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PostPosted: Mon May 02, 2005 4:17 pm 
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Location: Richmond, VA --- Louisville, KY
One final post, and then I really have to do some work. It will be a good time for others to present their own points of view.
Randy wrote:
If I was deleted because I support Laird, then so be it. I stand by my opinion and will not back down. I question the fairness and neutral stance of the administrators if they do not allow both sides of a discussion (along with the support) to be viewed by all.

Randy, it's good to see you.

Remember that in the fog of combat, friendly fire happens.

I sincerely hope that - when it is at all possible - these forums remain as opportunities to have "hard" discussions about issues and we all learn something. When it becomes about "sides" or "people" or organizations or geographic areas, then none of us are properly served.

Train hard, Randy, and thanks for coming by.

And finally...

IMHO...

When at all possible, I believe we all need to avoid the temptation to be someone else's designated defender. It's tough not to, I know, particularly when an injustice is perceived.

Let's fight for the right idea instead. I understand reputations are important. But let's put the itchy trigger finger aside and instead have some fun.

- Bill


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PostPosted: Mon May 02, 2005 4:23 pm 
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Yes it was Bill.

My daughter has bought this beautiful five bedroom cottage in Dennis, as rental property investment, and we rushed to get it ready for the season. :)

There is more to life than these forums. At times I wonder what gives us the strenght to continue. :lol:

I don't think George could pay someone to moderate any of this.

At times it feels like you are a prisoner locked behind the keyboard. :(

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Van


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PostPosted: Mon May 02, 2005 4:26 pm 
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You and I have "been there, done that" on quite a few of these in the past. I remember... :wink:

Glad you had such a good weekend away from it all. I managed a similar one myself.

On to lunch! 8)

- Bill


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PostPosted: Mon May 02, 2005 4:34 pm 
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Thanks Van. :D

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I was dreaming of the past...


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon May 02, 2005 4:43 pm 
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quote:

Van writes posts on these forums that in my estimation, insults me and the 95% of our readers who practice what I call "Traditional" martial arts. When I say this, in what I consider to be a non-insulting manner and in a way that simply lets Van know how "we" feel, I get rewarded with all kinds of posts saying that I'm "paranoid", wear panties that get in a knot, "thin skinned", and on and on.

To me, this is a double standard.



Quote:
Which to me simply states that some of Van's post seem to target TMA in a negative manner. I stated an opinion. . . something we have all done!


As long as we are stating opinions _ then I find these observations ridiculous, and that’s my opinion. :wink:

Jim Hawkins has put it much better than any of us could. Thank you Jim. :)

First I have never seen any evidence of such 95% ‘insults’ _ If people had felt insulted, they would not have allowed this forum to grow into such a popular and heavily read medium. All I recall ever reading were accolades.

The huge success of this forum, and the immense traffic that it generates for your site and activities, speaks for itself.

Secondly, my ‘tongue in cheek’ expressions and sometimes ‘goading’ are put forth to evoke a response not to insult, and you know this.

It has been my ‘signature’ since day one, as it has been my position that a blend of tradition and modern combative studies is the wiser choice. And you know this also.

It is unfortunate that you insist in taking everything I write, very personal. :(

Third_ I recall you accusing many of us of paranoia, not the other way around, in relation to discussions of a defensive component. And we tried to point out the definitions of paranoia to you. :)

But this is really getting tiring, so lets put this foolishness to bed and move on with the exciting days ahead.

Perhaps you can start a thread on what interesting activities are in store for us at Summer camp this year. :wink:

_________________
Van


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon May 02, 2005 7:09 pm 
Quote:
Laird's post was a violation of forum policy. It may be my forum, but I am here at the pleasure of GEM and must abide by his rules. I have a copy of the post, Rick, and could PM it to you. The PM format preserves all the formatting, the jpeg files, etc., etc.


Bill I don’t believe I violated any rules or policies. I have saved the post as well. Shall we repost it and you can use it to prove your claim? I did not do anything wrong!!!! You’re making the claim but the readers can’t see for themselves because you have removed the post.

I’d suggest you either post the evidence or remove the claim.

Is it’s against forum rules to point out moderators violating the rules. Gem has pointed out that he feels Van sometimes breaks these rules, and has acknowledged that you may at times do so as well, something about the shear volume of posts or something. For the moment lets not explore weather this is true or not.

Let us talk about the double standard. Laird gets banned for something GEM claims Van and Bill engage in.

If I got banned for suggesting that a moderator was breaking the rules…should George not ban himself for suggesting you and Van break the rules? Whoops another rubber standard.

