In one tournament I attended, one of our younger, lean greenbelt guys walked straight into a straight punch from a guy who probably weighed at least 275. Our green belt went straight back the way he came, head over teacups, did a backwards roll and popped up two rings down. He shook his head once and walked right back into the ring with only a small bruise on his chin.
He was knocked back instead of knocked out.
Some techniques - like the classic Japanese-Ryu side thrust kick - lend themselves to the knock back. They are meant to make space.
However IMHO most of the Uechi striking techniques are not meant to knock the bad guy away from you. And in fact they are meant to do more than just damage the body - they are meant to shock the Central Nervous System (CNS.)
I'm talking about this not really from a kyusho perspective but from the idea that any short focused percussive can jolt the CNS. Kyusho is more the idea that well directed percussive strikes to certain points can jolt the CNS more effectively and result in a more certain outcome.
Obviously hitting harder isn't bad - but I think pushing harder is bad. You should be able to knock the bad guy away from you if that's your goal - but you should be equally if not more effective in knocking the bad guy out. That's the difference between Uechi and closed-fist Whatever-Ryu. That's why training the traditional fists matter and knowing the traditional targets matter.
And as a woman against most men - it's my only real hope. My skill and knowledge will have to be the equalizer for his brute strength.
Electricity and Physics
Moderator: Available
-
Dana Sheets
- Posts: 2715
- Joined: Mon Feb 25, 2002 6:01 am
Electricity and Physics
Did you show compassion today?
-
jorvik
Well you never see boxers pushing. When they hit..they hit 
They don't damage their hands because they aim for targets and they practice to hit things.just the same as if you use open hands.
The long, lunge type punches can easily become pushes and that is not necessarily a bad thing.http://www.londonaikido.com/atemi_waza.htm
check out the first move "Shomen ate" this could easily be a failed palm heel...but the mechanics must change to turn it into the throw you see here.
Generally, folks don't practice enough using open hand in combinations.
Another thing is Uechi is half hard soft, if you've ever seen a "soft" stylist stick to someone when they were sparring then you can understand why it would be stupid to push them off
They don't damage their hands because they aim for targets and they practice to hit things.just the same as if you use open hands. The long, lunge type punches can easily become pushes and that is not necessarily a bad thing.http://www.londonaikido.com/atemi_waza.htm
check out the first move "Shomen ate" this could easily be a failed palm heel...but the mechanics must change to turn it into the throw you see here.
Generally, folks don't practice enough using open hand in combinations.
Another thing is Uechi is half hard soft, if you've ever seen a "soft" stylist stick to someone when they were sparring then you can understand why it would be stupid to push them off
-
Stryke
Staraight punches in generall have less knockout ability than circular punches IMHO , unless they aint got there chin tucked .
But nothing wrong with pushing punches if there used for that purpouse , you should be able to do both , Having a push effect used in the right place can be great for disrupting balance , And if you like a little distance , say youve got a shotokan tool kit for example
, drive em back and start kicking the bejeebus out of em .. (beejebus being a technical term you learn shortly after the secret handshake)
and Jorvik you know I`m going to say boxers dont hurt there hands becuase the use wraps and gloves
, but hey ... good points
I know your thinking Uechi technique vs (Insert generic karate) style technique , but it`s really a utilisation of the technique thats missing not the style . A man of 275 could be knocking folks out with a straight punch , perhaps he just was holding it back ?
I`m a beleiver in the weapons of Uechi , or more accurately a lot of the chinese Quan-fa weapons , I actually feel that theres a lack of push in a lot of generic karate , to much emphasis on recoil and not enough time on target , this could possibly have the same effect of negating power and not knocking the opponent out .
Having said all this , theres just as much kyusho in the shotokan kata as Uechi , and theres open hand strikes if you dig , and .... If you get a profficent stylist there is very small surface arera on a traditional
punch , actually quite pointy .
Ask Laird
, he was sure I was hitting him with shokens one day , but the bruises came up two distinct knuckle marks ..... I actually think that`s the only time I managed to make him flinch .
So good thoughts on how to use Uechi Dana , and I agree , but I think it`s more a case of good karate vs good style .
The only time you ever have control is when your in close and have contact , regardless of style .
But nothing wrong with pushing punches if there used for that purpouse , you should be able to do both , Having a push effect used in the right place can be great for disrupting balance , And if you like a little distance , say youve got a shotokan tool kit for example
, drive em back and start kicking the bejeebus out of em .. (beejebus being a technical term you learn shortly after the secret handshake)and Jorvik you know I`m going to say boxers dont hurt there hands becuase the use wraps and gloves
, but hey ... good points The side thrust kick is a fight ender , if you nail someone with it and the result is to only create space , then IMHO you cant perform the technique properly , Ive had my ribs broken from them . It`s probably my only exception to above the thigh kicking in a real situation . When I pull it I can use it to push , It`s an ego technique to pick someone off there feet and throw em out of the ringSome techniques - like the classic Japanese-Ryu side thrust kick - lend themselves to the knock back. They are meant to make space.
