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PostPosted: Sun Aug 21, 2005 12:11 am 
As I understand it, Aiki-Jitsu is Aikido without the peace and love stuff... but when I took it, it seemed pretty mild.


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 21, 2005 5:24 am 
Tony
no it isn't they are seperate arts, but what has happened is that some folks have done aikido and realised that it wasn't effective and started using kicks and punches with it then called it aiki-jutsu.you may have come across some of that.
there are lots of different Aiki-jutsu traditions the most famous is Daito-ryu, from which aikido is derived there is also Kaze arashi ryu which I did for a time. that has 5 seperate arts in it. Punching and striking, sword and knife, stick, fan and throwing and locking, and although they wear the hakamas it doesn't look like aikido at all.many of the aikido throws are done to not injure your opponent whereas in aiki jutsu they are done to inflict maximum damage....you shouldn't be able to do a breakfall from an aiki jutsu throw :lol:
n.b.
Aikido is a general term........and some folks in Aiki Jutsu think that ueshiba should have called his art " Ueshiba-ha aiki no jutsu"....and that it is rather bigheaded to call it Aikido.
Similarly there was a style of jui jitsu called "Judo" long before Kano's invention :wink:


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 21, 2005 11:15 am 
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Quote:
many of the aikido throws are done to not injure your opponent whereas in aiki jutsu they are done to inflict maximum damage....you shouldn't be able to do a breakfall from an aiki jutsu throw


Just curious. If you can't actually practice these throws because there is no breakfall for them, how do you know they work ?

Maybee you could do bathing suits and practice them into a pool's deep end or something.

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 21, 2005 11:15 am 
sounds like if you really want to learn Aikido for self defense, you need to go to Aiki Jutsu.


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 21, 2005 11:18 am 
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Tony it looks like we posted at the same time :D

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 21, 2005 11:42 am 
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These styles (mainly) all suffer from the same malady... You know the scene: The uke standing there in the frozen extended punch position waiting to be 'pretend maimed' by the instructor..

There has to be a bridge between the frozen punching man drill and the wild man in the street. This is the problem with much if not all of this stuff: There is simply no training progression that gradually takes the student from freezer to fryer..

You can't go from one extreme to the other and expect the moves, concepts, skills to translate (no matter how many times you do a 'bleeping' kata) unless there is a step by step building process that in the end cultivates, refines and tests realistic skills. If you don't have that then the student will have to be exceptionally gifted or lucky to make 90% of this stuff work.

Remember, that no matter how good or bad a style or technique might be that non-fighters are non-fighters, expect them to whoop ass on everyone except actual fighters.. ;)

Uechi as Aikido? Not in my book...! Perhaps Aikido as Uechi.. :lol:

BTW Tony: AIki-Jujitsu esp Daito Ryu in Japan is the "shizzle wit da fizzle" of Japanese arts, they are very exclusive and picky about who they let write them big fat checks for tuition. And I would expect the training in Japan to be just a tad tougher and better that what you might find here, if you can find genuine Daito-Ryu (multiple clans) in the US at all.

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 21, 2005 11:51 am 
JimHawkins wrote:
of Japanese arts, they are very exclusive and picky about who they let write them big fat checks for tuition. And I would expect the training in Japan to be just a tad tougher and better that what you might find here, if you can find genuine Daito-Ryu (multiple clans) in the US at all.


I'm not surprised... this was being taught in a health club. The Sensei was very good at it and knew just about everything there is to know about the stuff but I really didn't question his background or anything, I was just there to learn to locks and throws. It was a productive three months though... :D


