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PostPosted: Wed Sep 07, 2005 1:56 pm 
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Mr Hawkins,

Is Chi Sao something that is transferable to another style. For example, as someone who practices Uechi, could I learn Chi Sao using the Uechi system or would I have to learn WC from the beginning to be able to learn Chi Sao?

Thanks,
Adam


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 07, 2005 2:37 pm 
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Asteer wrote:
Is Chi Sao something that is transferable to another style.


Yes, the concepts are, some of the tools/structure is, but there are some differences. For the animal folks.. WCK is heavy on Snake, it's Snake and Crane, whereas Uechi as far as I know is mainly Crane, Tiger and Dragon, so while there are lots of similarities there are also lots of differences such as an emphasis on nasty seizing and tearing type 'splitting' traps in Uechi. WCK Chi Sao does not use this kind of seizing to destroy tissue to my knowledge. So if you wanted to get a more accurate feel for where Uechi's inside trapping stuff, a system like White Crane, White Eyebrow or Southern Mantis might yield more style specific flavor if you can find someone who knows their energy drills and is willing to teach it. But this may be difficult to come by.

Asteer wrote:
For example, as someone who practices Uechi, could I learn Chi Sao using the Uechi system


Well WCK Chi Sao isn't in the Uechi system so you would need to get some kind of instruction from hopefully a highly qualified WCK person..

No doubt that you would be able to apply what you learned to expand your understanding and use of Uechi. But to learn the skills of actual WCK Chi Sao you'd have to go through some WCK training progression based on what the person teaching you required.

It is possible to just learn "Chi Sao" with no preliminary base work but the result won't be as good and you'd need to find someone willing to train you that way. Learning Chi Sao without an experienced teacher working with you hands on is worth exploring but extremely limited.

HTH

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M Y V T K F
"Receive what comes, stay with what goes, upon loss of contact attack the line" – The Kuen Kuit


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 07, 2005 2:49 pm 
JimHawkins wrote:
Well WCK Chi Sao isn't in the Uechi system so you would need to get some kind of instruction from hopefully a highly qualified WCK person..


Yeah, but if you show it to Uechi people they'll say "oh yeah, we do that in Uechi"... like all is Uechi and Uechi is all, but when Uechi people do it, they say "Thats not Uechi"! WTF?


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 07, 2005 4:14 pm 
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JimHawkins wrote:
Well WCK Chi Sao isn't in the Uechi system so you would need to get some kind of instruction from hopefully a highly qualified WCK person..
HTH


Thanks for your insight Mr Hawkins. Do you have any tips or tricks as to figuring out whether a WCK instructor is good or not. There are a couple of guys near my area who offer Wing Chun, but I just don't know about the quality. One of the schools offers every Chinese style under the sun as far as I can tell. I would love to explore Chi Sao and try to apply it to Uechi, but would want to make sure that I was learning it right...

(PS I guess this has gotten a bit off topic)


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 08, 2005 4:55 am 
Asteer -- no worries about the off topic because it is a good one.


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 08, 2005 8:57 am 
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Asteer wrote:
Do you have any tips or tricks as to figuring out whether a WCK instructor is good or not. There are a couple of guys near my area who offer Wing Chun, but I just don't know about the quality.


It is tough to know quality WCK if you aren't too familiar with it and few schools in my experience are perfect. I have changed what I feel is right and wrong lots of times and different folks will invariably have different views, but Chi Sao should be a major training focus, watch for that. Also, you should expect many differences from what you are used to, WCK folks' views on training details are often quite different from what you'll get/hear from some karate folks, don't let it throw you.

I'd suggest asking the teacher what the training progression is; how much importance is placed on Chi Sao training; How 'traditional' or 'not traditional' they feel they are and why; What his lineage is and what the objectives of the training are at their school; the cost of dues and any additional costs for tests etc., ask if you can watch a class.

See if what they offer matches up with what you are looking for and how you feel about the folks you talk to. You can look over some of the posts I've done on WCK or Chi Sao and see how they compare.

I also suggest posting your impressions of the schools in question here and we can give you some feed back. Got any links?

Sunny Tang aka Dun Wah is one of the oldest students of my late teacher, he began his training in WCK back in the 60s and has a school in Canada and several of his students also have schools around Canada, though not sure if one would be near you or not, still you can keep an eye out for folks who may be connected with his line.

Do you have any particular goals in mind other than simply "learning Chi Sao?"

Asteer wrote:
One of the schools offers every Chinese style under the sun as far as I can tell.


This would put me off too, but you never know and nothing to loose by going and checking them out.. Is there a Chinatown near where you are?

In the meantime I'll look around online and see what I can find..

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Shaolin
M Y V T K F
"Receive what comes, stay with what goes, upon loss of contact attack the line" – The Kuen Kuit


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 08, 2005 10:54 am 
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Found this guy:

http://www.allmasters.ca/sifuangu.html

He apparently was a student of my sihing Sunny Tang and also apparently has studied other Shaolin systems as well. Not saying this is it by a long shot BUT this guy may have additional insight into Uechi issues...

------------------------

Makes me laugh though I was thinking that if I was looking I'd simply ask if I could Chi Sao with a few folks at these places.. Sounds like a challenge no? :lol:

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Shaolin
M Y V T K F
"Receive what comes, stay with what goes, upon loss of contact attack the line" – The Kuen Kuit


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 08, 2005 11:00 am 
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Mr Hawkins,

Near me, there is an instructor who studied with the following guy.
Quote:
Denis Shink was born in Québec City in 1957 and began to practise martial arts in 1964 with Sensei J.G. Tremblay in the Shito-ryu style. It was thus at an early age that he embarked on the path of discipline, respect, loyalty, and mental and physical development required to learn and master an art. Reading French magazines and viewing a report awakened his interest in the Chinese martial arts, which were little known in Québec City at the time. With no traditional Chinese schools to turn to, his search was not easy, but he finally met a master who, seeing his determination, agreed to teach him. Thus began his entry into the world of the Chinese martial arts.

