Fuzhou Suparinpei

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jorvik

Post by jorvik »

bill
I was thinking today about the CS knockout. that strike seems to be in a lot of styles and Katas, and has been called variously the Judo chop,the karate chop etc.
That would seem to infer that a lot of people thought it was a pretty effective technique, and that would also infer that the way folks came to this decision was from actually using it :) ......so I may be wrong but I would think that a lot of this "nerve strike" stuff was known and used long before folks had any science to it.
It would be nice if every one could agreee the common ground, have a body of knowledge that nobody disputed......and then grey areas .like no touch knockdowns, where I believe that a lot of it is "influence".....and then again it would be nice to know just what the "influence" was :lol:
Where did all this stuff come from anyway? :? :? ...I remember reading about an Okinawan called "Oyata" or something similar doing Okinawan Kempo and using these methods.....then it was George dillman, and since then a few others.are there oriental methods?......Atemi anyone :lol: ?
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Bill Glasheen
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Post by Bill Glasheen »

Jorvik

Evan would be the guy to fill you in on some of the lineages (Oyata to Dillman to Pantazi, etc.) But there are many. And as you know, not all martial folks get along! Enough said... :wink:

We've got a problem here, jorvik, because much of this body of knowledge is based on experience without rigorous experimentation, and first principles medicine whose premises are faulty. The only thing we can reliably say in some cases is "Hit here like this and the lights go out."

There are stories in the oral history of martial arts about men poking at their slaves and prisoners looking for these points. Such rigorous experimentation today only could happen in Auchewitz or a WWII Japanese prison camp. (A little-known secret of WWII is that we absolved the Japanese of their war crimes in exchange for the information they gleaned from their careful experimentation. Clearly this is a serious breach of ethics.)

The only way reliably to separate psychological from physical influence IMO is to do the type of experimentation that with today's ethics in science would raise eyebrows. I'm not saying it couldn't or would never be done, but it would likely happen as part of military or LEO as opposed to civilian research, and probably with military "volunteers." And it isn't going to happen with one or even a few experiments. Someone would have to devote a lifetime of research to the field.

Consider also that I don't entirely discount the psychological effects. You may or may not be aware that "psyops" is an important tool of the military these days. The interaction of physical and psychological factors is a fascinating area.

There are also other issues. Pain-based kyusho points are unreliable under stress where hormonal influences can mitigate the response. Some of the most reliable of kyusho points are the "reflex points" that use the body's own functional systems against itself. But these generally are more about breaking someone's center to set up a killing blow as opposed to delivering a light-force KO technique.

And... It gets really interesting when you mix the various points. That's when the cool stuff happens that Evan likes to demonstrate. But greater complexity - as you know - can translate to impracticality at the moment of truth when abilities and targeting are compromised.

It's a fascinating field with no end to it. We're crazy not to target in some way, but the demonstration stuff can carry it all to impractical extremes. Only good knowledge, lots of experience, superb execution, and a little TNT insurance behind the technique translate to reliable outcomes.

- Bill
jorvik

Post by jorvik »

Quote
"The only thing we can reliably say in some cases is "Hit here like this and the lights go out."
Well I think that is what most folks want, or at least as a basis..look at boxers they do some targeting, but they aren't karateka...and I guess to be good karateka you need to have stuff that doesn't translate as second rate boxing.
I rate boxing very highly, but mainly because it frightens me, I know what damage a second rate, amateur boxer can do..and it's often a lot more than some 10th dans :roll: ..so I like this area, but like yourself I'm sceptical. It would be nice if you and evan could both put down the areas that you agree on....although I tend to agree that there is no perfect answer, I love "Defendo"
http://www.defendo.com/
and we have talked about this guy before...the strength of his system is that it is based upon pain...that is also it's weakness, in some circumstances pain does not stop people, but generally it does :lol: .that's how I look at kyushu
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JimHawkins
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Post by JimHawkins »

