Electricity and Physics

[jorvik]

Dana, just a thought.ever thought about applying the body mechanics of your sanchin to an elbow strike

Van
I think that we agree about a lot of things, and I think that about most folks on these fora.it's just when you come to express them it gets kinda confused.......elbows,head butts knees all good stuff....and I value the open hand more than the fist..I really don't like karate that looks like poor man's boxing, it should look like karate....or do boxing ( ....although there can be some overlapp )
As I've grown older I've started to model myself on the Wigan bouncer

[Bill Glasheen]

Entertainment indeed...

I have opinions on lots of stuff expressed here, but those opinions have been properly represented and the "stuff" is a little off topic. I yield to the master debaters... er...



Just a few comments here...

On broken ribs

First, be careful suggesting broken ribs don't stop fights, Dana, only because we need to have a proper perspective on everything here.

First... Even a rifle shot to the heart may not stop someone. I have anecdotes with subsequent autopsies about men who continued to wreak major havoc for half a minute after getting the left ventricle of the heart shot through. And then you have other folks who will stop when just looked at the wrong way. It's all relative, and it all depends.

Second... If your life depends on it, you very well may be able to fight through a few broken ribs. But if it doesn't... A broken rib can cause a pneumothorax, puncture a major organ, lacerate the descending aorta, etc. It is a serious injury. I have martial arts references on that subject by medical personnel.

Third... Broken ribs can tear through the artery/vein/nerve bundle between each and every rib and cause major bleeding and/or pain. I know... Having done literally hundreds of lateral thorachotomies, I know that going in the wrong way (without deference to those bundles) can make for a very long, or - worse yet - very short day in the lab.

So... I call a broken rib a major disadvantage for the person having gotten it - at the very least. The time it becomes a liability is in the case of someone who stops to admire his/her work.

On hitting with pointy things

Has anyone bothered to mention that pointy things require targeting, and the ability to target decreases with increased levels of neurohormonal stimulation? (I'm being sarcastic, Van and Marcus...)

Granted we get into debates about the ability to control the SSR, overtraining to minimize losses from reduced complex and fine motor coordination (like shooting with smaller targets), etc., etc.

It just needs to be said.

When you debate the merits of a palm heel vs the blade or heel of a yoko geri vs a shoken and all that other stuff, there's never any free lunch. There is no silver bullet. There is no magic style-o-doom TM that beats all others. IMO, you do the following: 1) pick something or a collection of things, 2) learn their strengths and shortcomings, 3) practice to maximize the strengths, and 4) learn how to execute YOUR game plan as best you can when the stuff hits the fan.

As an example, I'll pick on Dana because she's my friend and she knows it's just an academic exercise. A side thrust kick CAN end a fight or be a major determining factor if you end up being a little less tournament and a little more street with its application. A side thrust kick scraping down someone's shin and finishing through the top of someone's foot with your shoe on is a big-time winner. So is the same to the fold in someone's hip (followed up with something bad), to the knee, etc. It also can be a finishing technique (to the head or neck) to someone you just dropped with a trip, sweep, or throw. Smashing Pumpkins isn't just a band...

We can be very "Uechi" with our vanilla tournament karate techniques if we throw away the specifics and apply the principles.

- Bill

[jorvik]

Quote
"I yield to the master debaters... er...
As an Englishman......I love toilet humour but in future I want to be referred to as Mr.W

I agree with a lot of what you say gross motor/ complex skill and there really is no definitve study that applies to all.
Just recently I has the chance to drive really dangerously but with a police instructor, on a skidpan..I'm not a great driver .but I am a control freak ...and I loved every minute when I was in the driving seat.........a lot of my colleagues drove like sheeple and where terrified...........now I am not a car person, my own car is about 10 years old, but hey, it goes and that's all I expect.point that I'm making is that I didn't percieve danger so I wasn't scared.although others where ( but having said that stick me in a lift and I'll scream like a girlie)
how much does our perception affect our motor skills
quite a lot I would imagine

[JimHawkins]

The push vs. the strike to me is about velocity and when that velocity develops. With a push the velocity builds mainly after contact on the target while a strike builds velocity before impact.

