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 Post subject: LV-kick
PostPosted: Tue Sep 13, 2005 3:30 am 
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Joined: Thu Sep 23, 1999 6:01 am
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Location: on the path.
This is something completely new to me, I've just been introduced to it. I'm hoping some more experienced UechiKa can share some training angles or relate their experiences as they learned it.
For lack of a better word, I call it the LV-kick for "Low Velocity" kick.

Some background:
All the kicking techniques I've learned so far have employed foot velocity as a major component in energy delivery. Different forms, stances and mechanics were involved, for sure, but in the end foot velocity played a major role in energy delivery.
I was actually getting really quite good at this, particularly my side thrust kick.
Then along comes Uechi revelation number (how many, now?)
**************************************************
Imagine a hand grenade tossed into a group of the enemy.
It's metal and it weighs a couple of pounds. If it hits someone and doesn't explode, there will be some damage, but not much. It doesn't rely on any acceleration or velocity to do damage, it just has to get there and THEN the damage occurs.

Such is the LV kick.
In this kick the ONLY velocity required is the amount to get the foot onto the target. THEN the damage occurs in the "explosion".

The "explosion" is the part I'm learning, but it's not the hip or any rotation. It's a pulse sent down the limb from the body centre and delivered through the focused toes, which, conveniently, I'm now learning how to form.

This concept is blowing my mind. It's the wildest Uechi thing I've encountered in my training so far.
I must have missed all the discussion on this which surely took place before my introduction to the forums.

Can anyone dig up some past thoughts on it?
I think it would make a great topic.

NM




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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Sep 13, 2005 4:30 am 
Sounds like Fajing ?


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Sep 13, 2005 10:14 am 
Is this for real Marcus? What is it?


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 Post subject: LV-Kick
PostPosted: Tue Sep 13, 2005 1:40 pm 
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Joined: Mon Sep 12, 2005 12:35 pm
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Odd......Ive been in Uechi many years and have never heard of a LV Kick? .....it sounds to me that your instructor is teaching you something that has been an add on to the style (nothing wrong with that if it works)....Probably something that was learned in another style and passed on (more than likely). As I mentioned though if it works and can be effective,adapt it and train it to others maybe it will catch on ;) *its always nice to have an edge*

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Sep 13, 2005 3:59 pm 
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I never heard of it either... :?

Sounds like some kind of positional advantage is being used.. What is the target if any and can you go into more detail on application?

Pics would be good.. :D

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"Receive what comes, stay with what goes, upon loss of contact attack the line" – The Kuen Kuit


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Sep 13, 2005 6:17 pm 
I have no idea about it , but sounded similar in theory to short range punching etc , to be honest i`m a sceptic , but If Neil says he`s seen/felt it .


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Sep 14, 2005 3:15 am 
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I made up the TERM "LV-kick" to describe it, (Low Velocity); I thought I had encountered something well known, except to me.

Stryke my friend, you are right about Fajin and short-range power.
(For Forum readers, "Fajin" is the subject of an article on this site, and refers to instant explosive power with no windup. It is by David Elkins I believe.)

But the difference here is that Fajin can be employed to launch a conventional, high-velocity kick or strike as well.

In the kick that I refer to, the Fajin is employed UPON CONTACT and generates the short-range power Stryke refers to. Kind of like a "no-inch kick".
Prior to that, it's just lifting the leg and "placing" it (extremely quickly!) on the opponent's body.
There is no intention to generate impact velocity.

Just like someone tossing a grenade in your lap. The impact or weight of the grenade itself might do some very minor damge, but it is the explosion a micro-second later that actually does the job.
Lobbing the grenade (putting the foot on the target) is almost effortless and requires minimal energy. It's ONCE IT LANDS that the energy is deployed.

What it felt like to me was that someone had lightly but quickly placed the end of a pole on my guts and then suddenly, explosively rammed it into me AS SOON as it was placed.