Bill Glasheen wrote: The only thing we can reliably say in some cases is "Hit here like this and the lights go out."
What is the medical explanation for this? Is there one?
Shaolin
M Y V T K F
"Receive what comes, stay with what goes, upon loss of contact attack the line" – The Kuen Kuit
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Bill Glasheen
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Post by Bill Glasheen »

Jim wrote: What is the medical explanation for this? Is there one?
There are several different mechanisms for loss of consciousness, Jim. The two major classes that I can think of off the top of my head are vascular (reduction of blood flow to brain) and electrical in nature. The former happens when doing "blood chokes" and when stimulating a dramatic parasympathetic response (a.k.a. vasovagal). The latter can happen by one of a number of mechanisms. Some are rather sophisticated (clash of electrical inputs to "mission control" in the brain) and some are rather gross (bashing the brain around in the skull, or physical trauma to the brain stem).

And as I stated before, there can be psychological and even hormonal factors involved.

When we get one of those odd situations caused by hits to the neck and head, it can be a mixture of mechanisms working together.

One thing we need to remember though is KOs aren't the only goal of targeted, sequential striking. Professionals and RBSD experts like Bruce Siddle (at PPCT.com) make a living teaching LEOs how to employ targeted striking as a tool in apprehending and controling perps. (See PPCT Pressure Point Control Instructor School). Bruce keeps it simple, and KISS works pretty well under stress.

My recommendation for understanding how the range of techniques work from a medical perspective is to check out some articles by Bruce Miller on Fightingarts.com.

Pressure Points 1: Going to the Heart Of Pressure Points - What They Really Are

Pressure Points 2: Some Observations On Their Use

Pressure Points 3: Types Of Points

There are many decent books on it, but these references are free and get you started.

- Bill
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Post by Bill Glasheen »

Mike D wrote: I also thought there is an intermediate form taught in Goju or one of the other Okinawan systems whose name translates to a number somewhere between 36 and 108 (54?).

Am I way off base here or has anyone else heard of this form?
Mike, I believe I found the answer to your question.

- Bill
Numerology and Kyushojutsu

If things weren't confusing enough, another aspect of the study of kata and its relation to kyushojutsu is the seeming fascination with numerology. Many tradtional kata (as Gojushiho meaning 54 steps,Nijushiho or 24 steps,Seipai or 18 hands and Senseryu or 36 hands) are named after numbers.

While many seem to think this might be a Chinese phenomenon, it may have actually been imported from India (Zarrilli, 1992). While they are not the only numbers associated with the fighting traditions, some of the more prominent ones are 18, 36, 54, 72, and 108. These numbers can be seen in Indian, Chinese, and Japanese martial arts literature (Jin, 1928; Zarrilli, 1992; McCarthy, 1995; Sato, 1996) and within the names of kata.

One of the most common explanation of the use of these numbers is that there are 108 effective vital points on the human body (used in the martial arts), 36 of which are fatal (Jin, 1928). Another school of thought is that there are 36 vital points, and 72 variations in attacking methodology, making a total of 108 (McCarthy, 1995). Yet another theory lists 36 fatal vital points and 18 non-fatal points (Sato, 1996).

While the exact mechanism of the numerological aspects of the fighting traditions may be lost to antiquity, we are left with several reminders of this ancient heritage in the form of kata names and the number of effective vital points.
- Kyushojutsu: Basic Theory
By Joe Swift (Mushinkan Dojo, Kanazawa, Japan)
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Post by Seanchin »

Bill Glasheen wrote:
Running through it with me helps fill in the details that you can't quite get by watching a video.

- Bill
Oh that would great! I agree that there is only so much you can learn from a video. It's such a pain too; I have to watch the video 384938473984 (and then some) times and I could still be lost with certain movements. I could perform it the same amount of times and still be just as lost only because there is no one to aid me when I am stuck. I find this to be a very fun form, I can get through it - I'd just like to do it correctly or the closest to correct can be.