I know your thinking Uechi technique vs (Insert generic karate) style technique , but it`s really a utilisation of the technique thats missing not the style . A man of 275 could be knocking folks out with a straight punch , perhaps he just was holding it back ?
I`m a beleiver in the weapons of Uechi , or more accurately a lot of the chinese Quan-fa weapons , I actually feel that theres a lack of push in a lot of generic karate , to much emphasis on recoil and not enough time on target , this could possibly have the same effect of negating power and not knocking the opponent out .
Having said all this , theres just as much kyusho in the shotokan kata as Uechi , and theres open hand strikes if you dig , and .... If you get a profficent stylist there is very small surface arera on a traditional
punch , actually quite pointy .Ask Laird
, he was sure I was hitting him with shokens one day , but the bruises came up two distinct knuckle marks ..... I actually think that`s the only time I managed to make him flinch .So good thoughts on how to use Uechi Dana , and I agree , but I think it`s more a case of good karate vs good style .
The only time you ever have control is when your in close and have contact , regardless of style .
-
Bill Glasheen
- Posts: 17299
- Joined: Thu Mar 11, 1999 6:01 am
- Location: Richmond, VA --- Louisville, KY
Dana
I got to thinking about this a bit. This is actually a bit complex. And IMO, it has only a little to do with Uechi vs. others styles.
When you refer to pushing vs. percussive strikes, what you are speaking of in the language of physics is elastic vs. inelastic collision. An elastic collision preserves the forward momentum of the striking object. An inelastic collision loses that momentum, and instead converts some or almost all of it to other types of energy. That energy from the standpoint of martial arts would be breaking bones, tearing soft tissue, etc.
So an elastic strike like the aikido shomen ate (front toss) is very different from a karate shomen zuki (front thrust).
I agree with Marcus that a properly-thrown yoko geri (side thrust kick) should be quite capable of an inelastic collision (breaking ribs, making you pi$$ blood from a damaged kidney, etc.) if properly thrown.
So, what makes one person's technique more inelastic than another? Well it has to do with the ability of the target to stretch and release that energy. This gets into biophysics, and it can be complex. And we need to consider things like the nonlinear properties of biological tissues. And we need to consider differences by location of the body, age of the person, etc.
Every attack is a bit different. But it IS somewhat related to instantaneous pressure (force per unit area) on an object. If your weapon is capable of penetrating faster than an object can absorb and release that energy, then you get the inelastic effect (a.k.a. damage). Think of the body like the spring in your car. If it isn't such a bad bump, the spring can absorb and release the energy put into the suspension system. If it is a really bad bump, you might break the spring.
Fighting humans also have an active component that adds to all this - rolling with the punches.
As for the CNS, well... Then you get even more complex. Now you are talking about the addition of what we might call a "force multiplier." The CNS can respond in ways (electrically) that go beyond just straight force. Force gets converted to electrical signals in the body and/or brain so strong and so profound that it may cause something akin to a fuse blowing. It's one thing to break a jaw bone. It's something altogether different when you spin the head around with one of Marcus' favorite hook techniques to the jaw, and send nonphysiologic electric signals up and down the brain stem. The body does a collective "What the f***..." and checks out - temporarily if you are lucky. Kyusho of course gets a little more complex than that, but you get the idea.
The skinny is this. CNS aside, if you want that inelastic collision, you need speed and you need to focus the force on a smaller area. Secondarily you want to have follow-through. In other words, you want to continue adding force into the target after you make contact. It's what Jimmy Malone refers to as "time on target." Anyone who chops wood understands the concept.
And there are other "tricks" like torque (force times lever arm) on an object (like the neck) when you do a looping punch.
- Bill
I got to thinking about this a bit. This is actually a bit complex. And IMO, it has only a little to do with Uechi vs. others styles.
When you refer to pushing vs. percussive strikes, what you are speaking of in the language of physics is elastic vs. inelastic collision. An elastic collision preserves the forward momentum of the striking object. An inelastic collision loses that momentum, and instead converts some or almost all of it to other types of energy. That energy from the standpoint of martial arts would be breaking bones, tearing soft tissue, etc.
So an elastic strike like the aikido shomen ate (front toss) is very different from a karate shomen zuki (front thrust).
I agree with Marcus that a properly-thrown yoko geri (side thrust kick) should be quite capable of an inelastic collision (breaking ribs, making you pi$$ blood from a damaged kidney, etc.) if properly thrown.
