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 Post subject: Response Continuum
PostPosted: Tue Sep 06, 2005 6:47 pm 
Response Continuum


The response continuum is something that struck me reading a letter to the editor of BB magazine. The writer was a marine and commented that there is a distinct difference between how he is taught to respond in the military and how a civilian may need to respond in today’s world. (Although with forces now in occupation or peace keeping mode and dealing with non-combatants I wonder if this will change?)

The letter commented on the span of response a civilian may need.

It today’s dojo we need to be able to respond to all situation with appropriate levels of force. (This blends into the force continuum in other ways to be dealt with later.)

The continuum runs from no response or avoiding the fight to use of a lethal response.

Does our training cover the response continuum?

Should it?

When we talk about not engaging in a fight most schools will advise their students not to fight and to walk away.

But do you really discuss it?

There are a number of things that can happen in trying to avoid a fight.

There are a number of different ways to walk away from a fight and they have different psychological reactions for the student.

The next level up may involve control techniques where either non pain holds are use or pain compliance controls are used.

Does your school cover non abusive restraints?

Does it cover pain compliance restraints?

Should schools cover these?

And the continuum continues.

Thoughts so far?


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Sep 06, 2005 7:22 pm 
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I'm a big believer in what you're calling the Response Continuum Rick.
I learned about non-abusive restraints (aka non-lethal) techniques when my TKD instructor started teaching CDT. Since the class would be large for the seminar but very small for the weekly classes so we got to work different things and see what worked and what didn't. Having a couple spec ops guys show up from time to time helped too, their pain thresholds were much higher than the rest of us so you really had to sink a technique in to make it work.

One thing that I noticed was how many times when someone who was a good fighter had to handle someone without causing physical injury to them, they got the crap knocked out of them. I watched a little 100 pound female slap a strong 180 pound guy all over the place. He was hit so many times he actually turtled. This same guy had no problem handling some big ol high school football players but that little gal just knocked the snot out of him. He just didn't know what to do and froze.

I don't train CDT anymore but I still train with the Response Continuum in mind. So I'd say yes it's important to teach pain compliance and control, and also when they are appropriate and when they aren't.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Sep 06, 2005 8:29 pm 
Good post Mike. :D


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Sep 07, 2005 4:54 am 
Ok good thread , but I dont know how much you need to verbalise it .

Many pain techniques are just variations of breaks etc , or chokes , gouges etc , compliance should be backed up by an escalation if needed .

so when training an arm bar or something arent we training the gammit of possibilitys ? .

A choke etc , 5 second sleepys or hang on and fatal ?

as for striking , 1 punch kills ? not likely huh .

I dont really beleive in a different toolbox , but differing intent/intensity .

for anyhting to work you should have dominance , the outcome should be a factor of your intent , not a factor of technique .

so yes we should be aware , but we shouldnt have different responses , just differing intent .


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Sep 07, 2005 5:24 am 
Marcus:

“Many pain techniques are just variations of breaks etc , or chokes , gouges etc , compliance should be backed up by an escalation if needed .

so when training an arm bar or something arent we training the gammit of possibilitys ?.”

Pain compliance techniques are a less exuberant joint break movements so training arm bars etc is training pain compliance EXCEPT you break and move on where in control you must learn how to maintain control applying judicious pain.

“A choke etc , 5 second sleepys or hang on and fatal ?”

Yes I agree totally.

”as for striking , 1 punch kills ? not likely huh .”

Even in striking there are levels to use.

”I dont really beleive in a different toolbox , but differing intent/intensity .”

Now I don’t see it as a different tool box simply what should be in mine.

”for anyhting to work you should have dominance , the outcome should be a factor of your intent , not a factor of technique . “

I agree totally.

”so yes we should be aware , but we shouldnt have different responses , just differing intent”

Different intent yes but you need different expressions of that intent as well.

Small but good discussion. :D


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Sep 07, 2005 5:37 am 
Arent we just talking levels of aggression or force Rick ?

Maybe i`m just being arrogant in assuming theres only so many ways to lock someone up effectively .

It`s an understanding of physical structure and how things dont work , then the decision how far to take that .



Quote:
Even in striking there are levels to use.


maybe targeting Rick , or are you advocating hitting with less commitment ? , I figure if I have to resort to striking then my aim is at the least neurological shutdown . My objective is to impede motor function .

If it`s not appropriate to hit full force I dont at this point see why i would hit at all .