Reducing the delay between placing and exploding, and working on the "exploding" part itself is what I'm trying to get the hang of.


Sorry I can't post pictures, but what good would they be anyway? The written descriptions are more detailed. All you'd see in a picture would be a stop-action picture or sequence of a conventional-looking kick.

QUESTION FOR JIM HAWKINS:
I know in Wing Chun you employ techniques where you "stick to" the opponent. Do you have any strikes that are done from the "stuck-to" (sorry!) position -- where you are ALREADY in contact with the opponent and deliver a "no-inch" strike?

The"kick" I'm describing is like that: just get your foot on the opponent's body as quick as you can, THEN kick, using a convulsive body movement.

Remember I've only just been introduced to this, I'm VERY slowly learning how to do it.
I thought it was old stuff you guys took for granted, maybe it's not.

NM

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Sep 14, 2005 3:40 am 
is it like a time on target energy transfer? is the strike left in place to allow the shock wave to travel deep?


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Sep 14, 2005 4:03 am 
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From Laird:
"is it like a time on target energy transfer? is the strike left in place to allow the shock wave to travel deep?"

Nope.
I'm thoroughly familiar with that concept -- use it all the time.
That's a high-velocity kick "dug-in" rather than retracted. The "dig-in" allows the forward momentum from the velocity to transfer into the opponent.

What I'm referring to is a really "no-velocity" kick where the only SPEED is just to get your foot onto the opponent's body. THEN the real KICK occurs.
The trick is to get the foot-placement and the KICK to occur "bangBANG"like one action.

Here's the difference:
In a "time on target" strike the initial objective is to launch a REALLY fast kick then "plant" it into the opponent to "deliver the goods" energy-wise.

In the LV (my-term) kick there is no attempt to build energy in getting the foot to the opponent.
The energy occurs immediately AS the foot contacts the opponent, by means of a fluid muscular pulse sent out from the body-centre and delivered VIA the leg/foot.

BTW, in attempting to learn this I have cracked my partners several times in the jewels just getting my foot up to them! The reason is that I am no longer "chambering" the foot, and their jewels are in my way as I get my foot onto their body. Too bad, eh?!
I'm not bending my knee as I lift the foot, because that would sweep my foot back. I'm just lifting, planting and Fajin'ing!

(And not abandoning my hard-learned velocity-style kicking either, in other drills!)

NM

NM

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Sep 14, 2005 4:37 am 
Good stuff and interesting concept Neil .

Ive played with what I call jamming in kicks , which seems a related subject , IMHO like short range punches it`ll never be as strong as momentum aided technique .. but it does ad a little something .

IMHo this does come from mechanical advantage and positioning though , while there is little momentum there is a lot of loading .

Laird , i`d use my short range side kicks as an example of a low velocity kick . Any speed used is actually in lifting the leg , there is in fact little momentum in the kick .

However the position and setup allows an explosion through the target .

However it`s the loaded leg that allows this .

I can do it with mae geri etc mawashi etc , but its all about exploding from the loaded position .

Sound similar Neil , or are we talking different things ?

I can do a short clip if were on the same page , try and kick a wall down ;) , and i do need a few inches from a target , but i guess its low velocity ....


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Sep 14, 2005 4:50 am 
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Forgive me Neil, if I play devil's advocate on this.

<btw: the no distance idea is addressed in this WCK idiom:
"The arm is a nail and the body is the hammer.">

2Green wrote:
In the LV (my-term) kick there is no attempt to build energy in getting the foot to the opponent.


What's the advantage to not using the space for generation of power? Do you think there is more power in the LV?

2Green wrote:
The energy occurs immediately AS the foot contacts the opponent, by means of a fluid muscular pulse sent out from the body-centre and delivered VIA the leg/foot.


Is this like a thrust at all? Is the target going to stop their forward momentum?

What is the target?

2Green wrote:
I'm not bending my knee as I lift the foot, because that would sweep my foot back.


