Post your Sanchin Kata Video here

[Guest]

quote:
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Originally posted by gmattson
But should we move our feet in an exaggerated circle as we step because we might at some time find an opportunity to convert the step into a tripping action? (Don't think I've ever seen anyone ever make that move work)
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My point, I guess, was whether it is necessary to perform every step with this one application in mind, in order to make it work when needed. I like the open ended approach, where a movement can be worked in any number of ways. . . but, keeping in mind the primary reason for doing it. . . Balance while moving one foot from a rear position to a front position, and therefore should do that job in the very best way possible.

I agree that most movements have multiple applications that vary with the range and intent. I too try to practice my kata with this in mind. Why do we have sequences of three so often in Uechi? So I can explore a movement three different ways with each performance. Example the wauke step offs Is one, I’m thinking slip off line of the force, 2nd one I’m thinking absorb the force and respond, 3rd one I’m thinking shut them down close. Same movement performed slightly different each time. I like your take on kata George just don’t get hung up on it do it and explore!

Think Marcus makes a great point we have been managing to step forward without a crescent step for our entire lives, most of us don’t wobble and fall down when we walk. So maybe seeking applications might shed some light on the step.

Ben: Sorry to miss quote you. I remember when you posted your kata on this thread…its gone now. Seems to me we did not perform the step that much differently. I think we are talking the difference of a few inches on this drawing in thing. I advocate less you advocate more. Cool! It’s all good mate.

I was hopping you would be able to explain why you prefer your methods and explain why. Saying that some dead guy did it that way or that the majority of the world does it that way doesn’t tell me anything.

I understand you are a shodan or will be testing for shodan soon. I thought you might have explored it and questioned it a bit. Do you expect me to believe someone of your ability has just accepted everything as presented and not tinkered tampered and considered in private why the hell they were doing the duck walk as a white belt. Surely after all these years you know why the foot must come in that far, why would you suggest someone change if you don’t know why?.

Dana, great point about the double thrusts, I agree. BTW, I remember the old bring the foot in till it touches exaggeration method. It seems like much in Uechi is taught big and utilized small. From time to time we get to hung up on our drills and forget why we do them or fail to even consider what we are doing. I kind of see the finger tips posted at the elbow as a similar issue, a drill to correct an issue that some how crept into the main stream.

Now my views never seem to mesh will the masses, but that’s okay too because I think the bulk of the martial world practices fluff!

That’s not directed at Uechi or anyone, that’s just what I think, most systems have been diluted over time to make them more acceptable to the public. Lots of snot nosed entry level guys like me passing on their limited skills, and the new students do the same and it just escalates over time. Lots of unskilled sensei’s over time end up teaching drills that they were given to correct a personal fault as part of the system.

As a result I tend to look at what is done with questioning eyes, I like to test and experiment and understand why. I kind of bailed on the bind obedience stuff when I gave up the military.

I think it is great a few have decided to discuss and compare notes, that’s why we have folks posting different kata, so we can discuss the differences and explore the supporting rational for the different methods. It’s called learning, I’m encouraged by this turn of events.


Jim, I think you and I see the world through very similar places!

[Guest]

Good post Rick I agree...especially liked moving around the line of force and hitting at an oblique angle. And everyone thinks I just go straight up the middle

[fivedragons]

Rick, good thoughts on teaching vs. performing vs. DOING KATA. I don't know Uechi Ryu, but one of the forms that I just can't stop doing every day for the last several years is the Uechi sanchin that I learned as a white belt and have probably mangled beyond recognition.

When I think of Kanbun doing kata all alone and in a serious meditative MARTIAL ART state of mind, I think of a blur of animal ferocity and intensity. Or something so slow and controlled that it would be tiring to watch. Or maybe something inbetween.

Nothing that I would be able to fully appreciate, in my ignorance.

Whether fact or fiction, truth or fantasy, this conception of the ideal integrity serves to keep me hungry for discovery, and the "ghost" of this "simple" series of movements serves as the canvas for my living art.

[Mills75]

I don’t agree. Bringing the foot all the way over to the other foot means you must place your centre of gravity directly over that foot. Doing that puts your hip too far outside the stance and you will rise in your stance. Instead the foot sh ...Qoute from Rick Wilson..

When I spoke of the balance deal I meant much like Rick's comments above that if you're rising in your stance and not sunk into sanchin it seems to me it would effect the balance and also if your foot and center of gravity as Rick said is almost directly over the other foot it may cause balance issues i feel..I agree walking daily unless you have a medical condition should not effect balance but we are not fighting then just walking and if kata is a mock fight then we must be balanced and fighting.kata and walking seem very much different.I understand protecting the groin just pointing out IMHO what Rick seems to be saying also about that kind of overkill stepping..

who knows different strokes for different folks and in the end people do it whatever way they play with or whatever way they are taught and some follow and then some blaze new trails and expand all of our horizons..

