training variations

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Rick Wilson

Post by Rick Wilson »

Interesting to see someone else’s take on the same postings. :lol:

On these forums I see people who question EFFECTIVENESS and they challenge this effectiveness through their training experiences.

Neil sees: “Somehow I am increasingly sensing a sort of "if it feels good, do it" type of training methodology among posters.”

I have yet to read or even feel it has been implied “if it feels good, do it.”

There IS a sense of body knowledge that comes with deeper training and the complete lack of body mechanics will never become a deep training no matter how long you do it. This may be interpreted incorrectly in that manner (my take of course.)

Striking is a great example of something you can test with conditioned people. If you hit in one manner and it is far more effective then why would you hit different? Unless you find some application flaw.

I use striking as an example because the original way I was taught to hit in Uechi is drastically less effective than what I do now. For a striking art this struck me as rather important.

In addition the posters who question often back that up with either current experts or old writings of the masters or try to explain what they have experienced.

Interesting the different takes. :wink:

For example, the seeking of effectiveness I see in the postings is also interpreted by Neil as: “impatience with the study of the techniques in favour of what seems to be "faster" results.”

Perhaps there is impatience out there I have only seen it in a couple of white belts.

I see the challenging of rather new drills and the principles they teach that some believe fly in the face of both modern and ancient combative masters. (Others disagree.)

I believe if a person puts the time on the floor and take the time to explore body mechanics and read on combative strategy then, if there are questions about their training, they will come to them, but they have to have an inquiring mind. 8)

I would be hard pressed to put a time limit because every person is different. Some see things sooner than others.

All in the eye of the beholder I guess. :wink:
Stryke

Post by Stryke »

Someone, somewhere stated that Uechi study is not broad but deep.
Somehow I am increasingly sensing a sort of "if it feels good, do it" type of training methodology among posters.
I am wondering how long a person has to train before they can truly say they have tried the established teaching and found it to be unfit for them.
I'll come back to this point.
Excellent question
thats been broken up and killed
Ok Everyone knows I`m a little controversial , I should explain

The majority of karate out there is Punch , block , kick .....

Not karate IMHO , educated brawling maybe , wheres the locks , throws , chokes , pressure points , wheres the entrys ? , wheres the strategy ? .

where is the functional spontinaiety (McCarthy`isim ) that training is supposed to develop .




I am wondering how long a person has to train before they can truly say they have tried the established teaching and found it to be unfit for them.
I`m wondering how long some people will wait for the answers on a plate .... at what point does trust become stupidity , there are people out there that have trained for 20-30-40 years that dont have a clue about what there doing . Ive met some of them , a smaller few have even admitted it . Some of them have Ranks that would amaze you . Some arts are almost dead because it goes all the way to the top . The only hope for them is researchers and innovators .

The scary thing is the ones that admit it are usually the most knowledgeable . Some still think it`s block , kick , punch ....
Someone, somewhere stated that Uechi study is not broad but deep.
I think Uechi is very Broad and deep , I think it`s an incredible system , when I mean I find styles dead , I mean I find the styles restricted to small amounts of analysis . Most teach the same kick , block , punch combinations , a few applications and thats it , where in fact it and endless resource of ideas and information .
Have you ever come to a similar crossroads where you felt you had assimilated a concept, found it truly unworthy and eliminated it from your teaching?
Once again, I am NOT soliciting personal advice.
I personally put stuff like this on the shelf , and wait till i`m ready to use it or leave it there . If you truly cant use it It is not a concept . Mechanics , concepts and principles are irrefutable , if it doesnt work and/or make sense it`s just another technique , one that `smissing a principle/mechanical advantage etc for it to work . So on the shelf until I have better grasp of it`s actuall application .

Heck I`ve heard Uechika that say Sanchin isnt a fighting kata :shocked!:



They have something like 28 empty handed forms
Heck I understand that mess , I can do over 30 forms , but Ive cut back to a few ... this is my point though , it`s a collection of forms techniques , and no real depth and exploration .

Heck I think Uechi was perhaps once a fairly complete style , I think that of all matial arts . The fact is they no longer really are .


All this is all just my opinion though , and I`m not referring to anyone on the forums as I havent trained with you all unfortunately
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Dana Sheets
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Post by Dana Sheets »

Neil,

Thanks for writing.

Personally I can understand training variation because I am one. In fact in coming up the ranks for a time there I had no idea what "traditional" Uechi-ryu looked like. In my lineage my teacher's teacher's teacher did not seek to walk in the footsteps of those before him, he sought what they sought.

So what does that mean?

It means for many many people understanding that the circle movement in Uechi isn't some sort of Akido moment of altruistic response to aggression. It can be that - but it is also a devastating weapon.

It means for others that the move, stop, move stop pattern of kata is not what you're expected to do when fighting.

It means learning your own body so you can make power. If you simply imitate your teachers you will develop a certain level of skill but it will be limited by your own efforts to imitate. So you must at some point stop imitating and start owning. [Rick - I am in no way implying that this is what you did - I'm simply using this as an example from my own experience.]

I fully expect folks to imitate for their first few years of training. How else will you learn the patterns, the template for the posture? This is the time for the first level of mastery of the basic body mechanics, body positioning skills, and a time for forge the body and the mind and the spirit. The training up to this point is generally known as "kyu rank" training.

Once those skills have been demonstrated it is time to give the student enough rope to hang themselves with. They now begin the next journey of discovering how they will apply the basic prinicples they've mastered to more sophisticated concepts. During this time they should deeply invest in failure and to do so they must be able to put their ego aside. It is the teacher's role during this time to mentor the procress. If the teacher grips too tightly to the student they will, just like any adolescent, pull away and possibly leave. This is generally the time from shodan to yondan. Some people already walk in the dojo with the physical and mental awareness needed and the competency in fighting skills needed to skip almost directly to this phase. And sometimes those kinds of people leave right away because they're being asked to train below their abilities. Though I have to say I've yet to have someone walk in the door without some kind of previous martial training who is instantly able to marshall their body's reasources to find iron shirt. Doesn't mean it won't happen some day - I've just not seen it yet in my own experience.

And somewhere in this process you start helping others understand what you know. And this either becomes something you want to do in a big way, or it continues to be just something you do as a matter of course in your trianing.

What seems to be a point of debate is "when does fighting strategy enter the picture?" Because based on fighting strategy people will or won't apply certain principles by using certain technqiues at certain times.

Fighting strategy can be taught implicitly by just fighting. Do it enough and you will get better at it.

However it seems like folks work and work and work to come up with ways to teach fighting without doing a full-on brawl.

And I'll sum this all up with a very specific example. At GEM's summer camp one year I saw a small female student (must have under 5' tall) doing kanshiwa bunkai with a male student over 6' tall. And during the overhead attack do you know what she tried to do? So him by jamming his shoulder which she could barely reach. Now to me that's an example of someone who is doing with no understanding. And it wouldn't surprise me if she eventaully tossed out that technique as useless because of the way she was being asked to train it. And if she's asked to train that principle that way just think of all the other ways she's not being well.

bah..too long of a post anyway...I'll read this later and see if it makes sense. Gotta go to work.
Dana
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Dana Sheets
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Post by Dana Sheets »

And Neil the formality is nice - please call me Dana. And if you're ever in the DC area I hope you'll drop me a line and visit. It would be a pleasure to train with someone with your level of dedication and focus.
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