Or is their some unwritten rule I’m unaware of. Are you moderator types above the rules? Is it okay for moderators to engage in certain activities but not forum members? Is there some sort of social hierarchy involved, where some members have more privilege than others? I feel like some sort of second class citizen these days.

I’m confused as to why I got banned, someone please explain it to me, and be prepared to prove your points.


Quote:
It is my job as a forum moderator to enforce the rules. George has posted these rules, and they aren't a mystery to any of the parties here.
Glad to hear it Bill! Why don’t you do something about the SUV thread? I’ve had enough of Ian’s garbage and grow weary of you looking the other way.


Quote:
Almost not worth replying to, but I can't resist.


Quote:
Second, it's preposterous that all you meant was that you wanted prison to be a deterrent. People who want that say things like this: "I hope being deprived of his freedom and hopefully being asked to work off his debt to society in jail is hard enough that he thinks twice about such a crime in the future." They don't write graphically about rape.


Quote:
Third, rejoicing that someone might get gang raped (and who knows, later die a miserable death later) is not "acknowledging" prison rape. That sounds like this: "prisoners have a real chance of getting raped in jail." That's even an indifferent statement, of course. Most people wouldn't make light of the problem or would denounce it.


Quote:
Rejoice in our prison failings. Condemn them. Go back >100 years. Then, pretend you are above the fray after endorsing them. Oh well, whatever, nevermind.




I find this character assassination disturbing Bill. Ian claims to read my mind and know my intent better than I. He calls me a liar. He paints me with a wide brush claiming I advocate and promote prison rape. I don’t recall dancing in the street because people were getting raped and I don’t recall celebrating the failure of prison systems.

You appear to be looking the other way Bill.

I guess maybe the rules have more to do with who is getting insulted huh?

Well I have rules too Bill, and Ian just broke one of them. I’m not sure if the fancy smancy debating tactics the UVA are wise to use with us uneducated folks, we just don’t cotton to insult. Shucks some of us really stupid types even think we get to lay a lickin on folks when they cross the line.

Guess I’ll have to moderate the situation myself.


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 Post subject: Laird
PostPosted: Mon May 02, 2005 7:18 pm 
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Joined: Wed Sep 16, 1998 6:01 am
Posts: 5999
Location: Mount Dora, Florida
Since we now have an official VSD moderator and site arbitrator, I request that you let him review all the posts in question and he can tell us what action should be taken.

I will take whatever action he says is appropriate, even if it means banning Bill and myself.

_________________
GEM
"Do or do not. there is no try!"


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon May 02, 2005 7:26 pm 
:lol:


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon May 02, 2005 7:35 pm 
Laird,
I've just come back from Cambridge, the University city famous the world over.and I was entertained at the "dreaming spires" by my wife's cousin who has a first class honours degree in chemical engineering a tremedous job, he has literally travelled the world, a BMW that most guys would masterbate about..a beautiful chinese wife and a 3 year old son..unfortunately he is dying of brain cancer........A forum is a forum..................is a forum....we are Cyber warriors, some of us may be able to walk our talk, some of us can't....I've been dissed by better folks than the ones here .and in real life :roll: ......Yeah Ian has gotten into trouble a few times on these forums ( I personnaly like his viewpoint, and like yourself he can be outspoken at times) you don't have to point this out to anyone.live with it ..it's cybersapce :lol: :lol:


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon May 02, 2005 7:38 pm 
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Posts: 203
Van Canna wrote:
quote:

Van writes posts on these forums that in my estimation, insults me and the 95% of our readers who practice what I call "Traditional" martial arts. When I say this, in what I consider to be a non-insulting manner and in a way that simply lets Van know how "we" feel, I get rewarded with all kinds of posts saying that I'm "paranoid", wear panties that get in a knot, "thin skinned", and on and on.

To me, this is a double standard.


Quote:
Which to me simply states that some of Van's post seem to target TMA in a negative manner. I stated an opinion. . . something we have all done!


As long as we are stating opinions _ then I find these observations ridiculous, and that’s my opinion. :wink:

Jim Hawkins has put it much better than any of us could. Thank you Jim. :)

First I have never seen any evidence of such 95% ‘insults’ _ If people had felt insulted, they would not have allowed this forum to grow into such a popular and heavily read medium. All I recall ever reading were accolades.



Van, suppose we assume that the 95% isn't quite right, but that there is some nonzero percentage of TMA's that visit this forum that agree with George, say the TMA%. After all, it is George's forum and it makes sense that if George says he is communicating the feelings of the TMA%, then I believe him and think we should at least consider his point of view (even if in the end we don't agree) and not dismiss it out of hand as "ridiculous." Shouldn't we at least try?