So, what makes one person's technique more inelastic than another? Well it has to do with the ability of the target to stretch and release that energy. This gets into biophysics, and it can be complex. And we need to consider things like the nonlinear properties of biological tissues. And we need to consider differences by location of the body, age of the person, etc.
Every attack is a bit different. But it IS somewhat related to instantaneous pressure (force per unit area) on an object. If your weapon is capable of penetrating faster than an object can absorb and release that energy, then you get the inelastic effect (a.k.a. damage). Think of the body like the spring in your car. If it isn't such a bad bump, the spring can absorb and release the energy put into the suspension system. If it is a really bad bump, you might break the spring.
Fighting humans also have an active component that adds to all this - rolling with the punches.
As for the CNS, well... Then you get even more complex. Now you are talking about the addition of what we might call a "force multiplier." The CNS can respond in ways (electrically) that go beyond just straight force. Force gets converted to electrical signals in the body and/or brain so strong and so profound that it may cause something akin to a fuse blowing. It's one thing to break a jaw bone. It's something altogether different when you spin the head around with one of Marcus' favorite hook techniques to the jaw, and send nonphysiologic electric signals up and down the brain stem. The body does a collective "What the f***..." and checks out - temporarily if you are lucky. Kyusho of course gets a little more complex than that, but you get the idea.
The skinny is this. CNS aside, if you want that inelastic collision, you need speed and you need to focus the force on a smaller area. Secondarily you want to have follow-through. In other words, you want to continue adding force into the target after you make contact. It's what Jimmy Malone refers to as "time on target." Anyone who chops wood understands the concept.
And there are other "tricks" like torque (force times lever arm) on an object (like the neck) when you do a looping punch.
- Bill
Like Marcus I've had my ribs cracked by side kicks. If the kickers were making space it was inside my body. 
It's also a wonderful way to fold someone over.
It's also a wonderful way to fold someone over.Been there Bill. Had it intentionally done to me during sparring and it was weird, you really do a "WTF?". Afterwards you realize that the other guy could do anything he wanted to you for those seconds that you're having your semi-out of body experience. And that was with the technique pulled.The body does a collective "What the f***..." and checks out - temporarily if you are lucky.
I was dreaming of the past...
-
jorvik
Quote
and Jorvik you know I`m going to say boxers dont hurt there hands becuase the use wraps and gloves , but hey ... good points
Well true to a point.they can still kill you with "protected" hands, check out the other thread on this forum about the female boxer, and there are still bare knuckle boxers about, even today.
Boxing is a tremedous art with a very long history, going back, some say to Ancient Greek times, and it is based on impirical knowledge, i.e. tried and tested.
you may well have the opinion that open hands are better, but that is just an opinion it doesn't have the same scientific weight behind it, and there is nothing to suggest that you run any less risk of damaging your hands by using open hand strikes, if anything, I would say that it was more likely,
when you look at some of the uechi inner ridge hand strikes to the throat and one knuckle punches
.......and I do really like the open hand (Heck, I've even written an article about it in the articles section)................I think that the bottom line is that in any fight you are going to get hurt.and part of that hurt is just as likely to be against one of your striking areas. If you are intending to use weapons that's a different area.....but don't forget that Dan Inosanto was of the opinion that the fist position in boxing (from knuckles down in bareknuckle days to knuckles facing outward as today).was changed by Filipno influence...and they sure know weapons
and Jorvik you know I`m going to say boxers dont hurt there hands becuase the use wraps and gloves , but hey ... good points
Well true to a point.they can still kill you with "protected" hands, check out the other thread on this forum about the female boxer, and there are still bare knuckle boxers about, even today.
Boxing is a tremedous art with a very long history, going back, some say to Ancient Greek times, and it is based on impirical knowledge, i.e. tried and tested.
you may well have the opinion that open hands are better, but that is just an opinion
it doesn't have the same scientific weight behind it, and there is nothing to suggest that you run any less risk of damaging your hands by using open hand strikes, if anything, I would say that it was more likely,when you look at some of the uechi inner ridge hand strikes to the throat and one knuckle punches
.......and I do really like the open hand (Heck, I've even written an article about it in the articles section)................I think that the bottom line is that in any fight you are going to get hurt.and part of that hurt is just as likely to be against one of your striking areas. If you are intending to use weapons that's a different area.....but don't forget that Dan Inosanto was of the opinion that the fist position in boxing (from knuckles down in bareknuckle days to knuckles facing outward as today).was changed by Filipno influence...and they sure know weapons
-
Stryke
wheres your scientific weight Jorvik ?it doesn't have the same scientific weight behind it
And yes mine is just an informed opinion .
I think boxings great no argument , but closed fists do break , I can palm a brick wall full force were I know I would break my fist .
And boxing as we know it is relatively modern , It was much more NHB back in the days , didnt a round end when one opponent was thrown ? . and vertical punches might just be superior who knows .
