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trying to get across Rick.

Anyone issuing a challenge, does so because the person he is challenging "has" a reputation.

Who challenges a "nobody"?

When the challenge is issued and when it is realized are two different and unique occurrences. A person doesn't happen to walk by a dojo and decides to challenge the person. Think of the thoughts you would have while you sleep on it, thought on it and after deciding to do it, going through the possibilities while walking into the arena.

Trust me.... you are pushing the negative thoughts away while trying to keep up your facade of confidence.

The mind conditioning is just as important as the physical conditioning. And... the person with the reputation has an advantage...

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GEM
"Do or do not. there is no try!"

George: Also a good point.

Disagree. It depends on the context of the challenge and who the challenger is and what and why he is there. Also there is more than one kind of challenge!

Among the infinite forces at work there is absolutely no guarantee that the 'master' will have any intimidation factor going for them any more than anyone else being challenged. Listen to the words written on the 'master threads' in distain of who some *envision* as the paper tiger who calls himself master - with great distain. Are "we" going to be intimidated by these 'masters' or are we going to belly laugh as they make way into the ring of honor with a swaggering stride?

The point is the whole reason the challenge was made is because the challenger thinks the challenged is full of crap and should be exposed, not because one secretly thinks he is a bad ass…

In this case the challenger makes the challenge because he is disgusted by the arrogant display of whom he feels is completely unworthy of the title 'master' and therefore is not only not intimidated but bloodthirsty and has no respect for this 'worthless fraud.'

Wong, Hawkins Cheung and some others used to ‘go fishing’ for talented martial artists, they went from school to school, master to master like one driving around looking for a good restaurant. 'Oh this one might have good food...' After having visited several of the eateries in the area and not being very impressed, one walks into the next place with near certainty that the food will be 'just as bad' or 'worse.' Not much of an intimidation factor here. Indeed finding a jewel of a restaurant is easier than finding a jewel of a martial art teacher and school and from his accounts I seriously doubt this truth has changed much since the old days.

Listen to how Laird has mentioned that he would like to get a ‘sample’ of what the teacher has to offer - go a couple of rounds, etc, some folks simply want to sample what the school has to offer – through friendly or not, challenges.

If you could 'beat' or embarrass the interested party then he would likely ask to be your student. In this case one is merely looking for the “real stuff” and loosing means that you found it so intimidation factor is dependant on the people and how salty the challenger is. There is just as much a chance of the ‘master’ being intimidated by the right challenger IMO.

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Shaolin
M Y V T K F
"Receive what comes, stay with what goes, upon loss of contact attack the line" – The Kuen Kuit

This was very interesting and as Asteer pointed out and I believe also that a fighter does not make a teacher. If he can pound anyone into the ground it does not translate into the teacher being able to show you in an effective manner how to do the same if need be. I guess it depends and is an individual thing.

For the part about restraint against a techinique we usually do resist and as the power of the technique increases we either tap or motion to show ok I feel that working good now. We never fake anything because it would not help us to become better.

I feel even the most powerful or best of teachers or fighters whichever they may be should not conduct himself or herself in such a manner as going around to seek out conflict. I believe martial arts should be effective and useful for self defense but should not be used to go around issuing challenges that very well could lead to that person being seriously injured or killed and not being able to be a student of the person who beat them.

I feel even if the challenger came out of the fight alright and was not seriously injured then I would personally not want to teach him or take him as a student because to me he just made himself known as someone who abuses the art and looks for trouble instead of looking for ways to avoid trouble.

Just to be honest and I think we can all tell if someone has the technique and ability to take us out of the ballgame without even having to fight. Just a simple demonstration from a master of a powerful toe kick to the inside of the thigh would be enough to tell me that I might not be able to weather that blow.

I respect everyone but I feel some simple demonstrations of power should be able to convince a would be challenger that it's not such a good idea. Plus guys let's be honest and ask ourselves how much pressure it really takes to crush someones throat and we all know that you don't have to be hercules or a known tough guy to beat someone of any size or ability.

Even if his arms are 22inches round his neck is still as soft as a babies bottom for the most part and he will still die with no breath like the rest of us. I think anyone who has to challenge another is someone who really doesn't believe in him or herself and lacks confidence.

