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PostPosted: Mon Aug 01, 2005 8:10 pm 
Ben
It is a fun art...but there 'll come a time when you realise that a lot of the stuff, principles and all won't work on the street. I've only done a litttle Daito-Ryu, so I cannot really comment on it......it is a lot more violent than Aikido.....or at least the stuff I was shown was. there is a lot of Daito -ryu in Hapkido and other Korean arts like Kuk sul..........and that is very effective :wink:


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 31, 2005 4:29 am 
The OVERLOOK MARTIAL ARTS READER Vol 2 edited by John Donohue.

Page 87

From “Abundant Peace” by John Stevens

“Morihei’s gradual ascent into the highest realms of pure ki an kokyu power had a deleterious effect on some of his later followers. In his final public demonstration, the phantomlike Morihei downed his partners by simply waving his hand or pointing his finger at them. Morihei, of course, had reached such a fluid stage after sixty years of solid training. Unfortunately many modern practitioners favour this ‘no touch’ approach, throwing each other about with a flick of the wrist or a cockeyed, off-balance toss of the shoulder. If your partner is going to fall down anyway, why worry about proper distancing, lack of vulnerability, or concentrated power?”


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 31, 2005 4:38 am 
The OVERLOOK MARTIAL ARTS READER Vol 2 edited by John Donohue.

Page 88

From “Abundant Peace” by John Stevens


“Morihei’s instruction was not systematic. He insisted, ‘Aikido has no techniques.’ That is, the movements are rooted in natural principles, not abstract or rigid formulas.”

Page 90

“Throughout his career, Morihei was constantly refining and expanding his art – ‘This old man must still train and train,’ he said not long before his death – and thus taught differently at different stages of his life. There is a definite continuum between prewar and postwar Aikido, but the techniques themselves evolved considerably. Morihei gave his students permission to film his techniques but warned, ‘Today’s techniques will be different tomorrow.” Hence, there is no standard Aikido; each of the direct disciples focused on those aspects he most readily understood and with which he had the most affinity, and then went on to develop an individual style based on his own experiences.”


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 31, 2005 12:24 pm 
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Quote:
Ben
It is a fun art...but there 'll come a time when you realise that a lot of the stuff, principles and all won't work on the street


Of course Jorvik. It's like Any MA. You pick through what you think will work for you in a real situation and refine those first. Become proficient in what works, and then try to refine the more difficult technical techniques.

I use shokens in my kata, but do I honestly believe I could down a foe with one??? 8O

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 31, 2005 1:50 pm 
“I use shokens in my kata, but do I honestly believe I could down a foe with one???”

This is a very good and honest question. 8)

The answer is to find a few friends of a slightly crazy bent and try shokens out on each other at varying levels of power. :lol:

You will find how to best make a Shoken that is of practical use for YOU and how to use it.

When this is done you may still wonder if you can down anyone but, you will know that if you could, then you could do it with a Shoken. :wink:


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 31, 2005 1:53 pm 
There are a number of ways to make a Shoken and different people can make different methods work, but for me I have found that the following allows me to hit as hard as I want:

Image


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 31, 2005 2:18 pm 
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Location: Virginia
.

But when the rubber hits the road who knows?

I do believe though that I can train it and train it and one day I'll wake up with a shoken that can do some serious damage.

Quote:
The answer is to find a few friends of a slightly crazy bent and try shokens out on each other at varying levels of powerLet me say that I feel a shoken can be used effectively.


:twisted: That is what I REALLY need.

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 31, 2005 2:31 pm 
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Joined: Sat May 14, 2005 12:22 pm
Posts: 73
Location: Quebec
I think the following video clip may illustrate Jorvik's point pretty well. The site is in French but:

http://www.aikidoquebec.com/Accueil.htm
Click on Vidéo Clips then check out the following...
Jyu Waza Suwari Waza

Not sure how well this would work if someone tried to kick him in the head instead of handing him their arm?


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Aug 31, 2005 9:29 pm 
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Joined: Wed Jul 09, 2003 12:20 pm
Posts: 2117
Location: Virginia
Quote:
Click on Vidéo Clips then check out the following...
Jyu Waza Suwari Waza

Not sure how well this would work if someone tried to kick him in the head instead of handing him their arm?


Yep pretty lame :roll:

He's obviously not a very realistyic trainer huh? Training from seiza is pretty obsolite IMHO, but some of those techniques could be modified to serve a person in a wheel chair eh?

Painting all Aiki with that brush is pretty far fetched. I've seen some pretty lame excuses of prearranged kumites in my time... doesn't mean I'd judge an enire karate system by that. You find all different types everywhere. Jorvik studies a very martial Tai Chi, the people who teach it im my town learned through a correspondence sourse and kater to the elderly and the New Age crowd and see it more as a dance than a martial art....***** :roll:

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Aug 31, 2005 11:20 pm 
Quote:
Tai Chi, the people who teach it im my town learned through a correspondence sourse and kater to the elderly and the New Age crowd and see it more as a dance than a martial art.


Why do you say that Ben, do they not train the makiwara?


Image


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Sep 01, 2005 4:31 am 
Quote:
“I use shokens in my kata, but do I honestly believe I could down a foe with one???”



Absolutley usefull , I train them on folks , I find them very usefull in illicitating a predertermined response , anywhere around the upper chest area usually opens the throat .

It pays to be a bit crazy :? :lol: :twisted:


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Sep 01, 2005 5:00 am 
That is because you are one of us Marcus! :D


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Sep 01, 2005 6:56 am 
:D :shocked!: 8) :lol: :wink:

I should of taken a pic of my chest after I first asked you to demo a shoken Rick , Most informative :lol:

cant wait to get back !!


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Sep 01, 2005 11:07 am 
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Joined: Wed Jul 09, 2003 12:20 pm
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Location: Virginia
I bet I could di a shoken that hurts like hell too guys, but I thought everyone here knew about the adrenaline dump....

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 01, 2005 1:38 pm 
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Location: NYC
Image

In this pic it seems only the pressure of the thumb pressing down supports the pointy index finger and so I cannot fathom how great power, let alone max power could be used. Not saying you can't but I don't see how.

Despite the fact that WCK has shokens in the forms etc, we never trained them. Ip Man tossed them out of the system when he began teaching in Hong Kong and replaced it with the also existing Chung Choi or vertical fist leading with the bottom pointy knuckle.

I cannot fathom use of the shoken *for me* but I have played with it a little and never liked it and I cannot apply any great power with this fist. I was taught that the thumb goes in behind the index finger supporting it. In any case I cannot use max power with hardly any fist compared to a palm heel because with the palm heel there is nothing to break or flex and the shoken seems the least stable of all the fists, to me.

There is a different version of this pointy thing from a Korean Art where the index finger (same knuckle) is used but the first part of the index finger is straight and aligned with the hand, kind of like a trigger finger position. With this I can easily poke holes in boxes, etc but I do not train it for SD.

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