If one chooses Fists no problem , But boxers without gloves will break there hands just like a karateka will .
And yes maybe even open hands will suffer damage .
where did I say boxers arent great fighters ? . Your putting words in my mouth . I could argue an old Tai chi master could Kill you with open hands .... It`s pointless , I`m not looking for a pissing match , I commented in a light hearted manner thats all .they can still kill you with "protected" hands, check out the other thread on this forum about the female boxer, and there are still bare knuckle boxers about, even today.
the way some do them your probably right . But both techniques work , it`s based onI would say that it was more likely,
when you look at some of the uechi inner ridge hand strikes to the throat and one knuckle punches
Your an old scrapper Jorvik .... ever broken your hand in a fight ?and it is based on impirical knowledge, i.e. tried and tested.
When I see statements like this I`ll continue to express my opinion , And I`m willing to agree to disagree . But to infer boxers dont damage there hands is plain wrong . I was pointing out with gloves your probably right .. , When the ##### hit`s the fan then targeting is a bonus not a certainty .They don't damage their hands because they aim for targets and they practice to hit things.just the same as if you use open hands.
Maybe my knuckles and hands are just dainty and fragile mate , I abandoned them because my fists wont stand up to it . And because I feel most others who need self defence (women , small men , children , etc ) are likely to be in the same position .
personal experience ... I suggest everyone make up there own mindsand there is nothing to suggest that you run any less risk of damaging your hands by using open hand strikes, if anything
-
jorvik
Hi Marcus................I wasn't starting an argument .............and you are right, we are all entitled to our own opinion, and mine is that I would much rather fight a karateka than a boxer, in fact for street fighting,bar room brawling or anything "real World" I think boxing is king.
you are right about hand damage, I ( fortunately, touch wood) have never broken my hand, I have badly sprained it doing a hook against a pad
( now I hook so that the fist turns over and the big two knuckles make contact).and I know that there are some great boxers who have to stop because their hands cannot take the constant punishment of pounding bags and they get small fractures in their hands...much like overzealous use of the makiwara.
Quote
If one chooses Fists no problem , But boxers without gloves will break there hands just like a karateka will .
And yes maybe even open hands will suffer damage .
why are open hands exempt from damage??..why only "maybe"
.I say that if you'll damage your closed hand then you'll certainly damage your open hand.
Quote
wheres your scientific weight Jorvik ?
I've seen literally thousands of boxing matches and there must have been millions over the years, that is the scientific evidence..I've never seen an "open hand fight"..so I guess I can't say how efficient that would be
Quote
I can palm a brick wall full force were I know I would break my fist .
yeah but can you fight a boxer using only palm heels while he is firing off jabs and crosses and hooks...in my original post I talked about "shomen ate" which is basically a palm heel throw but with that you can connect wrong and break all your fingers if you are not careful.
I've only ever seen one guy who was good with his open hands......................he was in fact tremendous, the only punches he ever did where to the legs, and occasional hammer blows to the head.....as I've said I do love the open hand, but don't go expecting to fight a boxer using it and A) not break your hand because you are not punching
or B) have him break his hand...........with MA's you can't go with the flavour of the month ( you can actually, but you'd be stupid )...Boxers will always be very dangerous, and so will old style wrestlers....although there are less of them about, and if you can steal some of their moves that is temendous.......I must admit that I do favour a pocket stick ...I carry a small innocent box spanner
which makes a great hand load and I practice hammer fist and side hammer fists with it, I use my left hand as a live hand as in Escrima
.............and you are right, we are all entitled to our own opinion, and mine is that I would much rather fight a karateka than a boxer, in fact for street fighting,bar room brawling or anything "real World" I think boxing is king.you are right about hand damage, I ( fortunately, touch wood) have never broken my hand, I have badly sprained it doing a hook against a pad
( now I hook so that the fist turns over and the big two knuckles make contact).and I know that there are some great boxers who have to stop because their hands cannot take the constant punishment of pounding bags and they get small fractures in their hands...much like overzealous use of the makiwara.Quote
If one chooses Fists no problem , But boxers without gloves will break there hands just like a karateka will .
And yes maybe even open hands will suffer damage .
why are open hands exempt from damage??..why only "maybe"
.I say that if you'll damage your closed hand then you'll certainly damage your open hand.Quote
wheres your scientific weight Jorvik ?
I've seen literally thousands of boxing matches and there must have been millions over the years, that is the scientific evidence..I've never seen an "open hand fight"..so I guess I can't say how efficient that would be
Quote
I can palm a brick wall full force were I know I would break my fist .
yeah but can you fight a boxer using only palm heels while he is firing off jabs and crosses and hooks...in my original post I talked about "shomen ate" which is basically a palm heel throw but with that you can connect wrong and break all your fingers if you are not careful.
