early Karate myth source

[MikeK]

And also the link. Fred accept my apology and join us other guys who never watched MC act. [Closest I could get to a emoticon wearing a hat, sunglasses and a raincoat.]

[f.Channell]

F.

[RACastanet]

"Are those grappling videos?"



Definitely!

Rich

[2Green]

"The throat is pretty easy to protect too--the sternal notch is always going to be vulnerable but actually crushing a windpipe is a major task."
*****************************************************

Clamp your chin down to your chest, hard.
Now, take either hand and make a Nukite (flat finger-tip strike).
Place your palm on your upper chest and see how easy it is to slide this weapon into the throat from this angle, because even with your chin all the way down to the chest, there is an opening between the jaw hinge and the throat.

Now think about placing your hand on an attacker's chest, or they on yours.
Then think about the Nukite driven forcefully, not with arm power, but the convulsion of the entire body driving it.

I wouldn't gamble MY windpipe to this "major task".

Just human anatomy, exploited.

NM

[Topos]

"Did the Ivory Snow girl star in it? ".

Mike, is this the genesis of "Chambering" postion that was insisted upon in kata movements where in the Big 3 was 'hidden' the sucker punch [GRIN].

The correct answer gets the DOOR prize and a GREEN belt.

With the final realization of 'dump the punch' in favor of the 'iron' palm ( made sense from day one to some), Van's prescient observations over the years will stand in testemony to using one's intellect as well as brawn.


Great day to all.

[MikeK]

So for those just joining us, this thread is about bad karate movies, one strike kills and vintage "adult" thespians.

[Bill Glasheen]

I believe in this side thread that 2Green is talking about the suprasternal notch. It is a vulnerable spot all have, that triggers the gag reflex.

But this is a setup technique, and not a one-shot-kill. It works... I'll never forget Bruce Siddle shoving his thumb in my SSN circa 1986 in a Mattson Uechi camp. That's one of many places on my body that got poked and prodded with his own patented PPCT-style boshiken.

For iron shirt training lessons on how to desensitize this reflex, contact The Ivory Snow Girl. Or was that the specialty of another grappling artist?

- Bill

[IJ]

First, minor clarification--are people really experiencing gagging with their trachea poked, or are they coughing and choking? I think of gagging as a gastrointestinal, tongue depressor too far back kind of thing, and choking the result of something down the windpipe or compression of your trachea.

I agree that you can poke people in the throat whether or not they tuck their chin; this is difficult, when the person with the tucked chin is charging at you and or tackling you, or punching you, or poking YOUR throat. Crushing a throat would be real tough even if they weren't moving; the trachea is loosely attached and slides around in the neck, and while vigoroous cooughing ensures if i press on mine, it and the skin over it provide enough slide to make a crush very hard.

All of this makes a powerful strike here hard to deliver, and the adrenaline dump makes it less likely to be distracting, and the adrenaline and brief nature of most fights make it possible to fight even if you did collapse their windpipe.

Again, I'm not saying I want my windpipe smashed, I'm just saying that relying on being able to land a "killer shot" is an error.

[Bill Glasheen]

are people really experiencing gagging with their trachea poked, or are they coughing and choking?

Several sources I know (medical = Bruce Miller, LEO = Bruce Siddle) identify external stimulation of the suprasternal notch as triggering the gag reflex. It is more sensitive to dL/dt than it is to delta L.

I'll be happy to show you next time we meet. It's relatively harmless, but effective at getting someone's attention. And no matter how muscular you are, you can still get at it.

- Bill

[Bill Glasheen]

Okay, the reflex we are going to use is the gag reflex. Now many people know about this reflex so the knowledge of its existence is definitely not earth shattering or some kind of secret. However, with a bit of knowledge here we can make this point a lot more effective for you AND teach you some principles that apply to many other points.

Okay, the gag reflex point is located on the middle of the lower, anterior neck, just above the sternal notch.

Now some people will be hesitant thinking that this area is weak and that you are going to damage the throat by pushing here, but let me assure you that while pressing here will feel uncomfortable, you are not going to damage the neck at this location. That is because underneath the point are rings of thick cartilage.

In order for this to work, though, you HAVE to press quickly. If you press slowly, then the person can resist because the gag reflex, which is part of the breathing system, is only stimulated externally by sudden changes in stimulation (See Advanced Pressure Points: The System of Pressure Points for more on the 5 different systems – available in FightingArts.com’s E-store) I suggest that you press with one supported finger in the middle of the neck at this location.

If you have done this correctly you will see the person back up quickly. How far he backs up is in direct proportion to how hard and how fast you push. It is possible to have him launch himself into the wall behind him with all his muscles.

Read more at Types Of Points By Bruce Everett Miller, PA-C

- Bill

[nosib]

Topos.....that would be "Behind The Green Door" starring Miss M.Chambers. I liked your Jepardy clue.

[MikeK]

The SSN is a great place. The ones that I've been working on are different and drive the head up. I'll show it to you next week Bill, maybe you can tell me exactly how it works.

Ian, I don't think anybody is claiming a one shot instantaneous kill by hitting the neck straight on. But I also don't think the average street thug having his breathing cut off will be fighting hard for too long chemical dump or not.

[IJ]

Bill, I see the same language in the text you provide but that doesn't really answer my question... I've done this to myself and others and the experience I've noted is discomfort and coughing--NOT gagging as if something were stuck down your throat or you were trying to eat spiders on fear factor. A matter of semantics, we all know it works.

Mike, I AM an enthusiast of using this point and see it come directly out of our kata, namely with a leg-power-driven, fingertip-delivered attack first seen in kanshu, right before the last turn. I did a demo push on a student back at UVA that I warned, just on the chest, and accidentally knocked him to teh floor ten feet back. I simply caution that you can't assume you can automatically cut off the average street thug's breathing. Some of them are very frisky and determined.

[Stryke]

Originally posted by Ian
are people really experiencing gagging with their trachea poked, or are they coughing and choking?

The most effective way in my experence is In and Down It creates a lot more pain , and a lot more discomfort , otherwise it doesnt really bother me to much on its own .

I simply caution that you can't assume you can automatically cut off the average street thug's breathing. Some of them are very frisky and determined.

Does frisky mean the same thing In the Us as NZ

agree though , not something to rely on

[Bill Glasheen]

Uh... Yea, words have different meanings in different places and contexts.

Know what you mean, dude.

Reflexes can seem different, Ian, when triggered in a nonphysiologic fashion. It's one thing to gag because you have something down the throat that is the wrong size or in the wrong place. It's something entirely different to trigger the reflex without there being anything to eject. It will feel different.

And the gag reflex has nothing to do with stopping breathing. On the contrary, it is all about maintaining the airway. This is just a "trick" designed to take the starch out of someone for a second. There should be a follow-up; otherwise you have wasted your effort.

- Bill