[Stryke]

If it is for balance it`s a clear case of

three mustard-seed ambush

I am pretty sure the circular stepping is not a trip when employed going backwards

[benzocaine]

Surely after all these years you know why the foot must come in that far, why would you suggest someone change if you don’t know why?.

I always chalked it up to the same reason we practice huge waukes. In a fight we would never do a huge block as it instinctively gets small enough to intercept the blow.

Conversely, if we practice stepping in to the center in our sanchin we'll engrain the good habit of keeping our legs in that (as they call in american Goju) hourglass stance. You're less likely to get kicked in the groin or on the femoral artery by stepping in closer.

The reason I suggested change is that it looked like your student stepped straight out more than a few times without bringing it it to the center first. But he's a white belt and for a white belt that was a very good sanchin. Obviously he practices and has a love and desire for the art.

Hope this helped some.

[Guest]

Thanks Ben that's what were looking for a why.

Now when Kevin considers and experiments with comments received he has a better idea of why he's preforming the step in such a fashion and what he hopes to accomplish by doing so.

BTW I agree he seems a bit less pronounced on one side and appears to step straight. Boy filming is like putting ones performance under a microscope for the world to see.

Takes some courage to post ones kata in cyberspace, hats off to you Kev! I'm sure you got lots of valuable feed back to consider and play with.

[Guest]

Any comments folks for our Kiwi friend, he's been attempting to learn Uechi Sanchin all by himself in New Zealand. Feedback is priceless when the nearest Uechika is thousands of miles away.

http://banffuechiryu.tripod.com/sanchin_18_04_05.wmv

[benzocaine]

I gues I'll be first

I'm glad to see you are still practicing Marcus.

The footwork has to be a bee och for you having spent so many years in shotokan karate do. I'd say to pretend your navel is pointing at the imaginary guy in front of you during your sanchin (I tell all our guys belt knot, but navel is just as good). Point the rear foot forward, and turn the front foot at a 45 degree angle in.

Now allow yourself to sink down. This is all part of getting the "imovable" sanchin.. or rooting. Take your elbows in some so you make a V, and have the tips of your fingers at shoulder height.

Now feel as though you are pulling in towards your hara/just below the navel with your arms and your legs are pulling up to the navel. This should feel strong to you.

Any questions feel free to ask and I'll answer the best I can. Hope this helps, and it's the same advice I'd give anyone else.

PS... Looking a lot stronger. Are you lifting weights?

[Dana Sheets]

Marcus,

I don't recall how long you've been playing with this form but you're definitely more comfortable with it than the last time I saw you and I can see that you've been playing with the rotational elements. I'd caution you against going too far in one direction with the lateral rotation on the double sided strikes.

I like to think more of a corkscrew that ends up back in the center. So on your opening movements and on your doubles be aware that the final position in general is one where you're back to a neutral looking position -- however your body really isn't neutral at all but put on stretch for the following action.

I can also see how you're working on having continuous flow of motion and power throughout the form - however check out your left side/right side differences - it seems one side is better aligned than the other when you strike. Your left side strikes from where it lands while your right side has an extra wiggle to it that seems to have you leaving the ground and rotating your back foot outward...just pay attention to the two sides and see if one is more efficient than the other for you.

just some things to chew on...
Dana

[Guest]

Okay my comments mate:

I’m pleased to see you looking so well, you have been through a trying time but you are far stronger physically than when I last saw you. You are also generating good power in your kata! I’m not going to spend a lot of time giving you a rah rah speech.

You can feel what’s working. I know your tinkering incorporating Shotokan principles and seeing how both systems can come together in this kata. You appear to be trying put rotation together and exploring attacking with the wauke.

I’ve been accused of being a negative guy in the past so I’ll just use that to my advantage and nit pick. It’s only my opinion and it’s free so you know what you’ve paid for it. But hopefully you’ll find something you can explore and come to your own conclusions.

1…On your opening you tend to lean forward on the double arm thrust. I believe this breaks your balance forward and does not assist in your rooting as it moves your torso off of your base. Try remaining erect on the thrust and see if you feel a difference in your rooting. I have the same problem and try to rectify it by thinking forward on the double thrust instead of down, but I follow the same trajectory on the thrust.

2….On your draw backs for the Sanchin arm thrusts I see much improvement you are starting to minimize and internalize that rotation. It’s got to get to big before it gets smaller, listen to your body.

However I believe you still allow your shoulder to come to far back. This can cause some issues for you when fighting on the inside. A shoulder that chambers behind you makes it easy to jam your power. If the shoulder stays square it can not be jammed. Try to keep the shoulder down by tightening your lats on the draw back. This will reduce some of this over rotation of the shoulder. When your shoulder goes too far back it’s actually rising and lifting you off your base.

3….The rotational forces in Uechi are very strong but very small and hidden. I think it’s because it’s a close in fighting system. If you wind up your opponent smothers you before you can fire the power. If you turn sideway to your opponent you have given them control via sabaki. So the rotation had to be hidden to hit with power on the inside.