I've only ever seen one guy who was good with his open hands......................he was in fact tremendous, the only punches he ever did where to the legs, and occasional hammer blows to the head.....as I've said I do love the open hand, but don't go expecting to fight a boxer using it and A) not break your hand because you are not punching
or B) have him break his hand...........with MA's you can't go with the flavour of the month ( you can actually, but you'd be stupid
)...Boxers will always be very dangerous, and so will old style wrestlers....although there are less of them about, and if you can steal some of their moves that is temendous.......I must admit that I do favour a pocket stick ...I carry a small innocent box spannerwhich makes a great hand load and I practice hammer fist and side hammer fists with it, I use my left hand as a live hand as in Escrima
-
Stryke
Yup I can and have , but it was only training , I would rather fight an average karateka than an average boxer , In this we agreeyeah but can you fight a boxer using only palm heels while he is firing off jabs and crosses and hooks
But it`s not the style it`s the man , could I fight Tyson i doubt it , could the average boxer take Mas Oyama in his prime ... who knows ... apples and oranges mate .
I've seen literally thousands of boxing matches and there must have been millions over the years, that is the scientific evidence..I've never seen an "open hand fight"..so I guess I can't say how efficient that would be
I`ll try find some clips of Pancrase , and some pre glove NHB stuff , I remember a great clip of Bass Rutten , He used palms so as to not break there fists .
Great thread! Hope you don't mind me jumping in.
"I would rather fight an average karateka than an average boxer" I totally agree with this only because " an average boxer" (what ever that is, youth, jouneyman pro, white collar guy having fun) is used to getting hit. He's in the ring, even with a limited set of attacks and blocks and he's trading forceful blows and moving. It seems somebody who's agressive and used to contact may give a green or brown belt the blues if they don't spar often.
"...lean greenbelt guys walked straight into a straight punch from a guy who probably weighed at least 275... did a backwards roll and popped up two rings down. He shook his head once and walked right back into the ring with only a small bruise on his chin." If the 275 pounder did things right I'd think the smaller fellow would be headless. What's the equation governing the "power" of a strike. Isn't speed the most important factor? Wow that's funny, good beard on the kid.
"Staraight punches in generall have less knockout ability than circular punches IMHO , unless they aint got there chin tucked ." What? Come on. Now I know you people are much more accomplished in martial arts than I am, but I've watched thousands of boxing matches and nothing is more effective (this includes knockouts not just points) than straight punches. Hell I just watched a Uechi vid from Okinawa and powerful straight rights were the deciding factor. Similarly in boxing straight sharp punches end fights. All top commentators / trainers I've heard agree on this. Hooks, uppercuts are for specific in close situations only. A sharp one two has ended countless fights. A counter right puts people down. So I respectfully disagree. (But of course all our punches have knock out potential right?)
On the argument concerning striking with a palm vs knuckles. I guess it's preference. I prefer striking with a fist because that's what I know. That of course doesn't mean you couldn't whoop me quick if you're a palm person. I like fists because I've spent a lot of time on the heavy bag practicing striking with hard punches in bunches. I do like the fact that a punch gives you about 2 inches more length than a palm and will take that even though it's more fragile. I've broken my right hand twice. Once in a fight. Hit the fellow on the top of the head. He ducked while I was trying to remove his chin. Only a fracture but it swelled like a softball.
Are there specific strikes with a palm that alow an extra advantage vs with a fist?
What training methods do you all suggest for developing blow that can shock the Central Nervous System (developing explosiveness)?
"I would rather fight an average karateka than an average boxer" I totally agree with this only because " an average boxer" (what ever that is, youth, jouneyman pro, white collar guy having fun) is used to getting hit. He's in the ring, even with a limited set of attacks and blocks and he's trading forceful blows and moving. It seems somebody who's agressive and used to contact may give a green or brown belt the blues if they don't spar often.
"...lean greenbelt guys walked straight into a straight punch from a guy who probably weighed at least 275... did a backwards roll and popped up two rings down. He shook his head once and walked right back into the ring with only a small bruise on his chin." If the 275 pounder did things right I'd think the smaller fellow would be headless. What's the equation governing the "power" of a strike. Isn't speed the most important factor? Wow that's funny, good beard on the kid.
"Staraight punches in generall have less knockout ability than circular punches IMHO , unless they aint got there chin tucked ." What? Come on. Now I know you people are much more accomplished in martial arts than I am, but I've watched thousands of boxing matches and nothing is more effective (this includes knockouts not just points) than straight punches. Hell I just watched a Uechi vid from Okinawa and powerful straight rights were the deciding factor. Similarly in boxing straight sharp punches end fights. All top commentators / trainers I've heard agree on this. Hooks, uppercuts are for specific in close situations only. A sharp one two has ended countless fights. A counter right puts people down. So I respectfully disagree. (But of course all our punches have knock out potential right?)