Jeff

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Jeff

Oh and just one thing. Even if you talk about something like boxing you'll see many examples of people who have met in the ring multiple times because just as in anything else one might win on tuesday and the other might very well win on thursday. Boxers often have rematches and sometimes win or lose to the same opponent so if you're a boxer and you beat boxer A two out of three times does that make you a superior fighter in reality or more skilled or does it make you the winner of the day in the ongoing series of the unknown?

Then in another sense you have the george foremans of the world who were great fighters both at young and old ages. Muhammad Ali beat Foreman as a younger man but here is a question..If Ali wasn't sick today with Parkinsons how many of you think that Ali could beat Foreman in the ring today?....I don't think he could.

Foreman didn't become Ali's desciple he kept training as he always did and became his own champ and not somebody elses version of a champ. Lot's of intangibles in this I think.



Jeff

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Jeff

Hi Jeff:

I agree that good fighters do not always make the best teachers.

But if you are talking about mastering a system should you not be able to:

1. Understand it.
2. Apply it.
3. Transfer it.

To me you may be a good fighter but not a master. You might understand it but not be a master. You might be a skilled teacher but not a master.

To be a master you need to be competent at all three.

Does not mean you should not train with a good fighter or learn under a good teacher.

In the history of martial arts the travelling practitioner challenging schools to look for a teacher is a very different concept than what people perceive it as today.

Certainly some confidence or perhaps even arrogance is required; however, there was a true sense of searching fro martial knowledge.

Musashi did just that. He travelled seeking people who could teach him and at the same time tested his own ideas.

It was also common that the challenger had to fight the students first before he ever got a shot at the head of the school.

Uechi Kanbun Sensei commented in an interview that in China it was common to be challenged by martial artists if you opened a school and if you lost they took your student's fees, so you had better be able to walk the talk if you wanted to open a school.

Hi Rick,
Interesting topic to discuss and put out thoughts about though this one made me think about different aspects of all of it when it comes to these challenges and things of that nature. Makes for an interesting thread I must say.

Jeff

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Jeff

You bet it does, Jeff.

Doesn't this still happen today, but perhaps a little differently?

In my old school folks visiting on the right day would run into our dai-sihing, which means 'eldest brother.' He was known for always wearing a big smile, even under the worst circumstances..

Most visitors would simply sit, watch and ask questions. But some would announce that they had trained in X. That's all that was needed for our elder brother to gleefully ask them if they would like to demonstrate whatever it was that they did, they would be invited into the other room. If they accepted then anything could happen from a friendly demo or exchange to someone writhing on the floor in pain, still it happens and not always in a bad way. It's important to note though that half the reason for this, as I saw it, was simply that our elder brother was genuinely interested in seeing 'stuff' from other schools, he loved comparing and if needed performing, but from a purely martial art interest standpoint.. If you didn't speak up about you MA experience until after you joined you would still end up doing the demo for him, just later on in the week..

Seems to me that most folks who are into MAs, while maybe not looking for a challenge are indeed usually curious about the skills or nature of another's training, they like to see what someone else has and does and, yes even how what they do compares with it.. Not so much because they have something to prove or are insecure but just out of genuine martial curiosity.

Sometimes you get tested and challenged and you don't even realize it.. Sooner or later the student or the teacher is going to find out what you really can do and in the end the answer to the 'challenge' has been revealed - so I can appreciate the idea of getting this stuff out in the open and clearing the air right away. Refreshingly honest compared to all the BS and pretences that flies around supposed MAs today..no?

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Shaolin
M Y V T K F
"Receive what comes, stay with what goes, upon loss of contact attack the line" – The Kuen Kuit

Ive been involved in unofficial testing before .... would of been much better if it was just up front , some people get a little snotty when there tests fail ... man actually I can think of three times this has happened in a less than honest and friendly way ...

Martial artists are headases huh

You must also be cool. Even if you can do all those three but are still a dick, then you haven't mastered schit.

[quote="Stryke]
Martial artists are headases huh [/quote]

HAH HAH, ya think?

Yeah i sometimes think Tony , but seldom get away with it

hey i wrote headases , meant headcases ... hope no one thinks I`m fixated

as for the Master thing , you might be right , being cool maybe even more important than the other criteria .

I also think a master In karate should have a makiwara

HAH! Hey, a Uechi Ryu Master has plenty of those, they are always his students standing in Sanchin!