I do enjoy this form very much. Even though it is not one of our katas of Uechi Ryu, I still feel it opens the mind to new things. The part I enjoy the most is that majority of these new things/moves, are moves I already know just performed in various and different ways. I look forward to your class then at the camp.
-Sean
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Post by Bill Glasheen »

Sean wrote: The part I enjoy the most is that majority of these new things/moves, are moves I already know just performed in various and different ways.
Bingo!

It takes the lessons of The Big ThreeTM one step farther. Furthermore, it exudes the message of flow that many RBSD instructors are so high on. Don't stop hitting until they stop wiggling. Fuzhou Suparinpei is a lesson in the mechanics of how to do that without burning out before the 3-minute-long form is done.

- Bill
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Glenn
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Post by Glenn »

Bill,

Sent you a PM. Thanks!
Glenn
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108 Cosmic Connection

Post by Guest »

I came across a slightly different take on the Buddist Numerology for Superinpai that we've been discussing. It's in barefoot zen: the Shaolin roots of Kung fu and Karate by Nathan J. Johnson, a British student of Buddhism. Johnson is a Godan in Shorin-ryu karate and holds a 4th degree black sash in Kung Fu.

His translation of "Superinpai" is "one hundred-and-eight hands. The 108 is a cosmological number with reductions of 3, 6, 18, 36 and 54. The number 108 relates to the number of beads on a Buddhist rosary and links to the breath rates used in meditation.

Number 108 and its reductions are sacred numbers which connect one "firmly to the way."

According to Johnson, the classic yogic breath rate in a trance is 7.5 breaths per minute which works out to 10,800 breaths per day, a multiple, obviously of 108.

Johnson claims that the normal breath volume for adults is about 500 ml of air per breath but in meditation the volume is increased to 1200 ml per breath or more. He claims that the increase in volume results in an improvement in the oxygenation of the brain. He claims this is a result one experiences in Sanchin. :!: I don't see what he means here as a 7.5 breaths in our Uechi sanchin seems too low to me.

Anyhow, this increased level of concentration results in an altered consciousness which puts one in harmony with natural forces. One of theses forces is that there is a 1:4 ratio between breath rate and pulses ... 18 breaths for every 72 pulses. Supposedly, the earth rotates one degree every four minutes. So that if we view minutes as pulses {and this is the leap I don't get} we are connected by our breath rate in Sanchin to the rotation of the earth.

I'm lost, frankly, at this point. :?: However, Johnson goes on to claim "that harmonizing with the Tao is potentially a physical actuality and not merely a mystical or poetical metaphor."

I like the poetry of this but does anyone get the math?
jorvik

Post by jorvik »

Yeah this guy has been on these forums before.and I'm not dissing him 8)
there used to be a whole load of vids on the internet about his style.............which he basically made up himself :lol: #
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/si ... 34-4444763

could have been big....but wasn't :oops: .........anyways good stuff read and enjoy :wink: .........and with a pinch of salt :D
miked
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Gojushiho

Post by miked »

Bill,

Thanks for doing the homework on Gojushiho.

Do you remember the form?

Does the form have very similar Uechi-like movements?

Could you dig out or find a clip?

Mike
jorvik

Post by jorvik »

John
Nathan Johnson was originally with this group
http://home.clara.net/buddhistwingchun/research.htm
I have spoken to this guy a while back, re doing zenshorindo
http://www.martinclewett.com/birmingham_non_flash.htm

but I think that Inertnationally at least they never got of the ground...i think that it could blend very well with Uechi although the katas they use are two from Goju and one from Shotokan. 8)
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Post by Bill Glasheen »

Mike

I cannot do the Gojushiho form, and don't think it was one of the Goju classical forms. Maybe we can research it a bit more.

