matters ,were as now I can stay in the dojo to my hearts content its 6 yard away from the bungalow .never rated two /three day weeks ,so some home work makes sense ,say once a student understands what he/she is being taught .
I am a independant teacher ,but this does not imply I can't be taught things ,I like to work alone ,so every day I try to have some time alone ,I appreciate more when coming back into a class ,the exchange of energys between others in the learning process ,can't be had just working alone ,but being capable of solitary workouts improves on areas that would be missed if one always needed company ,I try to specalize in helping my student to become strong in solitary time periods ,its more easy to be strong in company ,but go a bit weak kneed when facing being alone .
Strength of character can be very quickly found alone ,and this strength projected back to the students .

[Mills75]

My sensei always told me the key to success was to put sweat on the floor and work hard but he also emphasized that sometimes you get more with less..meaning alot of what chewy had to say..my teacher says practice doesn't always make perfect sometimes it makes permanent if you practice techniques incorrectly or sloppy...so he reminds me all the time that it is far more effective to practice for one hour fully focused and with care then to practice for ten halfhazzardly.so I like this philosophy and feel it makes sense..i would say kata is corrected and practiced at the dojo but honed at home and more attention is given at home to that.but the things like two man drills and so forth are the bulk of class cause we don't have that ability to practice it that way at home..but yes he tells me practice correctly with focus even if it's an hour it's better for you than practicing constantly and doing it sloppy or not focused..i agree with chewy it would seem a waste to practice at length incorrectly instead of making sure you got the proper corrections and focusing and practicing it the proper way..and time isn't so much the issue to me it's the quality of practice...

an old saying...a student asks his sensei how long it will take to become a master and the teacher says about ten years and so the student says sensei how about if I come in more than the other students and the sensei says then it will take twenty years.and the student says how about if I practice twice as hard as the other students and the sensei says then it will take thirty years.and the students says sensei how come every time i say i'll do this and that the time for me to become a master increases.and the sensei replies because with one eye on your destination you only have one eye left to find the way...

[jkolb]

Just going to come out of the wood-work here and say that practicing at home is pretty important, but not all of us have time to do that. I think that even if you can't practice the physical movements just running kata and bunkai through your head helps a lot. Sometimes I do sanchin or seisan in my head so much that I have trouble getting to sleep.

But more importantly it lets you hone the mental attitude you need and makes your body more receptive to the movements if your mind already accepts them.

[Jim Robinson]

Dana
The first ten years of my martial arts (Uechi) was devoted to at least three hours of kata practice per day seven days a week outside of the dojo. The second ten I practiced two hours every other day.
The third ten was down to and hour a week outside the dojo.
And now that I am nearing the end of my fourth decade I just teach.
Well ,what I really do now is go to my dojo early and workout for fifteen minutes or so and don't work out at home anymore.
Thats what most senior students do but they won't tell you so.
For my fifth decade I may be living next door to George in Florida sitting on his back porch knocking back a few cool ones and chatting about how hard we used to work out in the good old days at home and the dojo.
Jim Robinson

[Ted Dinwiddie]

Ray Berry used to STRONGLY encourage personal practice. We had class twice a week for 2 hours or so. He would comment on the difference between those who had obviously been working on things outside of class and those who had not. He taught, and I strongly believe, that one's personal practice is what defines one as a Martial Artist and not just somebody who "takes karate". Throughout my MA journey I have had ebb and flow in my intensity and my available time to practice and attend class, Ray taught that "even if it's just five minutes of focused practice" do it every day. I have done that for the most part and it has helped my life a great deal. Compared to others I have met and worked with, I am not good, but I am still practicing. I am still learning to face myself, strictly, with severe eyes.

To play on the title of this thread, I would even go so far as to say that, to me, MA is guided independent study.

[maxwell ainley]

Ted , Great stuff ,plus same to all .

max.

[Dana Sheets]

There is also a key difference between mindless repetition and thoughtful rehearsal has has already been mentioned in this thread.

The japanese word for the concept, as I understand it, is keiko.

Keiko:- Practice, originally to study (kei) ancient times (ko) this term is used for the practice of bugei(martial arts) and geino(arts). This word doesn't simply mean repeating the practice, it also includes the importance of one's attitude to the art being studied. The process is also connected to the everyday life and the endeavours of creating a new self through the unification of these two elements (art and life).

source:
http://www.pabudden.com/kodokan/terminology.shtml

[benzocaine]

You need to go to class for a correction or two. And home is where you drive yourself nuts trying to make your body and mind assimilate these corrections into your practice.

[cxt]

Dana

Have to agree with you in that I was also told "class" was where you made sure you doing it right and got correction so you could practice it "right" on your own.

[2Green]

Having been told countless times that I'm doing a technique wrong, I now only practice general stuff and Kata mnemonics at home.
Way too often I believed I had the right idea, went home and practiced it faithfully until it "sank in", and then 6 months later have to re-learn it all over again a different way.

So I've given up on that.
I've resigned myself to the MA philosophy of "learn it like this for now" only to have it changed later. The ingraining through personal practice only makes it harder to re-learn the newest "right way".

I have come to grips with the reason why MA cannot be learned like many other skills like music for example. (I'm a musician.)
In music you learn technique correctly from day one and perfect it over a lifetime.
In MA these skills cannot be presented in "final form" and simply honed over time. One simple skill is learned then replaced by the next level. That's why I don't drive myself crazy drilling techniques at home anymore, because I know they will be eventually replaced by another level, and I don't want to have to unlearn physical habits.
Doing so puts one in a very perilous period of non-ability until the "new" version kicks in.

NM

[Ted Dinwiddie]

2Green wrote:

Having been told countless times that I'm doing a technique wrong, I now only practice general stuff and Kata mnemonics at home.
Way too often I believed I had the right idea, went home and practiced it faithfully until it "sank in", and then 6 months later have to re-learn it all over again a different way.

I was critiquing kata for an 8th kyu in our Saturday class who is "on the list" for his 7th kyu test in May. After working through a pretty good laundry list with him he smiled and said
"I must be making progress, you all are picking on different stuff now."

It's a process of rough forming then refining and adjusting. It is also a periodic "AHA!!" which causes one to go back to the basic exercises and see what's what. I suspect, 2Green, your personal progress has been greater than you might believe.

Doing so puts one in a very perilous period of non-ability until the "new" version kicks in.

This begs the questions, with all due respect: What ability had you before that was not in need of further development? How will you progress without letting go of what you do now?

We sit up before we can crawl and we crawl before we can walk and you know the progression, but just because I can run and climb does not mean I no longer need to sit, or crawl. Give yourself some credit. Effort pays off and this is no exercise in instant gratification.

Your post sounded so resigned and even discouraged. I hope that's not true.