I think who ever originally came up with Sanchin was one freaky dude and they had lots of folks to pound on to figure this stuff out. In the modern world the UN would have invaded for crimes against humanity.

The way I use rotation in Sanchin is a bit like dynamic tension but it’s fleeting, it’s just a moment and the released, I try to remain fluid. I can’t move when tense.


As the arm draws back for the thrust I fill the other arm with energy, it has a slight expression forward. When the wrist of the thrust reaches my rip cage, I begin to press or rotate the hip on that side of my body forward. I do this by pressing my knee towards the toe of my rear foot.

At the same time I’m filling the front arm with energy I’m pulling the hip on that side back with my knees. So I end up with arms pushing and pulling in two different directions held in check by the lats. The hips driven by the knees work in the opposite direction and appear to be held in check by the abs. When the trust is released the pent up energy flows around the back from the lead hand to the rear hand as it travels to the target. The energy in the hips and knees also releases and drives behind the strike. It feels like it moves in a circle around the spine. (Doesn’t work if you’re leaning forward at the waist btw) While alls these forces are acting there is a pushing with the soles of the feet that I can’t put into words.

Anyway I don’t know if that will help you: but it was good for me, I have a better handle on how my base is moving during the power stroke.

A good way to train it is to just stand close to a partner and put two palms on their chest. Without taking your hands off their chest experiment with it and see it you can knock them across the room with a strike that never leaves their chest. If you can do it you got rotation handled.

Think of it this way rotation generated predominately with the draw back of the arm might be an arm punch .It’s probably generated by the upper body. Rotation that comes from the floor can’t be as it must move through and incorporate the entire body to arrive on target. Just my opinion and something to explore if you are interested.

4…..the double thrusts. Dana pointed this out with Kevin, the return aspect. Time on target is good but it goes both ways out and back. Remember how I rattled the brain with this movement. You must return with power coming back. The elbows must pass through Sanchin on the way back; the shoulders must open as the elbow pas the body. This is the chamber for the thrust you close and compress all that is opened.

5….. The Wauke! Well my friend I can certainly tell were your headed, you’re going to rip someone’s head off and bend their bodies over your knee with that explosive attack! Good on ya!

Some advice, when you turn into the attack see with the palms otherwise you lead with the face.

It’s surprising where I see Shotokan show up in your kata. I see it in the three wauke’s. You do not post the fingers at the elbow pit as per the main stream. You do not lead with a vertical palm as I do. You collapse your 90 degree elbow position and wrap your forearm across your neck and over your shoulder. I guess if you lifted the elbow it would be turning with Dracula’s Cape and the leading of the jousting elbow.

But I do not believe it is Dracula’s cape I believe I’m seeing the chambered arm position I see in shotokan in turns just before the gedan barri (SP).

I’d like to see, and I’m sure Jim would too, some forward issuing energy with a vertical palm on that entry. Fill the space the strike will travel through on that turn and your going to be a lot safer mate. If you don’t walk into a punch that net will have a better chance of capturing some prey. JMHO

Take what works for you! Look forward to your return so we can go hands on.

[Guest]

Well guess I better pony up. If your going to pick at other folks you best post your own.

Rick has accussed me of hidding my errors behind speed.

He is of course correct but I've always done kata at half speed or better and am struggling with the concept of going slow...I will get there as I believe I must do this to listen to my movements.

I also hide my errors be hide behind didge music, I'm shameless!

And in this clip I even try to hide in a crowd, I ...but you cannot hide on film. I'm the fat guy in black on the right.

Other folks in the clip are Kevin on my right 10 months, Ryan behind me, 3 months, and behind Kevin is Jacinthe, it's her 4th class.

Funny but Jacinthe is the only one in the group who does not emulate my truckers back. Dana and Bill have mentioned how students emulate their teachers. I just wish I didn't pass on my bad habits.

I'd be happy if my stuidents were emulating my performance if I moved like Dana or Rick! Unfortuantely I don't.

I'd be really pleased if folks would be willing to give me some feedback. But keep in mind what ever you suggest I'll ask for suporting rational if I don't understand.

Thanks to all who are willing to help.

[JimHawkins]

So in Sanchin the speed should be slow or not full speed? I play with it and I like to fire the thrusts at full speed - full release.

Is this not correct or can you do it slow and/or fast?

I also tend to want to fire the thrust while stepping so that the nukite snaps back and stops at the same time the feet stop moving.

[Rick Wilson]

Kata can be done at any speed depending on what you are working.

I have my students do very slow Kata and slow Kata most but they also have to do “Kata Speed” which is a term that we know the meaning of in my dojo – it means quick and fighting speed.

[Stryke]

PS... Looking a lot stronger. Are you lifting weights?

Always lifting when I can , it`s more diet at the moment though , am just coming of a bulk phase , while I am stronger I wont look much bigger than I was once I cut down .

Great comments Ben , Dana , I`ll be back with questions later ... appreciate it