I am sure George feels that no matter how small the TMA% is that he wants to make his forum a place where they feel comfortable, especially, if this is a forum for communicatiing, teaching, and learning a wide variety of MA ideas.

John


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon May 02, 2005 8:02 pm 
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uglyelk wrote:
Quote:
Laird's post was a violation of forum policy. It may be my forum, but I am here at the pleasure of GEM and must abide by his rules. I have a copy of the post, Rick, and could PM it to you. The PM format preserves all the formatting, the jpeg files, etc., etc.


Bill I don’t believe I violated any rules or policies. I have saved the post as well. Shall we repost it and you can use it to prove your claim? I did not do anything wrong!!!! You’re making the claim but the readers can’t see for themselves because you have removed the post.

I’d suggest you either post the evidence or remove the claim.


Quote:
Guess I’ll have to moderate the situation myself.


Laird, I am sure you have at some point competed in a karate tournament in which you did kata and/or sparring. Sometimes it happens in these tournaments that we just don't agree with the judges, but there is really nothing we can do about it, because it was a "judgement call." If we really can't take the bad judging then we just don't compete or we decide that in spite of the past bad judging we still want to go on because we enjoy the events so much. Please, accept the calls of the forum judges and move on. There is nothing left to win here--the tournament is over. :D

Also, since you are a guest here, I personally would appreciate it if you would try to post in a less confrontational manner. I think more productive communication will occur if everyone tries to thoughtfully and more calmly discuss the issues.

Thanks,
John


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon May 02, 2005 8:08 pm 
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Location: Richmond, VA --- Louisville, KY
The flood gates open...

Good.

I spent my time in this thread explaining my actions of the High Road thread. I believe it still exists in its entirety minus the one deleted post (which I would still delete). Deleting a post on that thread then led to what is still left of the Strawman thread.

Here is the SUV thread that Laird speaks of. 8 years for SUV arson. If I am not mistaken, I believe what got Ian going was the following.
Laird wrote:
I hope mister flame experiences gettng raped and a line up of men filling his mouth with unwanted body parts. Maybe then he can reflect about how wrong it is to impose your will or values on others.

This kind of post has caused some interesting reactions in the past. In my estimation, at least 3 people go over the top in that thread. I let it go, hoping that the debate would enlighten. You all can read the thread in its entirety. No posts have been deleted (yet).

The Gordian knot continues to unravel. Keep it coming.

- Bill


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon May 02, 2005 8:09 pm 
John,
so you are the moderator here...let me say, that you are an excellent choice :D :D ......you have equanimity ( i'm afraid I don't :oops: :oops: )


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon May 02, 2005 8:56 pm 
Interest anology John. :lol: I'm not much of a competetive fighter these days. I tend to just keep fighting until someone stops me, or until my opponent stops moving.

So I quess we will have to pretend I got ko'd and move on, seeing no one is willing to point out the faux pas I've made, I'm doomed to repeat it again.

Not much sense having a vsd forum if we are not willing to explore these issues. JMO.

I'll take you advice and move on John, but I've got to tell you I don't fell like I got KO'd, I feel like I got sucker punched and that *****.

I expect it will happen again. But hey my participation is my own choice. If I don't like the rules of the game I'm always free to opt out.

I suspect I'll get banned again for treating folks the way they treat folks.

Good luck with your new forum John , I hear it's a thankless task.

Laird


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon May 02, 2005 9:00 pm 
Bill, thanks for the friendly fire comment. :D

Quote:
Sometimes it happens in these tournaments that we just don't agree with the judges, but there is really nothing we can do about it, because it was a "judgement call." If we really can't take the bad judging then we just don't compete or we decide that in spite of the past bad judging we still want to go on because we enjoy the events so much.


John, I disagree with this analogy as sparring and verbal communication are completely different in judgement requirements.

When we enter a competition, the judgement has to be quick and decisive for the continuity of the match as well as the respect for the skills of the participants and their skills. Yes, sometimes a bad call is made but those are the rules in a fast paced environment where you cannot take back your action. You cannot reflect on the move you just did to lose the point and take it back afterwards to your advantage.

In a verbal match, folks have the opportunity to think about what they have posted, and they also have the ability to retract their statements or edit their posts. At any time if a mistake is made, the poster has the ability to make it right by all, or at least recognize their actions and explain them in further detail before judgement is past.

IMO, Laird does not have to let this go as there is accountability on several fronts and Laird is the only one being asked to back down.

Again, IMO, his point on being attacked regarding rape is very valid and why would those folks not be held accountable?

Laird speaks from the heart (as do others) but appears to be the only one that is ever asked to back down. Why is that?


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