In CMA there are names for different kinds of energy and there are gray areas between 'push' energy and ‘strike’ energy; variations on the former can be used when one does not or cannot afford to injure.

I always tell students not to push the bag or whatever they are hitting, relaxing the strike and releasing the energy into the target; (one reason we use a sandbag which cannot be pushed) this is what relaxed power is all about IMO. But, I think there is a real tendency to improperly train thrusts and do them as pushes; many fail to release, perhaps related to trying to use kime, this I do not see boxers doing and we in WCK do not train this either. In any case this is why I think many people find circular strikes are easier to make power with, because the circular ballistic nature of the circular strike appears more conducive to releasing energy instead of holding on to it; I mean you can’t really push with a circular strike, while the straight ones can and often are trained this way. So, thrusting seems a bit more elusive for some in developing the snap and release that is needed for doing damage.

As a young karateka, in one of my first sparring sessions with our resident nidan, he nailed me with a stop side kick to the mid section and I was sent flying the entire length of the dojo finally sliding into the far back corner... (what fun!) I have no doubt that had he wanted to injure me that he would have made the kick explosive instead of pushy, in which case I can imagine coughing up organ parts for days after...

Regarding targets: IMO visual targeting in all but the grossest sense is a myth in real combat. In WCK we do not target things other than the centerline and use natural lines related to structure, contact feel and position.

Boxers don't hurt their hands? Hmmmm... I would have to agree that it's mainly because of the gloves and wraps, which is used all the time and this has a big impact on how one uses their fists. I did some light sparring the other day with bare hands and after a few minutes I found that I had received a few nice deep cuts from my partner's finger nails on the back of one of my hands which became quite bloody after a short time... Very easy to injure the hands in a myriad of ways... IMO.

[Dana Sheets]

Oh good lord I had no idea everyone's secret favorite technique in the world was a side thrust kick. I must remind myself never to use that one as an example in the future - it is far too distracting.

Thanks Jim for coming back to the main ideas of this thread

push vs hit

and

physical damage of percussive hits amplifed by CNS shock

So Jim's suggested that hitting bags of sand is one way to learn the difference between hitting and pushing. Jim - are these bags hanging in the air or sitting on a tabletop?

[JimHawkins]

So Jim's suggested that hitting bags of sand is one way to learn the difference between hitting and pushing. Jim - are these bags hanging in the air or sitting on a tabletop?

Hi Dana...

No actually the 'sand bag,' and there are many kinds of them, are normally hung on a strong cement wall or beam that will not give or break no matter what.

Most all strikes are trained on the bag and since the bag will only 'dent' depending on how much and what kind of sand or other material is used, it cannot be pushed.

It's very common in WCK and other CMA to hit things (other than people) that do not move or only give slightly, like the sand bag or the wooden dummy, which, used to be buried in the ground in the old days.

Hitting immovable objects seems to help develop structural reinforcement encouraging hitting with grounded body power as well as conditioning the tools.

Getting back to the sidekick..

Actually a good example btw!

When I first started training the sidekick I found that kicking the big tree in the front yard worked well in training the push out of the kick. Since I was kicking something immovable it forced me to maintain balance and forward intent when the energy would return back into my body. It's easy to see, feel and hear a push (silent) vs an impact (crack) when hitting something like that.

This may be true in general, not sure, but I have found that hitting mushy stuff creates training artifacts. After all when you hit a person their body isn't normally going to react like a big pillow...

[JimHawkins]

physical damage of percussive hits amplified by CNS shock

For this IMO you get the most bang for your buck with sequential striking. Of course structure is needed for power and grounding, but just as important IMO is using rapid, closely spaced strikes into the target center.

The sequential striking also aides in balance destruction and filling each moment in time with as much attack, which is why it is a force multiplier. So, this works from a physics standpoint and also from a percussive/physiological standpoint because it allows for improved energy transfer in the head, going directly through the skull and into the brain bypassing the protecting fluid.