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Sep 07, 2005 12:54 pm 
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In CDT they figured which version of a technique would cause the least amount of damage if any. So certain types and certain versions of locks are avoided for a low level encounter (drunken uncle scenerio) just in case you go too hard you still won't break something. The thing about using these type of locks is that they allowed us to go close to all out, not have to worry about how uke would fall, uke could fully resist and still not risk injury and you could improvise. I started working some of the takedowns and restraints into my sparring during the TDK class against non-CDT people and they worked well.

Marcus, there are safer ways of choking someone than others. It's good to know both just in case. Same with joint locks/breaks. :)

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 Post subject: Stupid Question?
PostPosted: Wed Sep 07, 2005 4:20 pm 
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Joined: Sat May 14, 2005 12:22 pm
Posts: 73
Location: Quebec
This may be a stupid question, but here goes...

What is CDT?

Adam


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Sep 07, 2005 5:05 pm 
http://www.cdt-training.com/cdt%20new/C ... %20CDT.htm


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Sep 07, 2005 5:09 pm 
Quote:
If it`s not appropriate to hit full force I dont at this point see why i would hit at all
To capitalize on the body's reaction to the strike. The strike may move the person into a better position, ie:to pop the chin up so you can apply leverage across the throat etc.

When might you want to do something like this? Well when your uncle has had a few too many at a family wedding and starts trouble. You don't want to break his jaw. But you might what to pop him and lock him.

Or possibly your a door man , unconscious bleed patrons are not great for business and you may end up wasting your time in court defending your self. And do you really want to waste your day off dealing with the clown a 2nd time.

Then there are those basement type establishments, do you want to help the paramedics help carry the fat drunks up those steps. Better to pop em and lock em and let them use their own legs to ascend to the street.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Sep 07, 2005 6:04 pm 
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Laird has got it right. Strikes aren't just big punches to knock someone out. In JuJutsu we did atemi to stun or get a reaction out of someone, my friend uses techniques similar to Uechi pointy things to set someone up, and of course there is the good old bitch slap. None of which will really injure the person.

What is CDT? It's one of the levels of Tom Patire's system mainly focused low level threats and with an eye on legal liability. Not bad for what it is and it gives good options for the low end of the force continuum but you still need a core art.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Sep 07, 2005 7:36 pm 
I guess you guys are right , but i dont think of this stuff , or plan it , and it`s not Mushin :lol:

To me this is a bit of a slippery slope , It sniffs of over confidence , and IMHO if you can do such things you will , no need to go overboard .

Ive worked a few doors , limited , but have helped folks out , it`s common sense what you can and cant do ? , Isnt it ?

I guess the way i`m looking at it`s a bit off since I see your point , nothing wrong with a good slap .

I think it`s mostly a time equation wether or not you can subdue someone with minimal force , and your discussing interupts , but these are higher percentage techniques and you have to be confident before you employ .

My stalls , My favourite is a foot sweep , just to distract the mind , and this is from point fighting 8O , latch on and go from there , but i`ll do it in either scenario .

lots to think about .....

softer striking to me seems an escalation , youve either gone there or you havent , i dont consider a push or sweep a strike as they dont mentally register that way to me .

:roll: :? :lol:


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Sep 07, 2005 9:08 pm 
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Good points Marcus.You would think it's common sense but few people war game their way through the full range of situations from low threat to high. Most think about being attacked by a gang in an ally but don't think about the hothead in a movie theater. Also hink about what the average sensei is teaching and how that fits, if at all, with the force continuum. One punch, one kill? Eye gouge? How does that work when you have to separate two drunk friends? What if they're two drunk female friends? You don't want to hurt them and you don't want to get hurt more than you have to. But you will hardly ever hear that discussed in the average martial arts school.

Quote:
My stalls , My favourite is a foot sweep , just to distract the mind , and this is from point fighting , latch on and go from there , but i`ll do it in either scenario .
I really agree with you on this. I focused on CDT for about a good year along with the smash and bash karate I was doing. One day the light bulb went off and I realized that I was trying to develope two skill sets. I started looking for techniques that would work in either situation or were flexible enough to be soft or hard with a small change so that things were more blended. That's one of the criterea I use for what I keep as base techniques and what I keep for special occaisions. :D

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Sep 07, 2005 9:29 pm 
Good stuff Mike where on the same page :D


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Sep 08, 2005 2:57 am 
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It took me a few years to get to that page Marcus. :lol: And you are right about the slippery slope. The other problem is what to do with the BG once you have him in complience and you don't have help? You may have to cold cock him just to get away.

Rick, how do you teach the Response Continuum in your school? Any particular techniques or training methods?

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