On the argument concerning striking with a palm vs knuckles. I guess it's preference. I prefer striking with a fist because that's what I know. That of course doesn't mean you couldn't whoop me quick if you're a palm person. I like fists because I've spent a lot of time on the heavy bag practicing striking with hard punches in bunches. I do like the fact that a punch gives you about 2 inches more length than a palm and will take that even though it's more fragile. I've broken my right hand twice. Once in a fight. Hit the fellow on the top of the head. He ducked while I was trying to remove his chin. Only a fracture but it swelled like a softball.
Are there specific strikes with a palm that alow an extra advantage vs with a fist?
What training methods do you all suggest for developing blow that can shock the Central Nervous System (developing explosiveness)?
-
Dana Sheets
- Posts: 2715
- Joined: Mon Feb 25, 2002 6:01 am
Hi eric, and welcome.
Wow - lots of comments from lots of different directions.
Hmmm maybe picking the side thrust kick is a bad idea but I don't see broken ribs as a fight ender. It ends many tournament matches but I've never see footage or heard tell of one that ended a street fight. I'm happy to be enlightened though.
The summation of total body joint forces that results in an impact on another person can come out like the crack of a whip or the blast of a 50mm.
The snapping and circlular movements to come extent have their greatest power at certain peak moments or on circle particular arcs of force.
Straight punch move through on a linear line of force. So I'm thinking about something that doesn't get retracted until it has gone all the way out on it's vector. I think of a "jab" as a snapping movement because you pull it back while it still has forward potential.
The reason I like the traditional fists is that you've focused your point of impact. The closed fist works. Thousands of people have been knocked out with one. But can the traditional open or semi-open fists be a little more effective/efficient than the closed fist if the open ones are well trained because they focus the impact?
Bill's explaination about hitting something with more force than it can absorb = damage is very useful. This is what I'm getting at when I talk about striking vs pushing.
Obviously pushing is very useful for throws and whatnot but when I started this thread my focus was on hitting to do damage. Pushing and throwing for damage are another conversation.
So to hit for damage you have to impact with the greatest amount of force over very little (but not too little) time to give what you're hitting the lowest percentage of opportunity to be able to absorb it.
To me if you hit someone and they take two steps back then you pushed. You gave their body enough time to use the low-brain with a pre-programmed response to absorb your force. It's good to know how to hit someone so they smack into a brick wall or a car or into the street or their other bad guy buddy - but it is also important to know how to hit so that as much of your hit as possible goes into them and makes damage.
What I'm not so sure about is how to best train this without blasting away on my dojomates. I can tell when I get tired on the heavy bag and start pushing but that doesn't mean I'm sure what I should do to fix it.
Wow - lots of comments from lots of different directions.
Hmmm maybe picking the side thrust kick is a bad idea but I don't see broken ribs as a fight ender. It ends many tournament matches but I've never see footage or heard tell of one that ended a street fight. I'm happy to be enlightened though.
The summation of total body joint forces that results in an impact on another person can come out like the crack of a whip or the blast of a 50mm.
The snapping and circlular movements to come extent have their greatest power at certain peak moments or on circle particular arcs of force.
Straight punch move through on a linear line of force. So I'm thinking about something that doesn't get retracted until it has gone all the way out on it's vector. I think of a "jab" as a snapping movement because you pull it back while it still has forward potential.
The reason I like the traditional fists is that you've focused your point of impact. The closed fist works. Thousands of people have been knocked out with one. But can the traditional open or semi-open fists be a little more effective/efficient than the closed fist if the open ones are well trained because they focus the impact?
Bill's explaination about hitting something with more force than it can absorb = damage is very useful. This is what I'm getting at when I talk about striking vs pushing.
Obviously pushing is very useful for throws and whatnot but when I started this thread my focus was on hitting to do damage. Pushing and throwing for damage are another conversation.
So to hit for damage you have to impact with the greatest amount of force over very little (but not too little) time to give what you're hitting the lowest percentage of opportunity to be able to absorb it.
To me if you hit someone and they take two steps back then you pushed. You gave their body enough time to use the low-brain with a pre-programmed response to absorb your force. It's good to know how to hit someone so they smack into a brick wall or a car or into the street or their other bad guy buddy - but it is also important to know how to hit so that as much of your hit as possible goes into them and makes damage.
What I'm not so sure about is how to best train this without blasting away on my dojomates. I can tell when I get tired on the heavy bag and start pushing but that doesn't mean I'm sure what I should do to fix it.
Did you show compassion today?