[Van Canna]

Best to follow the GEM golden rule...

Tell us what you recommend, not what is wrong with what those "other people" are doing"! First, you won't convince them that they are wrong.

Second, they won't give a flying #$@% about what you have to say, because you dissed what they are doing!

As Stryke points out, nobody has dissed anybody or anything. And no-one is trying to convince anyone that what they are doing is wrong.

And I don’t think we should recommend anything. We can outline our preferences in training and programming, and many have done just that. In the end people will do as they see best for themselves.


But _ These are just discussions to explore concepts and to highlight the medical and professional views of fighting professionals and law enforcement personnel.


We are discussing the inherent dangers of fisted strikes as outlined by experts in the field, and what the alternatives to the punches seem to be in the eyes of fighting experts, and law enforcement trainers.

We have also said that punches do work, that boxing is good, that punching is what you will mostly see on the street, that a good punch will stop a fight, but that there might be a heavy price to pay, and for many there has been, as according to the research, thus ‘no punching training’ for police.


So are punches any good? The answer is they can be good and they can be bad.


Still we don’t have an answer as to why punches were not made a big part of the original Uechi katas. Uechi is defensive martial arts, so why would the ‘founding fathers’ leave out punching, as we know punches, in the forms, if punching is supposedly so effective?

Why the open hand as opposed to the punch in the forms?

These are all legit questions, without anyone feeling 'dissed' _

[Van Canna]

Dana

The closed fist is a terrible weapon for women.

And for men as well, in my view. Yet not only we seem to program punches in our training, we neglect to learn other common punches, in attack or defense, like the jab, hook, uppercut, overhand etc.

The question is WHY? If we are going to do punches, why leave those out in our training?

Jorvik,
Not to worry, pal. Marcus and I 'love you' for introducing us to "Highland Park" Scotch, which we enjoyed very much at my house when Marcus came to visit.

[Van Canna]

Bill

A side thrust kick CAN end a fight or be a major determining factor if you end up being a little less tournament and a little more street with its application.

True, and I smile when I read this. Truth is that the majority of Uechi practitioners don’t know how to do side thrust kicks, the way they should be done properly such as in styles like TKD or TSD. Uechi does not teach this _ no such thing in our forms.

In the old days of the Mattson academy, our fighting team needed to go outside Uechi, to learn those and other ‘prevalent’ tournament kicking techniques on our own to get the job done, and that we did extremely well.


I realized what had to be developed in the sidekick, in particular, when I once held four boards for master Henry Cho at the John Hancock Hall, and felt the immense power of his explosive side ‘blade’ kick.

A blow that could have killed me if it had connected with my sternum as opposed to the boards he pulverized. Something to be experienced to truly understand.

Some of us went on to develop some powerful kicks, as evidenced by our Arthur Rabesa, and Walter Mattson, who had mastered a spin flying kick that would knock you out of the ring and out, as the formidable Taro Tanaka, Japanese collegiate champion and street fighter, found out to his dismay at a Rhode Island tournament.

And I smile even more when I realize that many who argue this have never learned or experienced ‘velocity kicks’ in open tournaments against the best kickers of the day, such as the ‘infamous’ TSD fighters of Bobby Cheezic we fought against many times.


A favorite way of the ‘Cheezic’s boys’ was to practice kicking trees.

Once _ I fought the ‘Ash man’ the best heavy weight of Cheezic, in a full contact match on stage in Hartford Connecticut.

Knowing his immensely explosive kicking power, the only way I survived the match was to close in and attack and smother his punches and kicks before they gained any momentum.

You gave the 'Ash man' [Neil Hoffler_ Six four_ 250 lbs_] 'ramp speed' you were digging your own grave.

[Van Canna]

Jim

The push vs. the strike to me is about velocity and when that velocity develops. With a push the velocity builds mainly after contact on the target while a strike builds velocity before impact.