- Bill
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Fouzhou Suparinpei (one more time around and around)

Post by Guest »

:arrow: First, I'm very impressed with the tape. I like the quality of the production and exection of the kata. I like the clear format: Three times through, front, back and sides in the demo portion in a gymnasium. Then the shift to the teaching portion outside with two very able and capable advanced students. The entire kata is gone through one more time and the techniques named and explained as well as shown. Then, the finale, Bill's normal speed presentation. The full speed version really looks to me like Uechi Ryu.

It took a few viewings for me to see the relationships to the current Uechi canon but the kata grows on you as you start feeling yourself doing it. I also did some research on the Kata in the forum and found out much more about the Uechi techniqus and pattern clusters shown in Bill's Suparinpei. There's a good deal of elaboration of some basic Uechi moves that aren't readily apparent on first view.

The thread reseach helped significantly to show elements in the bridge katas that appear in Suparinpei but aren't in the big three. How did they get there if Uechi Kanbun's top students who designed the bridge kata didn't have some exposure to Suparinpei?

One technique I caught but did not see discussed was the use of about three forearm strikes in Bill's Suparinpei. We don't have any of the forearm strikes in the three main kata but they do show in the forearm swings in kotektei and I believe in the older Don Kumite. This aplication of the strike that we use is called the Uechi block in which the assisting arm guards against the blocked kick sliding up.

:arrow: Second. There's a couple of points I'd like to contribute to the discussion on as to Uechi Kanbun Sensei's knowledge or lack thereof of Suparinpei.

I'd have to search my correspondence with Seizan Breyette for the exact language but the fact is that Uechi Kanbun was presented a certificate by Shushiwa that certified that he had learned all that could be taught. This does not mean most of what could be taught or some of what could be taught but ALL. Including Suparinpei. The Certificate is a primary source of evidence and supports the supposition that Uechi Kanbun did infact know and have knowledge of Suparinpei.

The Master Text or Uechi Kanei's kyohon book is a secondary source supporting the supposition that Uechi Kanbun did know Suparinpei. Now Master Uechi Kanei did not write the articles in the book which are a comprehensive and lengthly compilation of articles surrounding the cultural and social context of Uechi Kanbun's life as well as his accomplishments in furthering pangainoon karate. Uechi Kanei however did have editorial oversight of the Master Text and allowed to be printed all that it contained.

The text states: "With Kanbuns initiation into Shushiwa's school he learned the three basic Katas: Sanchin, Seisan, and Sanseiryu along with endless drills in body conditioning. In this dojo he and Mr. Matsuda were, it was said, to have learned one other Kata "Suparinpei," but very little is known of this.

The text goes on to state: "Both Kanbun and Tokusaburo [Matsuda] entered into this style together. It was a daily test to see who could find the most useful applications for each technique. The most difficult was in the use of techniques from Suparinpei. It was a long hard ten years to learn the basics of this style."

Finally, the kyohon states: If Kanbun had learned more about Suparinpei then maybe today it would be incorporated into the Uechi-Ryu Style."

This evidence, as reported, was possibly gleaned from communication with Uechi Kanbun's associate, Tokusaburo Matsuda, who had first hand knowledge of what Uechi Kanbun was exposed to in Shushiwas's school.

From Toyoma Sensei is another clue. Alan Dollar reports that Toyoma as a young boy overheard Uechi Kanbun reveal to Tomoyose Ryuko Sensei that he (Kanbun Uechi) had in fact been the individual who killed a farmer with a Cobra technique that he subsequently disguised as a Crane technique (probably the Crane strike in Sanseiryu).

No Cobra techniques appear in the Uechi big three canon but they abound in Suparinpei. Again, this is evidence that Uechi Kanbun had knowledge of techniques outside of the traditional Uechi exercises but which he largely but not entirely excluded from his teaching repetoir.

The evidence is my opinion strongly suggests that Uechi Kanbun did have knowledge of and did utilize techniques from a Suparinpei kata but that he did not teach the kata in its entirety possibly because of personal associations with some deadly applications of Cobra techniques.
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