-
jorvik
Hi Dana .....good thread that you've started here...........as you know I wrote this ( and I'm sorry to keep bringing this up ) http://uechi-ryu.com/oldsite/greek_bouncer.htm
.....the reason I mention this, is to show I'm not biased against the "open hand" the wigan bouncer was truly unbelievable, a real master.he didn't start karate till he was 30...and he was just awesome, somebody that you really wouldn't want to get on the bad side of. He'd spar with champions,and you'd see that they just didn't want to be there.that he was uncontrollable ."a real "loose cannon" .however, I have trained a lot with boxers, and to me they are a bit feral.like scrapyard dogs
to me it all comes back to timing.like the great Musahi said .......and there are different timings
something like Shomen ate is different to a boxers combination...............you cannot ignore boxing, all the really bad street fight vids that we see are from folk with a boxing background.like the pizza fight
.that guy had done some..and not too a high level .......sooo imagine the really good guys...I've trained with little blokes that could wipe me out in nano seconds
It is a real problem on what to settle for.............I do Tai-chi
and I' am a proper chimeister .I believe in qi and all other sorts of whacky stuff.but tc has lots of nastiness in it..you don't need to be tremendously powerful to shoken somebody in the temple ( Shoken is a one knuckle punch .I'm guessing) and its in tc (and I see lots of TC in Uechi..but I mean "good TC" not the cr*ppy stuff that you most often see )
.and there is lots of other stuff like that.you don't need a tremendous amount of delivery to really hurt..that is what most bad guys know already, that is why they slash with little knives...the really bad stuff that I know doesn't require power per se.just a lot of nastiness and the balls to do it
Maybe I'm getting off the point a bit.but a shoken to the temple or "Two winds blows ears" a double temple strike from TC would have dropped your green belt like a stone ...and all the king's men and the blokes from ER wouldn't be able to put the pieces together again
.....good thread that you've started here...........as you know I wrote this ( and I'm sorry to keep bringing this up ) http://uechi-ryu.com/oldsite/greek_bouncer.htm.....the reason I mention this, is to show I'm not biased against the "open hand" the wigan bouncer was truly unbelievable, a real master.he didn't start karate till he was 30...and he was just awesome, somebody that you really wouldn't want to get on the bad side of. He'd spar with champions,and you'd see that they just didn't want to be there.that he was uncontrollable
."a real "loose cannon" .however, I have trained a lot with boxers, and to me they are a bit feral.like scrapyard dogs to me it all comes back to timing.like the great Musahi said
.......and there are different timingssomething like Shomen ate is different to a boxers combination...............you cannot ignore boxing, all the really bad street fight vids that we see are from folk with a boxing background.like the pizza fight
.that guy had done some..and not too a high level .......sooo imagine the really good guys...I've trained with little blokes that could wipe me out in nano secondsIt is a real problem on what to settle for.............I do Tai-chi
and I' am a proper chimeister
.I believe in qi and all other sorts of whacky stuff.but tc has lots of nastiness in it..you don't need to be tremendously powerful to shoken somebody in the temple ( Shoken is a one knuckle punch .I'm guessing) and its in tc (and I see lots of TC in Uechi..but I mean "good TC" not the cr*ppy stuff that you most often see ).and there is lots of other stuff like that.you don't need a tremendous amount of delivery to really hurt..that is what most bad guys know already, that is why they slash with little knives...the really bad stuff that I know doesn't require power per se.just a lot of nastiness and the balls to do it
Maybe I'm getting off the point a bit.but a shoken to the temple or "Two winds blows ears" a double temple strike from TC would have dropped your green belt like a stone ...and all the king's men and the blokes from ER wouldn't be able to put the pieces together again
Side kicks and back kicks, or any kicks, must have velocity to create shock on impact. If you ever watched Joe Lewis or Chuck Norris, fold people in two, you would understand.
Dana
Why is it that Uechi is known as an open handed system?
Punches do work, and then they don’t. In the ring or sporting match, you break your hand or cut it badly, sever your tendons, etc., the match is stopped and you go home.
In the street, you do that, you won’t be able to access any of your ‘continuum’ weapons, and you will go to your early grave.
Why did Tyson break his hand?
Fact is he broke his hand in a real fight, and so will you. Or you will cut your knuckles.
Police studies favor palm strikes over punches. Why?
Why did Shushiwa not put punches, as we know them, in the three katas?
Pekiti Tirsia, uses some awesome power slapping over fists, why?
Palm strikes don’t work? Go up against someone really trained, like our Arthur Rabesa, and he will fold you in two with a palm strike to your head or body.
Punching does work, but what of the risk when you are in a street fight?
Did Shushiwa teach karate as a street defensive art, or as a sporting event?
Either way, why did he not teach punches? Maybe he was a ‘beginner’ too? Smile, Bill.