Thank you, Jim_ As I wrote initially, it is about velocity, and this must be trained as well, although, as you teach, you realize that some students, genetically, don’t have any fast twitch fibers to speak of, so they will not develop any significant velocity in their strikes, kicks or punches.

[2Green]

Hi Dana: PM for you.

2Green

[MikeK]

I'm still focused on the idea that a human isn't a heavy bag because humans come with an electrical system in addition to a lot of semi-liquid mass. Obviously if you hit most folks hard enough they fall down - but I might not be able to generate that kind of shotgun power. So then I need to think about doing more with less

Worked on some of this today, was learning about using CNS(different name but CNS works here) as setups for finishing moves, but I need to think about it some. Oh, and only one CNS technique was closed fist and it was an uppercut.

Mike - I'm totally confused by your definition of a jab.

quote: ...jabs tend to be long range techniques with most of the forward potential used up....

That seems to me to be the opposite definition of a jab. In a jab the target is well within range and the limb need not fully extend to make contact. By that definition a jab is a short-range technique. Quick in/Quick out.

Maybe this will explain it better than I can Dana.

http://www.eastsideboxing.com/news.php?p=2339&more=1

When you walk into your gym today stop all the action. Gather your amateurs and ask them this question: What is the purpose of a jab? Be mentally prepared to get responses that are far away from what you are looking for but that is the purpose of the question. According to old-time trainers there are only three answers to that question and they should fall into this order of importance. The most important purpose of a jab is to keep your opponent at bay, the second purpose of a jab is to setup your offensive array, and the third, and this is the one many current trainers don’t teach, is to tear the facial skin of your opponent. Too gross? Get out of boxing.
........
Turn your wrist slightly inward until you first see the inside cusp of your palm. This is the correct position of your jab hand before you punch. From this position focus on moving your fist forward while keeping the hand in this position. Pay attention to your elbow. If the elbow goes outward (chicken-wanging) then you are telegraphing. When you have your arm approximately 80-90% fully extended turn your hand over and back quickly THEN retract your arm straight back to its ORIGINAL position. Never overextend the elbow because you might injure it.

http://www.how-to-box.com/boxing/boxing_punches

[Stryke]

Hey Bill , is this the time I get to call you a schzithead ?

ya know what happens to those that sit on the fence dont ya



I`m with Van on the Highland Park , was a great drop Jorvik

As for Jabs there traditionally used to hold your opponent at punching range , A good jabs the key of a good boxing game , dont see them as short range punching techniques myself .

Really Dana I think your talking more about targeting and power generation .

I dont see push techniques , just poor execution , or intentional pushes .

Poor Fajing would be a push , good fajing is well shock like you talk about .

As for hitting a bag , i dont think swinging indicates power , if your generating good power the bag should more likely Jump more than swing .

I`m all for learning how to hit better targets , but the priority should be to develop more power , From watching your kata I`d think you capable of quite a lot of force .

Failing that and feeling power is always going to be limited , i`d recomend looking at force continuim solutions , I think it more realistic for smaller people to consider needing an equaliser . In fact bigger people too

the most effective way to learn how to hit and hurt , rather than hit a bag , hit a training partner .... Nothing is as effective in learning to hit than hitting the human body .

Of course you have to progress gradually , but the learning curve is great ..

[JimHawkins]

although, as you teach, you realize that some students, genetically, don’t have any fast twitch fibers to speak of, so they will not develop any significant velocity in their strikes, kicks or punches.

I have seen many new people who just couldn't get anything down right, not even close... One confident 'teacher' after another would try to show them the technique over many days and yet some folks still could not get it. After many separate attempts over several days one of these folks said thank you and good bye...

It does seem that some people have a tough time getting down certain moves for whatever reason, but these folks are not the majority IMO.

I think that most people, even those who are not naturally fast can improve their power by learning to fire and turn off muscles using relaxed power. This reduces internal resistance; now combine this with aligning the bones in the body and powering strikes with all the joints while using advanced structure and I think you can go a long way toward eliminating limitations resulting from ‘genetic slowness'.