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 21, 2005 12:44 pm 
Ben
You seem to be misunderstanding some of what I say about Aiki, I'm not saying don't do it :D . what I am saying is be careful not to buy into the B*llscitt, and there is loads of it :lol: All the big whirly throws that look so cool don't work because Joe public doesn't know how to do Ukemi waza like Aiki folks, if I get thrown by a white belt it will look a lot more impressive than if I throw him, if I get thrown I'll roll out of it, if he does he'll land like a bag of Sch*tt :wink:
look at the "unbendable arm" in aiki they will tell you to visualise a powerfull white light extending to the end of the Universe ....which is a load of cr*p.
also I don't like unrealistic attacks. Boxing has come to be my gold standard.....i like to think would my stuff work against a boxer.but I really prefer Chi-Na or WC or TC.........people won't race across a room to grab your hand :lol: .like they do in Aiki.
As to Aiki jutsu....I'll give an example of the difference between that and aikido,
somebody gets you in a rear strangle hold. in aikido you go into a horse stance and put right leg behind your attackers left leg and grab hold of his knees then pull up and he should fall backwards :lol:
however in Aiki jutsu you pull his legs to the right and he will breakfall using his head to your left :lol: :lol: 8)
both these moves must be executed reflexively as soon as you feel the attack you must move
I guess what I'm saying at the end of the day is a lot of the fighting in Aikido has been edited out..you can still see some of it but you have to look hard and that is the problem...if you think of it as moving yoga that's cool but if you try to equate it to boxing then you are just asking for trouble :roll:


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 21, 2005 10:38 pm 
Greetings-

One of the other differences is actual techniques. In Daito-ryu Aikijujutsu (at least as taught and propagated currently by Kondo Sensei) there are large catalog of techniques at different levels. The first level - shoden mokoroku contains 118 techniques divided into five sections: ikkajo, nikkajo, sankajo, yonkajo, and gokkajo. Within these sections are a set number of kata-like two person waza done either tachi, hanmi-handachi, or suwari. These can also be further subdivided by being omote, ura, or henka. The higher levels of Daito-ryu contain techniques as well that get more and more subtle - or aiki like. One of the levels is called Aiki no jutsu in fact. Ueshiba Sensei, when he founded Aikido, took a representative technique from each of the sections etc. and just used that against a myriad of attacks. There are other branches of Daito-ryu as well that may arrange their teaching syllabi differently. Examples of the different systems are:

Daito-ryu Aikijujutsu (as taught by Kondo who was taugh by Tokimune Takeda)

Daito-ryu Kodokai (founded by Kodo Horikawa, an early student of Sokaku Takeda, now headed by Inoue Sensei I think.....)

Daito-ryu Takumakai (founded by Takuma Hisa, an early student of both Sokaku Takeda and Morihei Ueshiba).

Daito-ryu Roppokai (founded by Seigo Okamoto, a student of Kodo Horikawa. His system teaches just the upper level "Aiki" waza. He did away with the Shoden Mokoroku.)

With all due respect. The fundamental difference between Aikido and Daito-ryu Aikijujutsu is one of syllabus and breadth of technique. Not necassarily one of harder vs. softer technique. Not a judgement on either art's merits - but the two are, when you look at their curriculum, fairly different.

I believe this also renders the discussion over "effectiveness" non sequitor as Aikido was founded on the premise of a way of peace and harmony, and Daito-ryu and its variants are classical arts meant to preserve a tradition of combat done under very disimalar situations than today.

-wes tasker


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 21, 2005 10:48 pm 
wes tasker wrote:
I believe this also renders the discussion over "effectiveness" non sequitor as Aikido was founded on the premise of a way of peace and harmony, and Daito-ryu and its variants are classical arts meant to preserve a tradition of combat done under very disimalar situations than today.

-wes tasker


Thats kind of what I was thinking also. But your right, Aikido, Uechi Ryu, Boxing, none of these are equipped to deal with a suicide bomber, hah hah...

Thats what the Remington 700 is for (I got mine in 7mm magnum)

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 21, 2005 11:26 pm 
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 22, 2005 10:07 am 
That'll bust a grape from afar.... no doubt about that one!


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 22, 2005 1:04 pm 
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All great calibers_ have a .270

But this is the all time favorite:

Weatherby _ German made by the legendary JP Sauer co.

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 22, 2005 1:19 pm 
thats a beauty Van..


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 30, 2005 4:35 am 
The OVERLOOK MARTIAL ARTS READER Vol 2 edited by John Donohue.

Page 85 from “Abundant Peace” by John Stevens

“The signboard at Morihei’s first dojo in Ayabe read Daito Ryu Akijutsu, but following his move to Tokyo and the subsequent founding of the Wakamatsu Dojo, his system was known as, among other things, Kobuta Aiki-Budo, Ueshiba Ryu Jujutsu, Tenshin Aiki-Budo, and finally from 1942, Aikido.”


:D


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