Sifu Tan Wu Chen taught him the Wu Dang style, a Chinese martial art, little known in the Western world, that originated on Mount Wu Dang. For years, he trained intensively and regularly, learning the rudiments of “Kung Fu” and acquiring a solid foundation in several traditional styles: Sil Lum, Baji, Lama, Mi Tsung, Long Fist, Tong Long and Tai Chi San Feng. His master then returned to China. At that time, he began lessons with Victor Nabhan, a teacher of Wu Style Tai Chi and student of Sifu Li Lita of Berkeley, California.


In 1975, he moved from Québec City to Montréal. He continued his martial arts study and met Sifu Ma Yuk Ping. Through his master Tam Lei, Sifu Ma Ping was of the line of Yip Man (who taught Bruce Lee). With Sifu Ma Ping, Denis not only mastered Chinese techniques, but learned Chinese culture: language, writing, medicine and philosophy. He learned Wing Chun in its entirety, as well as Dragon, Pak Mei, White Crane and Tai Chi.

In 1978, he gave a demonstration at the China pavilion for the Chinese ambassador. On the recommendation of Sifu Tan Wu Chen, he took part in the World Championship in Toronto, a private competition lasting three days. The matches were supervised by the World Chinese Martial Arts Association (W.C.K.F.A.). After 45 matches, he was declared world champion, a title he kept for five years


This is the website : http://www.institutyveslaprise.com/menu-en.html

My goal really would be to learn some complements to Uechi, such as Chi Sao. I am a 1000 kilometers from my Sensei and from any other Uechi that I know of, so some kind of "martial contact" would be good for me. I have always thought the clips I have seen of Chi Sao and even Tai Chi push hands are facinating. For someone like myself, would it be better to try to arrange a few private sessions with a WCK instructor?


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 08, 2005 12:32 pm 
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Call me Jim please. :)

Private le$$on$? Unless you feel strongly about wanting a private intro then I would say no, you do not need private lessons. Also later on in training you will need lots and lots of people to train Chi Sao and other drills with. Good Chi Sao training depends on having a good variety of different folks to play with, tall, short, fat, skinny, strong, weak, advanced, and not so advanced, etc.. In other words one person no matter how good in Chi Sao is not enough IMO to make your training complete - in WCK you need all your brothers and sisters to make your training complete and rewarding..!

Honestly, I cannot tell much from looking at the sites.. Few of these places put much out there in the way of video that might actually be telling...

The idea of having 12 or whatever number of different styles taught makes me uneasy but I cannot rule out good WCK. I think the best thing you could do is to go visit those schools that you feel are close enough and see what there is to see, listen to what they have to say, and ask lots of questions. If you walk into a good school and get to watch folks train you should be impressed with their skills, and also with how they conduct themselves. See how you feel about those places and afterward, if you can, come back here and share your impressions with us..

It wouldn't hurt to dig around on the net and read up on WCK or ask more questions here when you think of them or feel free to PM me if you wish. Once you get familiar with what information is out there and what's in your area hopefully you'll be comfortable making your own choice.. If I find some good info I'll post it here or send it to you.

_________________
Shaolin
M Y V T K F
"Receive what comes, stay with what goes, upon loss of contact attack the line" – The Kuen Kuit


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 08, 2005 5:48 pm 
Well I've just started at a Wing Chun school, and it was quite a surprise. it was only basic movements of the form followed by Chi-sau, emphasis was on being soft and economical....The real surprise was the sifu, apart from the fact that he was a little over 5ft and must of weighed about 80lbs.he was blind.........I know it sounds like something out of a movie, but it is true :lol: ....there were only two other pupils a chinese and a guy who was about 6ft 2 and in peak physical condition.......and the little blind Sifu bounced him around like a ball :lol:
Now I've done Wing-Chun before, but there is wing chun and there is Wing Chun........(those two guys fighting are nothing special in WC circles i.e. leung ting ( his pupil emin Botepze) and william cheung.in fact I've never heard anything good said about either but that's my opinion)
the stuff that I was taught before originated from leung ting and compared to the stuff I learned that night was very poor, the little blind sifu has been to Hong Kong and trained with the Ip family and his sifu was taught directly by them .but his real name is in doing Chi-Kung.......I'll keep you posted on how I go :wink:


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Sep 08, 2005 6:22 pm 
jorvik wrote:
by them .but his real name is in doing Chi-Kung.......I'll keep you posted on how I go :wink:


Good luck to you Jorvik! I'm kind of interested in it myself... Jim giving me the bug!


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Sep 08, 2005 7:27 pm 
well we will feed the bug then, hears a longer clip of Gary Lam

http://www.garylamwingchun.com/GaryLam.wmv

Better get thicker mats on the walls Rick :wink:


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Sep 08, 2005 10:09 pm 
He's ok...but it's scary how these guys can control you so easily with so little movement 8O
I did TC for just this reason..............I've got a dodgy hip,I'm over wieght....and I drink to excess..so I needed something else ( aside from a snubnose.38...which I can't have).to keep me happy.can't say I found it in TC................but WC or the way it is taught by this guy....well it's a totally different ball game.or as our old friend Sherlock would say "The Games afoot" :lol:


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Sep 09, 2005 12:52 am 
That guys cool as hell! I like the padded walls for training... Dana would probably love those techniques, hah hah


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Sep 09, 2005 2:00 am 
Folks ive trained with always said I needed to be in a padded room ... Now I understand !!!! :D

as long as that middle finger gesture still means i`m number 1 8)


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