Marcus, you are wasting your breath. This will never sink in.I was pointing out with gloves your probably right .. , When the ##### hit`s the fan then targeting is a bonus not a certainty .
Dana
Maybe so, Dana, but why don’t we see many fisted strikes in the big three?That's why training the traditional fists matter and knowing the traditional targets matter.
Why is it that Uechi is known as an open handed system?
Punches do work, and then they don’t. In the ring or sporting match, you break your hand or cut it badly, sever your tendons, etc., the match is stopped and you go home.
In the street, you do that, you won’t be able to access any of your ‘continuum’ weapons, and you will go to your early grave.
Why did Tyson break his hand?
Fact is he broke his hand in a real fight, and so will you. Or you will cut your knuckles.
Police studies favor palm strikes over punches. Why?
Why did Shushiwa not put punches, as we know them, in the three katas?
Pekiti Tirsia, uses some awesome power slapping over fists, why?
Palm strikes don’t work? Go up against someone really trained, like our Arthur Rabesa, and he will fold you in two with a palm strike to your head or body.
Punching does work, but what of the risk when you are in a street fight?
Did Shushiwa teach karate as a street defensive art, or as a sporting event?
Either way, why did he not teach punches? Maybe he was a ‘beginner’ too? Smile, Bill.
Van
-
jorvik
Side kicks and back kicks, or any kicks, must have velocity to create shock on impact. If you ever watched Joe Lewis or Chuck Norris, fold people in two, you would understand.
yeah I've watched these guys.they are better than good
quote
Maybe so, Dana, but why don’t we see many fisted strikes in the big three?
Why is it that Uechi is known as an open handed system?
But lewis and Norris both endorse boxing..and especially Lewis....so Van ,I really don't know where you are coming from
Quote
Why did Shushiwa not put punches, as we know them, in the three katas?
Honestly Van who gives a flying Fck .Lewis worked his talk, and frankly still does,,,Who did Shushiwaha fight
............Lewis, is to me, what America represents, What made america great....You take what is beneficial and yopu use it ..........if it works...if you don't then you reject it........but you are always well prepared to test your theories...lewis never rejected Boxing
quote
Pekiti Tirsia, uses some awesome power slapping over fists, why?
Palm strikes don’t work? Go up against someone really trained, like our Arthur Rabesa, and he will fold you in two with a palm strike to your head or body.
Yeah would a bitch slap work against Lewis.I think not
....and he is nowhere near someone like Tyson or Ali...........hate to burst bubbles ...Yeah it would be cool against a nomark plastic gangster wannabe...but to someone learning "karate"..as opposed to fighting guys for fun..pleeeeeeeeeez
yeah I've watched these guys.they are better than good
quote
Maybe so, Dana, but why don’t we see many fisted strikes in the big three?
Why is it that Uechi is known as an open handed system?
But lewis and Norris both endorse boxing..and especially Lewis....so Van ,I really don't know where you are coming from
Quote
Why did Shushiwa not put punches, as we know them, in the three katas?
Honestly Van who gives a flying Fck
.Lewis worked his talk, and frankly still does,,,Who did Shushiwaha fight............Lewis, is to me, what America represents, What made america great....You take what is beneficial and yopu use it ..........if it works...if you don't then you reject it........but you are always well prepared to test your theories...lewis never rejected Boxing
quote
Pekiti Tirsia, uses some awesome power slapping over fists, why?
Palm strikes don’t work? Go up against someone really trained, like our Arthur Rabesa, and he will fold you in two with a palm strike to your head or body.
Yeah would a bitch slap work against Lewis.I think not
....and he is nowhere near someone like Tyson or Ali...........hate to burst bubbles
...Yeah it would be cool against a nomark plastic gangster wannabe...but to someone learning "karate"..as opposed to fighting guys for fun..pleeeeeeeeeez -
Stryke
Jorvik , can you really not see it ?
NO ONE IS DISSING BOXING !!!!!!
I think it`s great , just there is a huge difference between gloves and no gloves .
I do all the boxing punches with open hands .... Valid ?
http://www.sherdog.com/videos/videos.asp?v_id=28
hey Jorvik , go here to sherdog and downlaod bas ruttens highlight clip , palms to the head without gloves ... reckon he could fight a boxer ?
Go El Gaupo !!!
I`d love to see him fight Lewis or Norris
NO ONE IS DISSING BOXING !!!!!!
I think it`s great , just there is a huge difference between gloves and no gloves .
I do all the boxing punches with open hands .... Valid ?
http://www.sherdog.com/videos/videos.asp?v_id=28
hey Jorvik , go here to sherdog and downlaod bas ruttens highlight clip , palms to the head without gloves ... reckon he could fight a boxer ?
Go El Gaupo !!!
I`d love to see him fight Lewis or Norris