2Green wrote:
BTW, in attempting to learn this I have cracked my partners several times in the jewels just getting my foot up to them! The reason is that I am no longer "chambering" the foot, and their jewels are in my way as I get my foot onto their body. Too bad, eh?!


This sounds like jam city here.

I personally would never ever lift my leg straight up. In WCK the leg is not chambered per se but the knee is bent and fires on the way out, but then again we like leg to leg contact...

What range is the kick used in and is there any footwork used?

Have you seen it used on someone in sparring who is moving and jamming?

2Green wrote:
I'm just lifting, planting and Fajin'ing!


If the lift motion is not part of the FIRE 'action' then there appears to be two parts to the move, as opposed to a single snap or thrust which would seem to use more time... Is there no way to put the whole movement together so that it can be faster and more economical?

2Green wrote:
Sorry I can't post pictures, but what good would they be anyway?


Well I’d like for someone to try it on me ideally... :lol: But with a pic or pics we could see the mechanics and how the move uses distance among many other things, even better in video and still better in person...

2Green wrote:
QUESTION FOR JIM HAWKINS:
I know in Wing Chun you employ techniques where you "stick to" the opponent. Do you have any strikes that are done from the "stuck-to" (sorry!) position -- where you are ALREADY in contact with the opponent and deliver a "no-inch" strike?


I do appreciate the idea you are discussing here but this is a worst case scenario in WCK.. Fajing or no fajing the more distance you have to generate power the more damage you can do (unless you have really strong chi) :roll: and major damage is going to require a bit more power most of the time.

Yes, if there is no distance we do and can use a no inch punch or palm. Done under the chin you might be able to get away with it especially if you use a half clinch with the other hand. But to other less weak parts of the body, depending on the person we only expect to buy time with such a no inch strike, stunning, and into the center of gravity to steal balance and buy that half second needed to convert into closer range elbow fajing or what have you.

Now there are kicks like the 'stomp' kick where you place the foot on the side or rear side of the leg and then stomp or a cross step jam that places the foot in the air to jam; But this kick you describe, I can’t really fathom it’s application.

_________________
Shaolin
M Y V T K F
"Receive what comes, stay with what goes, upon loss of contact attack the line" – The Kuen Kuit


Last edited by JimHawkins on Wed Sep 14, 2005 7:17 am, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Sep 14, 2005 6:08 am 
Image

:roll: :multi: :multi:

Just kidding. Neil what is your hip doing during this kick?


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Sep 14, 2005 6:11 am 
Not the hip Laird :roll: , whats the Qua doing !!!!

the hips not as important ;) 8)

Laird , you`ve got mail !!!

hey Jim i`m gonna have to disagree on this one , i see it usefull as a training concept , to coordinate the body , As usefull as the 1 inch punch anyhow . Something to enhance that momentum technique 8)


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Sep 14, 2005 6:19 am 
Here's a clip of Marcus demonstrating short kicks. Is this anything like what your doing Neil?


http://banffuechiryu.tripod.com/no_range.wmv


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Sep 14, 2005 6:29 am 
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Stryke wrote:
hey Jim i`m gonna have to disagree on this one


Disagree on which point?

I'd bet you wouldn't dare lift your leg with a straight knee in sparring or fighting Marcus... :)

Stryke wrote:
As usefull as the 1 inch punch anyhow . Something to enhance that momentum technique 8)


Well the one inch punch is the same as the three inch, also the same as the 8 inch and also the same as the zero inch... Guess which one offers the least power?

On the other hand Neil has said that his is a straight leg lift placement with two parts and done only from zero distance and I assume this is supposed to be a combative move not a training device..

If you can put the two together with a concept in application and make it work against good fighters then that's one thing..

I'm a skeptic too mate.. :)

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Shaolin
M Y V T K F
"Receive what comes, stay with what goes, upon loss of contact attack the line" – The Kuen Kuit


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